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Thread: Stephens v Stones

  1. #1

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    Default Stephens v Stones

    Sunday was the ideal opportunity to provide a direct comparison between John Stones and Jack Stephens.

    Considering City paid £47.5m for Stones, is he THAT much better than Stephens if, indeed, he is better?

    Discuss.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaMarlin View Post
    Sunday was the ideal opportunity to provide a direct comparison between John Stones and Jack Stephens.

    Considering City paid £47.5m for Stones, is he THAT much better than Stephens if, indeed, he is better?

    Discuss.

  3. Default

    Stephens is a very poor CB, doesn't jump or attack the ball. Only good attribute is he is "good" on the ball.

    Stone is average. Man City shouldve got VVD.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaMarlin View Post
    Sunday was the ideal opportunity to provide a direct comparison between John Stones and Jack Stephens.

    Considering City paid £47.5m for Stones, is he THAT much better than Stephens if, indeed, he is better?

    Discuss.
    Yes- because Stephens is largely terrible, not good enough for the premier league at the moment.
    - Can't tackle
    - Can't head
    - Doesn't track his man very often
    - Poor distribution

    Stones is decent, younger than Stephens, however I agree they should have bought VVD as Kompany's long term replacement.

  5. #5

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    Stones is at least twice as good. But the price difference is fairly insane. Stones is also at most half as good as VVD.

  6. #6

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    More important, who is better, Stephens or Bednarek?

    Feel like one CB with potential gaining experience and improving is fine, not 2. Think Bedarek looks to have more about him.

    Hoedt, Yoshi, Bednarek and a decent new signing seems enough at CB. Guess we need a fifth if we play back 3s regularly. That's probably Stephens level, 5th choice.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by adriansfc View Post
    More important, who is better, Stephens or Bednarek?

    Feel like one CB with potential gaining experience and improving is fine, not 2. Think Bedarek looks to have more about him.

    Hoedt, Yoshi, Bednarek and a decent new signing seems enough at CB. Guess we need a fifth if we play back 3s regularly. That's probably Stephens level, 5th choice.
    Think one of them atleast needs to move on, I'd be tempted to move Stephens and possibly Yoshida on, and get 2 in alongside Bednarek & Hoedt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adriansfc View Post
    More important, who is better, Stephens or Bednarek?

    Feel like one CB with potential gaining experience and improving is fine, not 2. Think Bedarek looks to have more about him.

    Hoedt, Yoshi, Bednarek and a decent new signing seems enough at CB. Guess we need a fifth if we play back 3s regularly. That's probably Stephens level, 5th choice.
    Agree. Bednarek wants to defend; Stephens wants to be a midfielder.

    I would keep them all, use Stephens as back up RB / 5th choice (particularly if we are going to play with 3 at the back) and try to add one who is a cut above, a la Toby / VVD (easier said than done).

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    Stones is certainly not significantly better than Stephens. There are some people whose opinion of Stephens on here is just ridiculous. The oft trotted-out bit about him not being able to head the ball is the biggest load of nonsense possible. Clearly peole don't actually watch his play (I gave up counting the number of headed interceptions and clearances is one recent game (Boscombe?) when I got to double figures around half-time. Stephens is a very good CB, arguably the best we have (certainly better than Wesley ****ing Hoedt who is a nightmare, but will be very good one day). The heading thing is so old school, there are very few teams nowadays in the PL where you need a tall dominating CB, only the teams at the bottom end of the table rely on tall dominating strikers, much better to be able to deal with the likes of Aguero, etc., fast agile strikers. Even so Stephens is perfectly good against the taller ones. Sunday highlighted the future, Stephens will be our skipper in the fairly near future I would imagine, thats the way our managers seem to be heading. He will also be an England international after this world cup. Them's my predictions anyway, based on actually watching him play and appreciating a British Saints developed player rather than the usual Carlos Kickaball who has to be better because we paid a lot of money for him. Anyway, that said we need to bring in 2 more CBs this summer if we are going to play 3 at the back next season as I expect (assuming Gardos goes). We can't go through a season with 4 CBs.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by VectisSaint View Post
    Stones is certainly not significantly better than Stephens. There are some people whose opinion of Stephens on here is just ridiculous. The oft trotted-out bit about him not being able to head the ball is the biggest load of nonsense possible. Clearly peole don't actually watch his play (I gave up counting the number of headed interceptions and clearances is one recent game (Boscombe?) when I got to double figures around half-time. Stephens is a very good CB, arguably the best we have (certainly better than Wesley ****ing Hoedt who is a nightmare, but will be very good one day). The heading thing is so old school, there are very few teams nowadays in the PL where you need a tall dominating CB, only the teams at the bottom end of the table rely on tall dominating strikers, much better to be able to deal with the likes of Aguero, etc., fast agile strikers. Even so Stephens is perfectly good against the taller ones. Sunday highlighted the future, Stephens will be our skipper in the fairly near future I would imagine, thats the way our managers seem to be heading. He will also be an England international after this world cup. Them's my predictions anyway, based on actually watching him play and appreciating a British Saints developed player rather than the usual Carlos Kickaball who has to be better because we paid a lot of money for him. Anyway, that said we need to bring in 2 more CBs this summer if we are going to play 3 at the back next season as I expect (assuming Gardos goes). We can't go through a season with 4 CBs.
    Good post and i agree with all of it bar the world cup bit..

