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Who’s to blame?


Pilchards

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We had Lemina, Boufal and Gabby on the bench Saturday. What I want to know is who is to blame that our three record signings are not getting game time?

 

Is it the manager?

The board?

The players themselves?

 

IMHO Reed is to blame as he approves these players to come here and he is employing a manager that’s stopping their progress.

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We had Lemina, Boufal and Gabby on the bench Saturday. What I want to know is who is to blame that our three record signings are not getting game time?

 

Is it the manager?

The board?

The players themselves?

 

IMHO Reed is to blame as he approves these players to come here and he is employing a manager that’s stopping their progress.

 

So we want Les to pick to he team then ... :rolleyes:

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Whilst Reed and Freddie Kreuger do my head in with their nonsense in the media and KL seems to have sold us down the river (if it leads to more investment and protects Markus's legacy my backside is a fire engine), the issue Pilchards raises has to be Pellegrino. Why would Reed want his record signings benched? Lemina has got a nagging ankle injury as well IIRC.

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Les Ralph and katherina. Saying she was interested and wasn’t.

 

Not sure how that would directly impact the playing performance of our record signings Lemina, Gabbiadini and Boufal. But, on the other hand, you haven't got a clue.

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We had Lemina, Boufal and Gabby on the bench Saturday. What I want to know is who is to blame that our three record signings are not getting game time?

 

Is it the manager?

The board?

The players themselves?

 

IMHO Reed is to blame as he approves these players to come here and he is employing a manager that’s stopping their progress.

 

Remember Gaston Ramirez and Dani Osvaldo? Both record signings as I remember

 

Classie was just under Osvaldo's fee. Where is he?

 

I think Billy Sharp was a record signing and Kerry Dixon.

 

Who's to blame? For every difficult question there are 3 simple answers and they are usually all wrong!

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Does seem bizarre. But without inside knowledge it's hard to know the real reason why they are not being picked. For any of these players it could be:-

 

- Manager doesn't rate them

- Manager thinks their attitude is wrong or they are not putting the work in in training

- Tactical decision by manager

- Fitness concerns / rotation

 

Ultimately, unless the players are really acting up, you have to blame the manager as he is clearly not getting the best out of the most talented members of the squad.

 

And you have to blame Les Reed/Krueger as they are doing F all about it!

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All of them have their own part to play in our demise.

 

Katharina has been asset stripping the club for the last few years. Clearly just looking to get as much out of it whilst she could.

Reed & Ralph have made some terrible decisions, but if the owner is instructing them to sell because she wants money then what option do they have? After all, they're employees so they have to do what they're told.

The manager is to blame for the poor style of play and some of the head scratching tactics and team selections. He should have resigned or been given the boot months ago. That said, Les may not be in a position to fire him because that would involve shelling out a load more money and that's the last thing KL would want if she's intent on milking it for everything that she can.

 

The day the Chinese investment was announced was a very sad day in our history IMO. They've brought nothing to the plate and I worry about any club who has such big investment from China as I see it all as short term investment. I think a number of Chinese owned clubs could find themselves in a big mess in the next 5-10 years.

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Not sure how that would directly impact the playing performance of our record signings Lemina, Gabbiadini and Boufal. But, on the other hand, you haven't got a clue.

 

Les for hiring a cheap, useless manager. Being completely arrogant and believing his own hype.

 

Kat for giving Les that amount of responsibility and not giving the funds to back him.

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Does seem bizarre. But without inside knowledge it's hard to know the real reason why they are not being picked. For any of these players it could be:-

 

- Manager doesn't rate them

- Manager thinks their attitude is wrong or they are not putting the work in in training

- Tactical decision by manager

- Fitness concerns / rotation

 

Ultimately, unless the players are really acting up, you have to blame the manager as he is clearly not getting the best out of the most talented members of the squad.

 

And you have to blame Les Reed/Krueger as they are doing F all about it!

 

Nice summary and spot on too.

 

The saddest thing is we might buy another record signing for the bench.

Edited by Pilchards
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Not sure how that would directly impact the playing performance of our record signings Lemina, Gabbiadini and Boufal. But, on the other hand, you haven't got a clue.

 

Well you are thick as. Selling Good players and losing good managers makes the football worse if they aren’t replaced.

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Does seem bizarre. But without inside knowledge it's hard to know the real reason why they are not being picked. For any of these players it could be:-

 

- Manager doesn't rate them

- Manager thinks their attitude is wrong or they are not putting the work in in training

- Tactical decision by manager

- Fitness concerns / rotation

 

Ultimately, unless the players are really acting up, you have to blame the manager as he is clearly not getting the best out of the most talented members of the squad.

