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Thread: Why is our Academy not producing Premier League Players

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    Default Why is our Academy not producing Premier League Players

    I feel that one of our problems is the lack of to class Academy players coming in to our PL causing the club to buy average players from abroad.

    JWP has played something like 200 games and has been around a long time.

    Stephens is only playing because we have no other choice and came from Plymouth I think.

    Sims McQueen and Hesketh have been lurking about for some time but are only bit players as they play very little.

    What can be done if anything to bring players like OXO Bale Walcott Shaw Lallana Dyer Chambers etc through to the PL

    We just seem to be producing Div 1 and Championship players

  2. #2

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    Is it not more that it's very difficult to bring youth players into a Prem squad

    How many of the above listed came through in the Prem? Just Shaw & Chambers? Agree that we should be bringing more through than currently, but lets be fair...Targett, Hesketh, Gallagher, Sims, McQueen, Reed are all on the fringes and could probably do a job as squad players at a minimum in the Prem...

    JWP and Stephens playing regularly in the prem - not that bad.

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    So what you're saying is that apart from JWP, Sims, Hesketh, McQueen, Targett, Stephen, Oxo, Bale, Shaw, Wallcott, Chambers, Lallana, Dyer, Surman we've produced absolutely no PL quality?

    Or am I missing the point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    I feel that one of our problems is the lack of to class Academy players coming in to our PL causing the club to buy average players from abroad.

    JWP has played something like 200 games and has been around a long time.

    Stephens is only playing because we have no other choice and came from Plymouth I think.

    Sims McQueen and Hesketh have been lurking about for some time but are only bit players as they play very little.

    What can be done if anything to bring players like OXO Bale Walcott Shaw Lallana Dyer Chambers etc through to the PL

    We just seem to be producing Div 1 and Championship players
    Of your example players...

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    What can be done if anything to bring players like OXO Bale Walcott Shaw Lallana Dyer etc through to the PL
    - Oxlade-Chamberlain did not play for the Southampton first team above League One
    - Bale did not play for the Southampton first team above the Championship
    -
    Walcott did not play for the Southampton first team above the Championship
    - Shaw played for the Southampton first team in the Premier League because we were a newly promoted side, he was exceptional and the competition was Danny Fox
    - Lallana gained experience through multiple seasons with us in the lower league and didn't play in the Premier League until he was into his early 20s
    - Dyer did not play for the Southampton first team above the Championship

    Why have you written off the current academy players? Targett, Ward-Prowse, Sims, McQueen, Stephens have all had good exposure to the first team and others in age groups below will likely do the same and gain experience on loan before reaching the quality level required for Premier League football.

    The quality bar is now higher to reach our first team, so where as in League 1 or the Championship a player might make the first team in their teens they now have to be exceptional to do so in the Premier League whilst a teenagers. Due to the rise in first team quality many young players will need to gain experience on loan int he Football League and may then be ready for us when they are in their early 20s.


    Last edited by Matthew Le God; 15-05-2018 at 02:17 PM.

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    Please highlight the other Prem clubs that play a load of academy players.
    The one/two will come eventually.

    I blame the foreign imports if anything.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    Why have you written off the current academy players? Targett, Ward-Prowse, Sims, McQueen, Stephens have all had good exposure to the first team and others in age groups below will likely do the same and gain experience on loan before reaching the quality level required for Premier League football.

    The quality bar is now higher to reach our first team, so where as in League 1 or the Championship a player might make the first team in their teens they now have to be exceptional to do so in the Premier League whilst a teenagers. Due to the rise in first team quality many young players will need to gain experience on loan int he Football League and may then be ready for us when they are in their early 20s.

    Of your example players...



    - Oxlade-Chamberlain did not play for the Southampton first team above League One
    - Bale did not play for the Southampton first team above the Championship
    -
    Walcott did not play for the Southampton first team above the Championship
    - Shaw played for the Southampton first team in the Premier League because we were a newly promoted side, he was exceptional and the competition was Danny Fox
    - Lallana gained experience through multiple seasons with us in the lower league and didn't play in the Premier League until he was into his early 20s
    - Dyer did not play for the Southampton first team above the Championship
    Are you suggesting that Bale, Lallana, Oxo, Walcott wouldn't get in the starting 11 of a premiership side when younger?

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    Because we weren't a premier league club when the current crop of academy players and graduates joined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    Are you suggesting that Bale, Lallana, Oxo, Walcott wouldn't get in the starting 11 of a premiership side when younger?
    They would have found it harder. Bale broke into the side as a left back when we were in the Championship. If Bale was 17 and at the club now he'd be competing with Bertrand and Bertrand is currently better than Bale was when Bale was 17.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    They would have found it harder. Bale broke into the side as a left back when we were in the Championship. If Bale was 17 and at the club now he'd be competing with Bertrand and Bertrand is currently better than Bale was when Bale was 17.
    But if we had Bale we wouldn't sign Bertrand........