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by VectisSaint View Post
    Stones is certainly not significantly better than Stephens. There are some people whose opinion of Stephens on here is just ridiculous. The oft trotted-out bit about him not being able to head the ball is the biggest load of nonsense possible. Clearly peole don't actually watch his play (I gave up counting the number of headed interceptions and clearances is one recent game (Boscombe?) when I got to double figures around half-time. Stephens is a very good CB, arguably the best we have (certainly better than Wesley ****ing Hoedt who is a nightmare, but will be very good one day). The heading thing is so old school, there are very few teams nowadays in the PL where you need a tall dominating CB, only the teams at the bottom end of the table rely on tall dominating strikers, much better to be able to deal with the likes of Aguero, etc., fast agile strikers. Even so Stephens is perfectly good against the taller ones. Sunday highlighted the future, Stephens will be our skipper in the fairly near future I would imagine, thats the way our managers seem to be heading. He will also be an England international after this world cup. Them's my predictions anyway, based on actually watching him play and appreciating a British Saints developed player rather than the usual Carlos Kickaball who has to be better because we paid a lot of money for him. Anyway, that said we need to bring in 2 more CBs this summer if we are going to play 3 at the back next season as I expect (assuming Gardos goes). We can't go through a season with 4 CBs.
    I think the point about Stephens is that when he's up against anyone half good in the air, he loses almost every time. Sure, against a Bournemouth side whose strikers are selected more for pace that presence he'll mop up all day, but he's easily bullied by more physical players in a way that VVD in particular seldom was.

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    Stephens looks nothing like an England player and without significant improvement, never will be. Whilst I wouldn't blame the string of games conceding 3 on Stephens, he certainly played a part in all of that.

    There's a reason Stone is in the greatest squad in Premier League history, whilst Stephens is the 4th best defender at a club which narrowly avoided relegation and finished below Huddersfield.

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    IMO I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Stephens move to right back. He started off there for Argyle, seeing as Cedric probably will be on his way I could envisage him taking that spot at least in the short term, or being second choice RB.

  14. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Super_Uwe View Post
    IMO I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Stephens move to right back. He started off there for Argyle, seeing as Cedric probably will be on his way I could envisage him taking that spot at least in the short term, or being second choice RB.
    Would be very surprised if he ended up as a RB- the current trend is for full backs to be practically wingers. Think as a CB in a three he's more than fine, providing he has a more aerially dominant CB alongside him.

  15. Default

    Stephens is encouraging, showed good progress this year and has the makings of a decent premiership centre back.

  16. Default

    What a bunch of t***s on here. Stephens obviously the latest in a long list of whipping boys. Seriously, I do wonder if some of you understand football at all.

    Funny how the pundits who played the game are very complimentary about Stephens on the whole. He has done well and simply needs a stronger leader alongside him. To say Stones is twice the player is just outright nonsense.

    See out forum experts blamed him for the City goal on Sunday whereas it was actually Hoedt playing Jesus onside that was the culprit. Still, why let any truth get in the way of reality eh?

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    Stephens is a decent centre half and I would be really disappointed if he were to be overlooked in favour of yet another anonymous signing. He stepped up to the mark last season when Vardy cropped VVD and has put in many decent performances this season. Of course he could be better in some aspects but without a commanding presence alongside such as VVD, Fonte, Toby, its not that easy for a young player to gain experience quickly. He's comfortable on the ball, a good tackler and puts his body on the line for the cause. Why do some people constantly criticise our own home (almost) grown players? Earlier in the year Targett was getting stick - he's shoved that right back up you with his performances for Fulham. Ward-Prowse is another - he's improved immensely this season and playing for Saints actually means something to these players, unlike some who have worn the shirt this season!