 

And you have to blame Les Reed/Krueger as they are doing F all about it!

 

There's an interesting piece on Sky today about Lemina and how he could be the solution to our problems. It talks about him sitting on the bench whilst out of form players, such as Steven Davis, are picked ahead of him. It does make you wonder WTF is going on.

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It's not the managers fault he isn't good enough. He's trying his best and clearly should have been relived of his duty some time ago, it is our boards fault that he hasn't. They are letting their personal ego get in the way of footballing decisions.

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I doubt any of us know the full story. Here is a list of things I don't think helped though (some of it is speculated on my part):

 

Uncertainty around the takeover

An awful record of briefing the press about things we then fail to deliver

Appointment of a Manager that simply has not worked out

Focus on many things outside the club leaving things inside the club to lose focus and attention

Below average recruitment

 

All have contributed towards the state of our club and our on pitch performances. You can probably place blame across many individuals.

 

These things happen, some are more avoidable than others, but what concerns me most is the general lack of action to resolve any of it.

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I doubt any of us know the full story. Here is a list of things I don't think helped though (some of it is speculated on my part):

 

Uncertainty around the takeover

An awful record of briefing the press about things we then fail to deliver

Appointment of a Manager that simply has not worked out

Focus on many things outside the club leaving things inside the club to lose focus and attention

Below average recruitment

 

All have contributed towards the state of our club and our on pitch performances. You can probably place blame across many individuals.

 

These things happen, some are more avoidable than others, but what concerns me most is the general lack of action to resolve any of it.

 

Good list.

 

May I add:

 

- The decision makers at the start of last season thinking a strikeforce of Austin / J-Rod / Long was good enough to go into a season with....

- & then 12 months later [after a season of struggling to score & swapping Jay for Gabbi] we decided to do nothing about it again!

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Good list.

 

May I add:

 

- The decision makers at the start of last season thinking a strikeforce of Austin / J-Rod / Long was good enough to go into a season with....

- & then 12 months later [after a season of struggling to score & swapping Jay for Gabbi] we decided to do nothing about it again!

 

I'd also add turning down Manuel Pellegrini in the summer of 2006 at a time that he reportedly wanted to join us. We had an opportunity to leverage our position having finished sixth the season before but instead we sold all our goals and replaced our most successful manager with someone who the players hadn't heard of and didn't respect. Irrespective of his performances with Leicester since leaving us (obviously he looks good but we are at the stage of genuinely debating whether we'd rather have Paul Lambert in charge than Pellegrino) he was the wrong appointment at the wrong time for us.

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We had Lemina, Boufal and Gabby on the bench Saturday. What I want to know is who is to blame that our three record signings are not getting game time?

 

Is it the manager?

The board?

The players themselves?

 

IMHO Reed is to blame as he approves these players to come here and he is employing a manager that’s stopping their progress.

 

 

Record signing is a bit of a red herring isn't it? Player transfer inflation means a lot of clubs are breaking their signing fee record on a regular basis not necessarily bringing in players who are much higher quality than the current squad either but are just costing more.

 

Trying to pin the blame on one particular individual is pretty pointless as Welk. We are where we are for several reasons that are all combining into one big cluster ****.

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I'd also add turning down Manuel Pellegrini in the summer of 2006 at a time that he reportedly wanted to join us. We had an opportunity to leverage our position having finished sixth the season before but instead we sold all our goals and replaced our most successful manager with someone who the players hadn't heard of and didn't respect. Irrespective of his performances with Leicester since leaving us (obviously he looks good but we are at the stage of genuinely debating whether we'd rather have Paul Lambert in charge than Pellegrino) he was the wrong appointment at the wrong time for us.

 

Pellegrini was apparently interested at the time, but we were put off by:

 

a) No track record of bringing through youth.

b) No history of high-pressing.

 

So, after Puel got sacked, I reckon we went back in for him, but somebody mis-read the shortlist and we ended up with Pellegrino :)

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Pellegrini was apparently interested at the time, but we were put off by:

 

a) No track record of bringing through youth.

b) No history of high-pressing.

 

So, after Puel got sacked, I reckon we went back in for him, but somebody mis-read the shortlist and we ended up with Pellegrino :)

 

Pub Quiz question for the future:

"Who were the only club ever to be relegated from the PL due to a typo?" :D

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If we agree that these three players are good enough to be starting (I think they are), then we have to acknowledge that it was the board/blackbox/scouts who identified them.

 

It's the manager's decision not to play them. Either because he can't see their ability, can't figure out where to play them or how to play to their strengths, or because he can't get the best out of them.