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    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    I feel that one of our problems is the lack of to class Academy players coming in to our PL causing the club to buy average players from abroad.

    JWP has played something like 200 games and has been around a long time.

    Stephens is only playing because we have no other choice and came from Plymouth I think.

    Sims McQueen and Hesketh have been lurking about for some time but are only bit players as they play very little.

    What can be done if anything to bring players like OXO Bale Walcott Shaw Lallana Dyer Chambers etc through to the PL

    We just seem to be producing Div 1 and Championship players
    Stephens is not playing "because we have no other choice", why do people keep on bashing the lad, he is a top quality CB who has done well in 1.5 seasons in the PL, he will get better, but he is certainly not a disgrace. yes he came from Plymouth, but he is still our Academy product. JWP is OK, but his lack of pace is stopping him ever getting to be top class.

    But besides that, cutting through the ******** of your post, you do have a point. Our Academy needs a big shake up, while Hunter remains in charge we will not see a great improvement, one of the key ones that needs to be shown the door. The u18s have developed well this season though, following the appointment of Danny Butterfield, that's where our next stars are likely to emerge. But it is very difficult to break into the 1st team in the PL. Look at all of the players you mention and almost all broke through when we were in the Chumpionship or L1. So, if you want to see stars coming through from the Academy more often it is clear you need us to drop down a division or two, hopefully that won't happen. There are players good enough in the Academy to be in the 1st team squad, but managers (Koeman, Puel and Pell) wouldn't take the risk, maybe Sparky will be a little different. Its the way of modern football in this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    But if we had Bale we wouldn't sign Bertrand........
    My hypothetical scenario was if we had Bale aged 17 now in the Premier League rather than Championship, Bertrand signed 4 years ago... at which point this version of Bale would have been 13 years old. So why wouldn't the club have signed Bertrand?

  12. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    My hypothetical scenario was if we had Bale aged 17 now in the Premier League rather than Championship, Bertrand signed 4 years ago... at which point this version of Bale would have been 13 years old. So why wouldn't the club have signed Bertrand?
    Because we would have had Shaw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    Because we would have had Shaw.
    How have you figured that out? Shaw left in 2014, my hypothetical is a 17 year old Bale at Saints in 2018 would struggle for games at left back due to Bertrand.

  14. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    How have you figured that out? Shaw left in 2014, my hypothetical is a 17 year old Bale at Saints in 2018 would struggle for games at left back due to Bertrand.
    He would play Left Midfield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Stephens is only playing because we have no other choice and came from Plymouth I think.
    The club made the choice for Stephens to be a first choice player.

    He did come from Plymouth, but Stephens played a season for Southampton academy under 18s & the under 21/23s so that makes him a Southampton & Plymouth academy product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nta786 View Post
    Please highlight the other Prem clubs that play a load of academy players.
    The one/two will come eventually.

    I blame the foreign imports if anything.
    I don't really care about other clubs but as there are dozens of English players in the League most will have come from some club's Academy.

    What concerns me is that the Club is not producing top class players which I thought was their aim by investing in the Academy and like you say we then buy average foreign players

    I thought we were supposed to have one of best Academies in the World

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    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    He would play Left Midfield.
    Again, I doubt it. I think Redmond would still be preferred over a 17 year old Bale, sure Bale would have been good enough for the first team squad but I doubt he'd be starting as first choice. Plus of course it wouldn't have taken Bale long to become first choice, but it was easier for Bale, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Lallana etc to get Saints 1st team games when we were not in the Premier League. Our youth players need now to go on loan to build up to a level where they are good enough for the first team in the Premier League.

  18. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    Again, I doubt it. I think Redmond would still be preferred over a 17 year old Bale, sure Bale would have been good enough for the first team squad but I doubt he'd be starting as first choice. Plus of course it wouldn't have taken Bale long to become first choice, but it was easier for Bale, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Lallana etc to get Saints 1st team games when we were not in the Premier League. Our youth players need now to go on loan to build up to a level where they are good enough for the first team in the Premier League.
    I stopped reading at this point, "Again, I doubt it. I think Redmond would still be preferred....."

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    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    I stopped reading at this point, "Again, I doubt it. I think Redmond would still be preferred....."
    Perhaps you should have read the rest to see it in context. Of course Bale is light years ahead of Redmond now, but when Bale was 17 years old he wouldn't find it easy displacing senior first team players like in 2006 when he was competing in the Championship for a starting role.