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    Why do some people constantly overrate home grown players?

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    Why do some people constantly overrate home grown players?
    Because the media constantly over hypes them when they are 16 and play 1 game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by washsaint View Post
    What a bunch of t***s on here. Stephens obviously the latest in a long list of whipping boys. Seriously, I do wonder if some of you understand football at all.

    Funny how the pundits who played the game are very complimentary about Stephens on the whole. He has done well and simply needs a stronger leader alongside him. To say Stones is twice the player is just outright nonsense.

    See out forum experts blamed him for the City goal on Sunday whereas it was actually Hoedt playing Jesus onside that was the culprit. Still, why let any truth get in the way of reality eh?
    Football is all about opinions clearly (that old cliche) as I happen to really like the bloke, love his attitude and effort and love for the club, etc but don't think he is a Premier League level footballer (yet!).

    We finished down the bottom end of the league because we had bang average players like Stephens playing much of the season. A really good squad player, but we need to find another Fonte, VVD or Lovren or we will be in the sh*te again next season.

    Dont think Pep will be after our Jack anytime soon, so Stones can probably sleep easy.

    All IMHO of course, and I wont call you a bunch of t***s if your opinion differs!?

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by washsaint View Post
    See out forum experts blamed him for the City goal on Sunday whereas it was actually Hoedt playing Jesus onside that was the culprit. Still, why let any truth get in the way of reality eh?
    Thank **** someone else was watching the game.

  22. Default

    He’s a promising player who came on leaps and bounds last season, but has struggled this (as have far more experienced players). I thought he deserved great credit for his performance at Swansea , stepping in for Yoshida he did well. He also did ok on Sunday, but comparing him with stones is pointless, he’s in his first full season, the comparison should be with Stones in his first full season at Everton , not now. He also looks like he’s made of the right stuff, so that bodes well for learning from his mistakes. I’d defo keep, would be short sighted to bin him now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    He’s a promising player who came on leaps and bounds last season, but has struggled this (as have far more experienced players). I thought he deserved great credit for his performance at Swansea , stepping in for Yoshida he did well. He also did ok on Sunday, but comparing him with stones is pointless, he’s in his first full season, the comparison should be with Stones in his first full season at Everton , not now. He also looks like he’s made of the right stuff, so that bodes well for learning from his mistakes. I’d defo keep, would be short sighted to bin him now.
    Stephens is 5 months older than Stones. Neither of them can really be considered youngsters anymore.

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    Stones is far better than Stephens, what a stupid debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    Stephens is 5 months older than Stones. Neither of them can really be considered youngsters anymore.
    Duckhunter's point is that Stones is a lot more experienced.

    It's a daft comparison though. Stephens doesn't have to be as good as Stones to be good for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuncanRG View Post
    Duckhunter's point is that Stones is a lot more experienced.

    It's a daft comparison though. Stephens doesn't have to be as good as Stones to be good for us.
    IMO he is neither.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bourne Valley Saint View Post
    Stephens is a decent centre half and I would be really disappointed if he were to be overlooked in favour of yet another anonymous signing. He stepped up to the mark last season when Vardy cropped VVD and has put in many decent performances this season. Of course he could be better in some aspects but without a commanding presence alongside such as VVD, Fonte, Toby, its not that easy for a young player to gain experience quickly. He's comfortable on the ball, a good tackler and puts his body on the line for the cause. Why do some people constantly criticise our own home (almost) grown players? Earlier in the year Targett was getting stick - he's shoved that right back up you with his performances for Fulham. Ward-Prowse is another - he's improved immensely this season and playing for Saints actually means something to these players, unlike some who have worn the shirt this season!
    Well said that man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaMarlin View Post
    Sunday was the ideal opportunity to provide a direct comparison between John Stones and Jack Stephens.

    Considering City paid £47.5m for Stones, is he THAT much better than Stephens if, indeed, he is better?

    Discuss.
    Bednarek looks better than both of them at defending on what I've seen so far. Functional defender, marks well, good in the air, decent positioning, quick and capable on the ball and decent distribution and awareness.
    Last edited by The9; 15-05-2018 at 09:02 PM.