 

But, ultimately it IS the fault of the board that they appointed the wrong man and after 6 excruciating months are still too stubborn to make a change.

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The fans for forcing out Puel. Blood on their hands.

 

I was waiting for someone to blame the fans....:mcinnes:

 

For the last few Summers I have parted with my hard earned cash for my season ticket without knowing who the manager is, or what sort of team we will have in August, so if anyone has got the right to have a moan it's us. I love how suddenly Puel has turned into a great manager for us, short memories my friends.

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The fans for forcing out Puel. Blood on their hands.

 

B*ll*cks.

 

The fans didnt choose to run the squad down on the cheap, or choose Puel's successor.

 

Reed chose the manager, and squad to provide his style of play. I dont blame the frontal (embarassing) mouth piece Kreuger or Katharina, although perhaps she could have vetted our new owner better.

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Les Reed for the following reasons:

 

1. Changing our successful strategy of being a stepping stone club for young ambitious players who want to perform well in the Premier League as a shop window for their dream move to a Champions League club (ever since Fonte was denied his move to Man United, the players have lost their motivation/work ethic imho).

 

2. Being over-ambitious in believing he could take on player-power and stop them wanting to leave by giving them pay rises and long contracts (rather than treating the players as the entitled prima-donnas with fragile egos that they are).

 

3. Giving Koeman an ultimatum that he had to either sign a contract extension or leave immediately and earn Saints a ‘transfer fee’. It seems obvious he wasn’t that keen on Everton and wanted to see out the one remaining year of his three year contract then move on to “the next level” of a Champions League club (the same ambition as our best players).

 

4. Pretending Van Dijk was not for sale at any price. He should have just said he can leave, but only on two conditions - that we get a high enough price (which no one offered last summer btw) and that we sell him early enough to have time left to buy new players. No one believed he would be forced to honour his 6 year contract, so why pretend.

 

5. Recruiting two ill-suited managers since Koeman, rather than picking positive managers who suited our existing players and playing style.

 

6. Although our player recruitment has generally been good (except Redmond and Forster!), I think we focus too much on finding good players (irrespective of position) who fit our model etc, but not enough on finding players in the positions we actually need (e.g. Lemina is a good player with potential to improve and increase in value, but did we really need another defensive midfielder last summer?).

 

7. Preventing managers having their own first team coaches in place (Dave Watson and Alek Gross seem unsackable despite Forster’s decline and our players generally seeming less fit than before).

 

8. Possibly interfering in first team affairs and putting off potential managers (although we don’t seem to have any solid evidence for that).

 

9. Appearing not to care that the under-23 team has been under-performing and was relegated last summer.

 

10. Launching barely concealed media character assassinations on players who leave us. Although this is in line with the mood of fans at the time, I worry that it may anger our existing players who want to leave one day, damaging team morale.

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Two things.

 

Recruitment:

Our recruitment has partly worked out since Paul Mitchell left and partly failed.

 

Even in his era we had flop signings.

 

Since 2012/2013 our academy signings, other than Ward Prowse, have hardly had a look in. Reed left for Norwich, Sims had a blinder two or three times and hasn't played since. McQueen and Targett have showed what they can do but the manager doesn't place enough faith in them to give them a good chance.

 

Bottom line - we look too internationally and not enough at our home grown talent, if it exists at all.

 

International players are always going to be more risky in terms of moving elsewhere, moving back to their home country, etc. It just adds a dynamic that local lads or English talent doesn't have to worry about. Worst case a player moves to another lower league side - think of Jack Cork. Those that get good move to big clubs, such as Lallana, but it's not as common.

 

I want a team filled with gems found in other leagues, sure. But I also want loyal club guys who come through the academy and are more likely to stay. Lallana soured the relationship with the fans and it's not been a good case study, but almost every other team in a similar place to us in terms of league position has 6-7 players in their squad who are unlikely to go anywhere and can be relied upon.

 

Match day:

 

Team selection on the day falls on Pellegrino. Lemina has been great when I've watched him, don't know why he doesn't play. PEH has been a welcome change but I think that's more about his personal progression and development than any 'faith' placed in him. Austin remaining in the team, Forster remaining in the team...these are manager choices that have cost us valuable points, at least in hindsight.

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There's an interesting piece on Sky today about Lemina and how he could be the solution to our problems. It talks about him sitting on the bench whilst out of form players, such as Steven Davis, are picked ahead of him. It does make you wonder WTF is going on.

 

Yep and an article I pretty much agree with although you have to wonder if its the injury which is still hampering him and is that the reason why Pellegrino isn't picking him.

