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Mauricio Pellegrino: In or Out?


Bad Wolf

Should He Stay or Should He Go?  

508 members have voted

  1. 1. Should He Stay or Should He Go?



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I don't want the manager to be a dictator but I also don't want the manager to be a doormat. Puel was dismissed because neither the fans nor the players wanted him there any longer. Pellegrino seems to be going the same way. Although he hasn't shown me he can turn it around and get us playing exciting football, I am hesitant to grant the players the right to basically go on strike to get what they want.

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Times change and sacking a manager isn't the drastic step it used to be. Having said that I wouldn't change him unless it was for something that excited and united the club to it's fanbase. It might be Potter, Bosz or the blades manager but someone with an identity and a way about them. This might differ with the proclaimed "Southampton Way" but it seems that has been caught and passed by several of the clubs in the division. It needs to adapt to circumstances or be left behind

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Imagine if he turns into a good manager for us...

 

Everyone will be made up. I've never understood this thinking that you can't change your mind, i doubt any Saints fan wants him to do badly, most want him to be good as it's means we are.

 

Sadly nowadays there's this really backwards belief that you can't change your mind on things and everything's black and white. It's f*cking bizarre if you ask me.

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You've been around for a long time. Did you approve of the Wigley and Gray sackings, or did you think they deserved more time?

 

Gray had 19 games (win % 31.58) Wigley had 17 games (win % 17.65). MP has had 13 games. Perhaps ask me again if he gets to 19?

 

By the way Pearson managed us for 14 games with a win % of only 21.43 - much worse than Gray - but there many who were mortified when he was sacked so go figure.

 

Weren't both Gray and Wigley promoted from within and not experienced managers? I would imagine that counts against them when making a decision to keep them or not early on. There are plenty of managers who have had poor starts and have gone on to better things, just as there are plenty of managers who have had good starts only to end up getting the bullet - Ranieri being a prime example. Not one of us knows what goes on behind the scenes. If the club feels that he warrants more time I am sure he will get it. Either way, it is better the club makes the decision rather than a bunch of internet warriors who have absolutely zero experience of running a club and for whom firing is the only solution the moment things aren't perfect.

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Gray had 19 games (win % 31.58) Wigley had 17 games (win % 17.65). MP has had 13 games. Perhaps ask me again if he gets to 19?

 

By the way Pearson managed us for 14 games with a win % of only 21.43 - much worse than Gray - but there many who were mortified when he was sacked so go figure.

 

Weren't both Gray and Wigley promoted from within and not experienced managers? I would imagine that counts against them when making a decision to keep them or not early on. There are plenty of managers who have had poor starts and have gone on to better things, just as there are plenty of managers who have had good starts only to end up getting the bullet - Ranieri being a prime example. Not one of us knows what goes on behind the scenes. If the club feels that he warrants more time I am sure he will get it. Either way, it is better the club makes the decision rather than a bunch of internet warriors who have absolutely zero experience of running a club and for whom firing is the only solution the moment things aren't perfect.

 

Go figure what pal? We were in freefall when Pearson took over after the Gorman-Dodd experiment. Were you at the Rovers cup game?

 

It's these dim, contextless, invariably patronising statements that make you such a joke on here.

Edited by shurlock
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Everyone will be made up. I've never understood this thinking that you can't change your mind, i doubt any Saints fan wants him to do badly, most want him to be good as it's means we are.

 

Sadly nowadays there's this really backwards belief that you can't change your mind on things and everything's black and white. It's f*cking bizarre if you ask me.

 

I have to say I agree with this post in full. That's just to reinforce the point that I cannot see why anyone would not (that's about the whole of the post not just the MP bit).

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Imagine if he turns into a good manager for us...

 

ericb is right in his post, but what have you seen from Pellegrino so far to think that he can/will? I'm not sure it's good enough to simply hope, else why ever change a manager? And if it's simply about timescale, if a manager proves to be rubbish after an entire season, would it not have been better to replace them earlier than that?

 

In my eyes there are two possible excuses for him, because I am yet to see any clear positives (we've had a few decent spells in a few games, but that's about it): 1) He is somehow being forced to play a certain way by the board, 2) there is a general malaise with the players that goes deeper than them simply not being motivated. Maybe they're actively unhappy with the board/club, maybe they're all bored with where they are in their careers etc.

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ericb is right in his post, but what have you seen from Pellegrino so far to think that he can/will? I'm not sure it's good enough to simply hope, else why ever change a manager? And if it's simply about timescale, if a manager proves to be rubbish after an entire season, would it not have been better to replace them earlier than that?

 

In my eyes there are two possible excuses for him, because I am yet to see any clear positives (we've had a few decent spells in a few games, but that's about it): 1) He is somehow being forced to play a certain way by the board, 2) there is a general malaise with the players that goes deeper than them simply not being motivated. Maybe they're actively unhappy with the board/club, maybe they're all bored with where they are in their careers etc.