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    Thank you for injecting a little bit of sense into the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by VectisSaint View Post
    Stones is certainly not significantly better than Stephens. There are some people whose opinion of Stephens on here is just ridiculous. The oft trotted-out bit about him not being able to head the ball is the biggest load of nonsense possible. Clearly peole don't actually watch his play (I gave up counting the number of headed interceptions and clearances is one recent game (Boscombe?) when I got to double figures around half-time. Stephens is a very good CB, arguably the best we have (certainly better than Wesley ****ing Hoedt who is a nightmare, but will be very good one day). The heading thing is so old school, there are very few teams nowadays in the PL where you need a tall dominating CB, only the teams at the bottom end of the table rely on tall dominating strikers, much better to be able to deal with the likes of Aguero, etc., fast agile strikers. Even so Stephens is perfectly good against the taller ones. Sunday highlighted the future, Stephens will be our skipper in the fairly near future I would imagine, thats the way our managers seem to be heading. He will also be an England international after this world cup. Them's my predictions anyway, based on actually watching him play and appreciating a British Saints developed player rather than the usual Carlos Kickaball who has to be better because we paid a lot of money for him. Anyway, that said we need to bring in 2 more CBs this summer if we are going to play 3 at the back next season as I expect (assuming Gardos goes). We can't go through a season with 4 CBs.

  30. #30

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    Stephens could be a decent DM, good tackling, blocking and great on the ball, but terrible at marking and defensive heading despite his attacking heading is half decent.

    He is only 24 so can develop but sadly that needs to away from St Marys for a season, last chance to develop at CB or play a different position if he wants to play regular premier league football.

    Rather develop Bednarek and Hoedt ( who is also 24), I think them two can become top CBs for us and teams outside the top 6.

  31. #31

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    I would say despite the flack Jack is getting, Hoedt has been a far bigger disappointment than Stephens this season.

  32. Default Stephens v Stones

    Quote Originally Posted by sammysaint View Post

    Rather develop Bednarek and Hoedt ( who is also 24), I think them two can become top CBs for us and teams outside the top 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint IQ View Post
    I would say despite the flack Jack is getting, Hoedt has been a far bigger disappointment than Stephens this season.

    Agree with IQ. The post above sums it up perfectly. Hoedt has been woeful pretty much all season, without having the good run that Jack had last season. Yet people want to keep and develop Hoedt and bin Jack. I’d keep both of them, but if one had to go it certainly wouldn’t be Stephens. For a £15 million signing, Hoedts been a major disappointment.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Agree with IQ. The post above sums it up perfectly. Hoedt has been woeful pretty much all season, without having the good run that Jack had last season. Yet people want to keep and develop Hoedt and bin Jack. I’d keep both of them, but if one had to go it certainly wouldn’t be Stephens. For a £15 million signing, Hoedts been a major disappointment.



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    Personally I don't think either of them are currently good enough to be first choice. I'd probably sell hoedt and bring in two new cbs but I know that's incredibly unlikely.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuncanRG View Post
    Duckhunter's point is that Stones is a lot more experienced.

    It's a daft comparison though. Stephens doesn't have to be as good as Stones to be good for us.
    Agreed, but he does need to be a quality player and not just there because he is home grown and cheap. We need Prem standard players and he is not one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint IQ View Post
    I would say despite the flack Jack is getting, Hoedt has been a far bigger disappointment than Stephens this season.
    They've both been guff. When Yoshida becomes your best regular starting CB you know the standard has slipped. Bang average ().

  36. Default

    Jack is a good player, get off his back

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    Quote Originally Posted by davefoggy View Post
    Jack is a good player, get off his back
    Friend of yours? I mean on a global scale he's made a couple of seasons of Premier League appearances so yeah he's a decent footballer, but he's been at least partially responsible for more goals than I care to remember in the last 18 months and if it wasn't for an apparent shortage of alternatives and a stated commitment by the club cheeses to develop youth players last season he'd have got the hook long before the end of the season, and he's not shown any noticeable improvement this season either. Starting to think a DM position might work better for his skillset.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by davefoggy View Post
    Jack is a good player, get off his back
    He has the ability but needs direction. If he were able to play alongside Fonte, he would've developed fast and be off to Liverpool in no time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The9 View Post
    Friend of yours? I mean on a global scale he's made a couple of seasons of Premier League appearances so yeah he's a decent footballer, but he's been at least partially responsible for more goals than I care to remember in the last 18 months and if it wasn't for an apparent shortage of alternatives and a stated commitment by the club cheeses to develop youth players last season he'd have got the hook long before the end of the season, and he's not shown any noticeable improvement this season either. Starting to think a DM position might work better for his skillset.
    Not been at fault for as many in those 18 months as Hoedt has in just this season alone !