 

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11700/11207754/mario-lemina-in-focus-time-for-southampton-to-trust-in-his-talent

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The failure to adequately replace Mane and Pelle changed us from a team challenging to be the best of the rest, to a team with a middling squad capable of a mid table finish.

 

Pellegrino transformed the squad from a comfortable mid table team, to relegation candidates. We simply should not be in this position. The club made a huge mistake firing Puel without a better replacement signed up and ready to go. Pellegrino simply is not a better replacement. I suppose you could blame Les for hiring Pellegrino, or Pellegrino for not being a good manager, or both if you really enjoy blaming people.

 

I just want the board to wake up and do something about it.

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The end of last season was awful with Puel scoring less goals than Mopey. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Puel was wrongly sacked and the fans who think he is no good know SFA. All those wanting rid of him certainly were happy watching us at Wembley and being part of one of the best cup finals in years, let alone the start of making us a decent team again.

Anyway it is history and pointless at picking at the scab. I feel cheated that I cant see how we would have progressed under him

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Yep and an article I pretty much agree with although you have to wonder if its the injury which is still hampering him and is that the reason why Pellegrino isn't picking him.

 

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11700/11207754/mario-lemina-in-focus-time-for-southampton-to-trust-in-his-talent

 

Both the club through its mouthpiece in the Daily Telegraph, and Lemina himself have indicated he is underperforming due to an injury.

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Ultimately, unless the players are really acting up, you have to blame the manager as he is clearly not getting the best out of the most talented members of the squad.

 

Yes.

Our weak manager cant control or inspire his squad. He is ****ing abysmal.

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Les Reed for the following reasons:

 

1. Changing our successful strategy of being a stepping stone club for young ambitious players who want to perform well in the Premier League as a shop window for their dream move to a Champions League club (ever since Fonte was denied his move to Man United, the players have lost their motivation/work ethic imho).

 

2. Being over-ambitious in believing he could take on player-power and stop them wanting to leave by giving them pay rises and long contracts (rather than treating the players as the entitled prima-donnas with fragile egos that they are).

 

3. Giving Koeman an ultimatum that he had to either sign a contract extension or leave immediately and earn Saints a ‘transfer fee’. It seems obvious he wasn’t that keen on Everton and wanted to see out the one remaining year of his three year contract then move on to “the next level” of a Champions League club (the same ambition as our best players).

 

4. Pretending Van Dijk was not for sale at any price. He should have just said he can leave, but only on two conditions - that we get a high enough price (which no one offered last summer btw) and that we sell him early enough to have time left to buy new players. No one believed he would be forced to honour his 6 year contract, so why pretend.

 

5. Recruiting two ill-suited managers since Koeman, rather than picking positive managers who suited our existing players and playing style.

 

6. Although our player recruitment has generally been good (except Redmond and Forster!), I think we focus too much on finding good players (irrespective of position) who fit our model etc, but not enough on finding players in the positions we actually need (e.g. Lemina is a good player with potential to improve and increase in value, but did we really need another defensive midfielder last summer?).

 

7. Preventing managers having their own first team coaches in place (Dave Watson and Alek Gross seem unsackable despite Forster’s decline and our players generally seeming less fit than before).

 

8. Possibly interfering in first team affairs and putting off potential managers (although we don’t seem to have any solid evidence for that).

 

9. Appearing not to care that the under-23 team has been under-performing and was relegated last summer.

 

10. Launching barely concealed media character assassinations on players who leave us. Although this is in line with the mood of fans at the time, I worry that it may anger our existing players who want to leave one day, damaging team morale.

 

I'm not a Les Reed fan by any stretch, but I'm not sure about some of these criticisms.

 

1. Are you saying we should be selling our players more often? The model works but at some point you need to hold a group (or the majority of it) together if you're ever going to improve. Maybe that's what we tried to do. Plus, the signings of Hojbjerg and Boufal last year, and Lemina and Hoedt this season demonstrate that players still see (or saw) us as that stepping stone club.

 

2. I think the long term contracts was about maximising their sale value to be honest. It's generally a good idea. The contract to Forster was bewildering though.

 

3. Part of the problem of Koeman not signing a new deal would be his motivation, and more importantly the motivation of the players when they knew Koeman was going to leave at the end of the season. Whatever happened since, it's understandable that they didn't want 2 good years under RK to tail off.

 

4. Agree but not sure quite how much impact that has had.

 

5. Agree, but there did appear to be some sense in picking Puel. He at least did do some positive things, more in line with the business model the fans understood (even if they didn't agree), i.e. more possession, giving young players an opportunity.