 

 

 

 

Alex Ferguson was **** in his first season at United .....just saying .....although personally think MP is a no hope

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Everyone will be made up. I've never understood this thinking that you can't change your mind, i doubt any Saints fan wants him to do badly, most want him to be good as it's means we are.

 

Sadly nowadays there's this really backwards belief that you can't change your mind on things and everything's black and white. It's f*cking bizarre if you ask me.

 

Oh I don't know. I think there are few on here who been waiting a long time (like since. say, the summer of 2014) for a situation like this to develop and are thoroughly enjoying it right now...

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Gray had 19 games (win % 31.58) Wigley had 17 games (win % 17.65). MP has had 13 games. Perhaps ask me again if he gets to 19?

 

By the way Pearson managed us for 14 games with a win % of only 21.43 - much worse than Gray - but there many who were mortified when he was sacked so go figure.

 

Weren't both Gray and Wigley promoted from within and not experienced managers? I would imagine that counts against them when making a decision to keep them or not early on. There are plenty of managers who have had poor starts and have gone on to better things, just as there are plenty of managers who have had good starts only to end up getting the bullet - Ranieri being a prime example. Not one of us knows what goes on behind the scenes. If the club feels that he warrants more time I am sure he will get it. Either way, it is better the club makes the decision rather than a bunch of internet warriors who have absolutely zero experience of running a club and for whom firing is the only solution the moment things aren't perfect.

 

Your stats for Gray are misleading, regardless what you're trying to prove with them. He took over a side from Hoddle that had won 7 and drawn 2 of its previous 10 matches. He drew 2 and lost 5 of the next 7. Man Utd had won the league when they came to the Dell, and Arsenal had secured second. Neither had anything to play for (I seem to recall United throwing in a couple of youngsters too, Michael Stewart maybe?) and there was a fantastic atmosphere with those being our final matches at the old ground. Those wins somehow got him the permanent job. In the following season, he won 2 games from his 8 league matches and lost the other 6. Win% is often quoted but draws are never considered. His other 2 wins, which push his % from 23.5% to the 31.5% you're quoting were in the league cup against Brighton and Gillingham.

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Does anyone know who does what in the coaching setup

- Carlos Compagnucci (Assistant Manager)

- Xavier Tamarit (Assistant 1st team Coach)

- Eric Black (Senior 1st Team Coach)

 

I know Xavier has written a book on coaching but who out of the above gives advise to MP2 before and during games.

 

I.e. The opposition have changed to 3-5-2 at h/t should we match up ? (wba) ; the opposition have just brought on 2 forwards for the last 15 mins should we change to stop them becoming a threat ? (burnley) . Don't play with the ball on the edge of our box because the opposition look to "press in that area" and nick the ball.

 

Who gives MP2 technical advise on whether we should play 4-2-3-1 or 3-5-2 ? and explains their role to the players.

 

Who should be telling Redmond that he should be playing 15-20 yds in from the touchline so that (1) he is closer to the lone striker ? and (2) he is not blocking Ryan's overlaps by sitting in his deck-chair on the touchline watching the game go by ?.

 

My question really is ; What roles do Carlos, Xavier and Eric have at the club?

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Alex Ferguson was **** in his first season at United .....just saying .....although personally think MP is a no hope

 

And Di Canio was garbage, even though he had kept Sunderland up. Sunderland rightly pulled the trigger early rather than let the situation fester. Same with Mike Phelan at Hull - perhaps if they had appointed Silva earlier, they might have stayed up. There are as many cases of misguided patience as excessive short-termism.

 

Rather than cherrypick analogies or precedents which settle nothing, perhaps it's easier to treat each case on its merits and trust what you see with your own eyes. Do you see progress under Pellegrino, however incremental?

Edited by shurlock
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And Di Canio was garbage, even though he had kept Sunderland up. Sunderland rightly pulled the trigger early rather than let the situation fester. Same with Mike Phelan at Hull - perhaps if they had got in Silva earlier, they might have stayed up. There are as many cases of misguided patience as excessive short-termism.

 

Rather than cherrypick analogies or precedents which settle nothing, perhaps it's easier to treat each case on its merits and trust what you see with your own eyes. Do you see progress under Pellegrino, however incremental?

 

Absolutely none.

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Has anybody read the book?

 

Does it mention about playing incredibly slow-paced, repetitive football & not committing any runners from midfield?

 

It

 

 

 

 

 

says

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Undecided personally, I am not sure Pellegrino or Puel are/were bad managers and I am not sure Koeman was a particularly good one.

 

I think we just don't have very good players, only good to decent ones and they are underperforming as well which makes it worse.