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    Quote Originally Posted by The9 View Post
    Friend of yours? I mean on a global scale he's made a couple of seasons of Premier League appearances so yeah he's a decent footballer, but he's been at least partially responsible for more goals than I care to remember in the last 18 months and if it wasn't for an apparent shortage of alternatives and a stated commitment by the club cheeses to develop youth players last season he'd have got the hook long before the end of the season, and he's not shown any noticeable improvement this season either. Starting to think a DM position might work better for his skillset.
    Has been responsible for less goals in the last 18 months than you can remember I think you mean. Another myth about Stephens along with the one about not being able to head the ball. In fact our CBs have been directly responsible for very few goals between them other than a few by Hoedt who for some reason seems to be immune from the criticism, presumably because he was a big transfer foreign import.

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    Jack is a class centre back. People should get off his back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VectisSaint View Post
    Has been responsible for less goals in the last 18 months than you can remember I think you mean. Another myth about Stephens along with the one about not being able to head the ball. In fact our CBs have been directly responsible for very few goals between them other than a few by Hoedt who for some reason seems to be immune from the criticism, presumably because he was a big transfer foreign import.
    If you're talking about myths then you've just invented the biggest of the lot. There are literally pages of threads with many people criticising Hoedt.

  43. #43

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    Jack Stephens has come through the ranks, has a good attitude and demonstrated he can score goals. I support Saints partly to watch players like him.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by davefizzy14 View Post
    Jack is a class centre back. People should get off his back.
    he’s is certainly not ‘class’

    Stones is pretty average, but he is considerably better than Stephens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    he’s is certainly not ‘class’

    Stones is pretty average, but he is considerably better than Stephens.
    Well from what I've seen watching him play I think he is class. Would like to see a new top quality dominant CB alongside him.

  46. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SKD View Post
    he’s is certainly not ‘class’

    Stones is pretty average, but he is considerably better than Stephens.
    Amazing that Pep puts up with an “average” centre half isn’t it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergei Gotsmanov View Post
    Jack Stephens has come through the ranks, has a good attitude and demonstrated he can score goals. I support Saints partly to watch players like him.
    He had already played first team games for Plymouth when we signed him, so I think that's a bit of a stretch, tbh.

    Personally, I don't think either he or Hoedt are good enough for a side that aspires to be a regular in the top half of the Premier League. Perhaps alongside a more dominant leader, they might be able to be the Lundekvam equivalent alongside Svensson/Richards/Monkou over time, but neither of them are at that level yet. Whether we have the time to bring them up to speed is open to debate - the narrow escape this season suggests perhaps not.

    Bednarek, despite having had a shocker on his debut against Wolves and then being completely forgotten about for months, has shown much more in his short spell in the side than either of those two over the whole season, IMO.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Amazing that Pep puts up with an “average” centre half isn’t it?


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    He only played in 18 PL games and 5 CL games. Would suggest to me that he doesn’t really.

    He has potential don’t get me wrong, but he has a long way to go yet. Let’s not forget you’re the same fella who said Stephens was better than Maguire

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevegrant View Post
    He had already played first team games for Plymouth when we signed him, so I think that's a bit of a stretch, tbh.

    Personally, I don't think either he or Hoedt are good enough for a side that aspires to be a regular in the top half of the Premier League. Perhaps alongside a more dominant leader, they might be able to be the Lundekvam equivalent alongside Svensson/Richards/Monkou over time, but neither of them are at that level yet. Whether we have the time to bring them up to speed is open to debate - the narrow escape this season suggests perhaps not.

    Bednarek, despite having had a shocker on his debut against Wolves and then being completely forgotten about for months, has shown much more in his short spell in the side than either of those two over the whole season, IMO.
    Agree with all of this. Bednarek looks more like a centre half who wants to defend, rather than just being alright on the ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergei Gotsmanov View Post
    Jack Stephens has come through the ranks
    Quote Originally Posted by stevegrant View Post
    He had already played first team games for Plymouth when we signed him, so I think that's a bit of a stretch, tbh.
    No it isn't. He joined at 17 years old and played a season for Southampton academy's under 18s and then played for Southampton academy's under21/23s and then the first team. Sure Plymouth deserve credit for his development from 8 to 17, but laying for 3 different teams within Saints is 'coming through the ranks'.

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