 

6. Agree to an extent. Even Redmond would still be worth a decent sum (double his cost?) if he maintained last season's form (which was only occasionally decent). I thought Lemina was exactly the player we needed at the time, and he is clearly quality. Just because Hojbjerg is now playing well doesn't change that. I can't think of many signings that didn't meet a need, it's just that certain things have been overlooked - in my mind the lack of pace is one glaring feature of our squad.

 

7. I don't really have enough evidence to comment on this, though agree on Forster and fitness. Is it not the manager's decision to train harder/longer though?

 

8 - 10. Agree, and would add that the amount of bullsh1t they've put out to the press in previous years suggests that they have an inflated opinion of themselves. Reed thinks he is a football guru but I think it's more that he has done some good things and been fortunate with others. To me Les Reed is the kid at school who gets Bs and Cs, but in one piece of work gets an A* and praise from the teacher. Because of that he lords it over everyone else and thinks he doesn't need to work for the rest of term. Then he fails the year-end exam and doesn't understand it.

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Puel was wrongly sacked and the fans who think he is no good know SFA. All those wanting rid of him certainly were happy watching us at Wembley and being part of one of the best cup finals in years, let alone the start of making us a decent team again.

Anyway it is history and pointless at picking at the scab. I feel cheated that I cant see how we would have progressed under him

 

You don't even sound convinced yourself! :lol: Haha, no seriously though I love the humour. It's exactly what we need right now in these dire times.

 

The only thing that all Saints fans, and I mean all, can agree on is just how woeful Puel was and that how the damage he has inflicted on this club will never be fixed - so whilst it's bloody frustrating that we hired the bloke in the first place, it's a magical gift he's given us by bringing together the fan base in a hatred of a manager that we haven't seen since the Branfoot days. Together as one!

 

Was he a disaster? Yes. Was he the worst manager we have seen? Sure. Did he destroy a wonderful squad? No doubt. But he has brought all fans together like never before and to see jokes like this from OldNick really does wonders to cheer us all up on those gloomy days.

Edited by niceandfriendly
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Puel was wrongly sacked and the fans who think he is no good know SFA. All those wanting rid of him certainly were happy watching us at Wembley and being part of one of the best cup finals in years, let alone the start of making us a decent team again.

Anyway it is history and pointless at picking at the scab. I feel cheated that I cant see how we would have progressed under him

 

In 1992 there were nearly 40,000 of us at Wembley for a Cup Final. Assuming you were there, you must have been the only one pleased to have Branfoot as our manager, as was borne out by the abuse dished out when his name was read out.

 

You then say "at the start of making us a decent team again." We were until he got to work on us from the time he got here.

 

When it comes to knowing FA, you are not even close to sweet. Please stop re-writing history.

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Terrible recruitment

 

Terrible tactics

 

Players letting down the club (it’s not the manager’s fault that they couldn’t string together two passes in the second half at Watford)

 

I don’t think you understand the tactics and coaching which Pellegrino employs are the reason that there is no outlet for a pass as described in one of my earlier posts.

Pellegrino is 100% responsible for delivering our coaching and tactics the last time I looked....

Now the chickens really are coming home to roost with Walcott choosing BFS and Everton over us.....

How long will senior management sit on their hands and allow the clueless one to continue???

Clueless about tactics, clueless about coaching and It appears clueless about fitness too.....

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Whoever turned down Pellegrini and appointed Puel - we had the opportunity of appointing someone with this record:

 

Managerial statistics

 

As of match played 4 November 2017.

 

Managerial record by team and tenure Team From To Record Ref

P W D L Win %

Villarreal 1 July 2004 1 June 2009 259 123 72 64 47.5 [13][47][48]

Real Madrid 1 June 2009 26 May 2010 48 36 5 7 75.0 [13][16][49]

Málaga 5 November 2010 14 June 2013 129 53 30 46 41.1 [47][50]

Manchester City 14 June 2013 30 June 2016 167 100 28 39 59.9 [47]

Hebei China Fortune 27 August 2016 Present 37 16 9 12 43.2 [51]

Total 640 328 144 168 51.3 —

Universidad Católica

 

Copa Chile: 1995

Copa Interamericana: 1993

 

LDU Quito

 

Serie A: 1999

 

San Lorenzo

 

Primera División: 2000–01

Copa Mercosur: 2001

 

River Plate

 

Primera División: 2002–03

 

Villarreal

 

UEFA Intertoto Cup: 2004

 

Manchester City

 

Premier League: 2013–14

Football League Cup: 2013–14, 2015–16

 

Individual

 

Miguel Muñoz Trophy: 2007–08

Premier League Manager of the Month (4): December 2013, January 2014, December 2014, August 2015

Málaga Provincial Council: Gold Shield

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