 

I also think several don't want to be here and their effort has been lacking. I do not think the change in manager will be magic wand of change that many seem to think it will be (who the hell will we be able to get that is decent anyway).

 

What we need IMO is a big clearout and some investment in new players in key positions.

 

Build a team round the likes of Hoedt, Yoshida, Cedric, Lemina, Boufal, Romeu etc. who at least have shown some quality and look like they can be arsed.

 

Ship out the likes of VVD & Bertrand who don't look like they can be bothered, most of our strikers who have shown they aren't good enough and the likes of Redmond and Tadic who have just underperformed for too long.

 

We need an injection of some pace, power and hunger in our forward lines. I'd be looking at players from bigger clubs that want to show their worth and get back on track with their careers, like our former players Shaw and Walcott would be good examples. Rescue the Ox from Liverpool where is just wasting his talents like he was at Arsenal (we can probably get many of these players on loan to buy deals).

 

Get the black box working again to find the new Mane and new Pelle etc.

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At the end of the day money always wins. Saints have made a gallant attempt to get there with talent and when the money men came they tried to reinvest in potential and infrastructure, but the returns on investment in football are very small indeed whoever invests (Les Read) and whatever the infrastructure (Staplewood/ black box) so the only way to overcome that is, yes you've guessed it, plough in loads more money. Success lasts as long as the money does and if you try to buy it with money you haven't got it eventually ends in ruin.

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At the end of the day money always wins. Saints have made a gallant attempt to get there with talent and when the money men came they tried to reinvest in potential and infrastructure, but the returns on investment in football are very small indeed whoever invests (Les Read) and whatever the infrastructure (Staplewood/ black box) so the only way to overcome that is, yes you've guessed it, plough in loads more money. Success lasts as long as the money does and if you try to buy it with money you haven't got it eventually ends in ruin.
No one disagrees with that and no one wants us to spend vast amounts we can't afford. Most just want us to return to what we were doing a few seasons ago- scouting and buying some hidden gems with decent potential, employing an exciting manager who sets us up to play attractive attacking football and investing the money that we do have in the correct areas. I think most people would be happy to finish mid table the majority of the time with the occasional foray into a European place.
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We were three points off the Champions League in May 2016. Maybe we got complacent, maybe a bit arrogant, who knows. A lot of people worked very hard to get that close, and perhaps there needs to be some sort of examination behind the scenes as to where it's going wrong.

 

The big concern for me is where the next gem from the youth is coming from. Sims is injured at the moment, he's probably the most likely. Targett needs regular game time and with Bertrand here he won't get it, Gallagher's progression hasn't happened, it doesn't seem like there is anyone at the moment.

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We were three points off the Champions League in May 2016. Maybe we got complacent, maybe a bit arrogant, who knows. A lot of people worked very hard to get that close, and perhaps there needs to be some sort of examination behind the scenes as to where it's going wrong.

 

The big concern for me is where the next gem from the youth is coming from. Sims is injured at the moment, he's probably the most likely. Targett needs regular game time and with Bertrand here he won't get it, Gallagher's progression hasn't happened, it doesn't seem like there is anyone at the moment.

 

 

Olufela Olomola seems to be having a decent season at Yeovil big step up to the PL mind. Can't understand why Gallagher wasn't given a chance this season on the back of a good loan spell last season.

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Undecided personally, I am not sure Pellegrino or Puel are/were bad managers and I am not sure Koeman was a particularly good one.

 

I think we just don't have very good players, only good to decent ones and they are underperforming as well which makes it worse.

 

I also think several don't want to be here and their effort has been lacking. I do not think the change in manager will be magic wand of change that many seem to think it will be (who the hell will we be able to get that is decent anyway).

 

What we need IMO is a big clearout and some investment in new players in key positions.

 

Build a team round the likes of Hoedt, Yoshida, Cedric, Lemina, Boufal, Romeu etc. who at least have shown some quality and look like they can be arsed.

 

Ship out the likes of VVD & Bertrand who don't look like they can be bothered, most of our strikers who have shown they aren't good enough and the likes of Redmond and Tadic who have just underperformed for too long.

 

We need an injection of some pace, power and hunger in our forward lines. I'd be looking at players from bigger clubs that want to show their worth and get back on track with their careers, like our former players Shaw and Walcott would be good examples. Rescue the Ox from Liverpool where is just wasting his talents like he was at Arsenal (we can probably get many of these players on loan to buy deals).

 

Get the black box working again to find the new Mane and new Pelle etc.

 

Nail on head. Top post.

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No one disagrees with that and no one wants us to spend vast amounts we can't afford. Most just want us to return to what we were doing a few seasons ago- scouting and buying some hidden gems with decent potential, employing an exciting manager who sets us up to play attractive attacking football and investing the money that we do have in the correct areas. I think most people would be happy to finish mid table the majority of the time with the occasional foray into a European place.

 

Perhaps I should more accurately have said that returns on investment in football are unpredictable and the less money you have the more unpredictable they are. So we have to accept if we wish to remain solvent there will be bad times as well as good. The only other weapon we have is time ( for players and managers) and we should use it wisely.

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At the end of the day money always wins. Saints have made a gallant attempt to get there with talent and when the money men came they tried to reinvest in potential and infrastructure, but the returns on investment in football are very small indeed whoever invests (Les Read) and whatever the infrastructure (Staplewood/ black box) so the only way to overcome that is, yes you've guessed it, plough in loads more money. Success lasts as long as the money does and if you try to buy it with money you haven't got it eventually ends in ruin.

 

Aren't we supposed to have the 7th or 8th most expensive squad in the league? In which case, finishing between 6th-10th with a reasonable showing in the cups is basically breaking even.

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Perhaps I should more accurately have said that returns on investment in football are unpredictable and the less money you have the more unpredictable they are. So we have to accept if we wish to remain solvent there will be bad times as well as good. The only other weapon we have is time ( for players and managers) and we should use it wisely.

 

How is time a "weapon" when all the other teams have that too?

 

I disagree with your opening sentiment that money is the sole factor in all this. Of course those with money find it easier to get where they want to be, but the business model we have, or had, or are supposed to have, is a good one. The other realistic way to have better results than your budget would allow? Find a manager who gets more out of the players than the sum of their parts, not less.

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How is time a "weapon" when all the other teams have that too?

 

I disagree with your opening sentiment that money is the sole factor in all this. Of course those with money find it easier to get where they want to be, but the business model we have, or had, or are supposed to have, is a good one. The other realistic way to have better results than your budget would allow? Find a manager who gets more out of the players than the sum of their parts, not less.

 

In the same way that all countries have weapons. It is the one thing that we have that is equal to all other teams so we should use it wisely.

Our business model helps us but we are in a fickle business. Like all investments if you sell ( sack) too soon you might miss out on profits (higher league position) later.

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Undecided personally, I am not sure Pellegrino or Puel are/were bad managers and I am not sure Koeman was a particularly good one.

 

I think we just don't have very good players, only good to decent ones and they are underperforming as well which makes it worse.

 

I also think several don't want to be here and their effort has been lacking. I do not think the change in manager will be magic wand of change that many seem to think it will be (who the hell will we be able to get that is decent anyway).

 

What we need IMO is a big clearout and some investment in new players in key positions.

 

Build a team round the likes of Hoedt, Yoshida, Cedric, Lemina, Boufal, Romeu etc. who at least have shown some quality and look like they can be arsed.

 

Ship out the likes of VVD & Bertrand who don't look like they can be bothered, most of our strikers who have shown they aren't good enough and the likes of Redmond and Tadic who have just underperformed for too long.

 

We need an injection of some pace, power and hunger in our forward lines. I'd be looking at players from bigger clubs that want to show their worth and get back on track with their careers, like our former players Shaw and Walcott would be good examples. Rescue the Ox from Liverpool where is just wasting his talents like he was at Arsenal (we can probably get many of these players on loan to buy deals).

 

Get the black box working again to find the new Mane and new Pelle etc.

 

Honestly th’Ox’pleasehe has been stand out trash for a couple of seasons now. A bad example but you overall point is reasonably valid...

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Does anyone know who does what in the coaching setup

- Carlos Compagnucci (Assistant Manager)

- Xavier Tamarit (Assistant 1st team Coach)

- Eric Black (Senior 1st Team Coach)

 

I know Xavier has written a book on coaching but who out of the above gives advise to MP2 before and during games.

 

I.e. The opposition have changed to 3-5-2 at h/t should we match up ? (wba) ; the opposition have just brought on 2 forwards for the last 15 mins should we change to stop them becoming a threat ? (burnley) . Don't play with the ball on the edge of our box because the opposition look to "press in that area" and nick the ball.

 

Who gives MP2 technical advise on whether we should play 4-2-3-1 or 3-5-2 ? and explains their role to the players.

 

Who should be telling Redmond that he should be playing 15-20 yds in from the touchline so that (1) he is closer to the lone striker ? and (2) he is not blocking Ryan's overlaps by sitting in his deck-chair on the touchline watching the game go by ?.

 

My question really is ; What roles do Carlos, Xavier and Eric have at the club?

This is precisely the question on many people’s lips..

The coaching staff appear to be hopelessly inept and yet nothing is done about it.

This then leads you to the what is the root of this debacle which has to be Reed who believes his own grossly exaggerated import stance even with overwhelming evidence of the issues which he is supposed to in overall charge of.

Not forgetting the diabolical mess concerning the goalkeeping coaching and that whole situation as well.

It’s a bloody mess....

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