  20. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    Perhaps you should have read the rest to see it in context. Of course Bale is light years ahead of Redmond now, but when Bale was 17 years old he wouldn't find it easy displacing senior first team players like in 2006 when he was competing in the Championship for a starting role.
    I'd play 17 year old Bale over Redmond, i'd even play a 17 year old hay bale over Redmond. He is a bang average "winger". Thanks for your time.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by nta786 View Post
    Please highlight the other Prem clubs that play a load of academy players.
    The one/two will come eventually.

    I blame the foreign imports if anything.
    Arsenal?

    They are the only ones I can think of who have probably played academy graduates a lot.

    Iwobi, Wilshere, Maitland-Nisles, Nketiah, Reiss-Nelson and Willock are all players that have appeared in the league for them this year and are from their academy.

  22. Default

    Does any PL team bring players through their academies to the 1st team squad? The risk of playing a weaker player, when you can go out and buy a ready made player, means academies are less and less relevant. I would like to see the rules changed....note the 8 home grown players in a 25 man squad. Much stronger than that. Almost that 2 academy players have to be in the starting 11 each game. I know that that is fantasy stuff, but I hate the way teams (inc us) just see the solution being to spend, rather than to coach and develop. It doesn't help English football.

  23. #23

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    Odd conclusion given what other clubs manage to do. It's difficult, and we've been amongst the best of the non big clubs in the last few years so very difficult for young players. McQueen has done well when called on, Stephens has played a lot, Sims needs more chances and always impresses when he comes on, I still rate JWP highly. That's way better than most teams.

    There are plenty of talented youngsters at the club. Hopefully one or two will be first team players in the next few years.


    Personally I'd like us to use young players more. But fans just cry out for signings all the time. If we'd not signed Redmond and just given Sims his game time, where would we be? Easily as good for me. Could say similar about Carrillo and Gallagher. Expensive back up strikers rather than giving your own players a chance.

    Really hope we don't sign any central midfielders. With Lemina, Romeu, Hojbjerg and JWP there are plenty of options and I'd rather let Slattery come in and develop after that.

  24. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    I'd play 17 year old Bale over Redmond, i'd even play a 17 year old hay bale over Redmond. He is a bang average "winger". Thanks for your time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    I'd play 17 year old Bale over Redmond, i'd even play a 17 year old hay bale over Redmond. He is a bang average "winger". Thanks for your time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post


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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    The three amigos!

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    We have great facilities, but ultimately it's not the spacious lockers or the 3G pitches which make the players get better (though obviously it's good that a lack of facilities doesn't hinder their development).

    The most important parts of the 'assembly line' are the scouts who identify the talent in the first place, and the coaches who are responsible for developing it. If we've cut corners in these areas, either by penny pinching or giving "jobs for the boys", then we should expect to see the output of our academy decline.

  28. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    I'd play 17 year old Bale over Redmond, i'd even play a 17 year old hay bale over Redmond. He is a bang average "winger". Thanks for your time.
    Might be better to use the writing style that you used on your now protected twitter account rather than colloquialisms such as "bang average"? You wouldn't want people on here to start detecting inconsistencies in your posting style....

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    Quote Originally Posted by trousers View Post
    Might be better to use the writing style that you used on your now protected twitter account rather than colloquialisms such as "bang average"? You wouldn't want people on here to start detecting inconsistencies in your posting style....
    Hard to believe that one can construct such coherent sentences on here yet prefer "We go now to DEFEAT the bad WIGONE in the cup match! Let's be WARRIORS!" type messages on Twitter.

  30. Default

    Anyone else want to comment about me? Bang Average posters on here sometimes.

  31. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mrfahaji View Post
    Hard to believe that one can construct such coherent sentences on here yet prefer "We go now to DEFEAT the bad WIGONE in the cup match! Let's be WARRIORS!" type messages on Twitter.
    I just hope people don't think he's locked his twitter account to try and cover tracks, or anything like that. He seems like such a nice chap and would be a shame if people started casting aspersions...

  32. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by trousers View Post
    I just hope people don't think he's locked his twitter account to try and cover tracks, or anything like that. He seems like such a nice chap and would be a shame if people started casting aspersions...
    I locked it because i dont feel safe with the amount of attention. It's scary. But if it makes "trousers" happy i'll unlock it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trousers View Post
    I just hope people don't think he's locked his twitter account to try and cover tracks, or anything like that. He seems like such a nice chap and would be a shame if people started casting aspersions...
    niceandfriendly's been a bit quiet of late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    Anyone else want to comment about me? Bang Average posters on here sometimes.

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    If the academy players are never going to get a chance, then why bother having an academy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EkonOkereke View Post
    I'd play 17 year old Bale over Redmond, i'd even play a 17 year old hay bale over Redmond. He is a bang average "winger". Thanks for your time.
    You are my new favourite poster

    :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by VectisSaint View Post
    Stephens is not playing "because we have no other choice", why do people keep on bashing the lad, he is a top quality CB who has done well in 1.5 seasons in the PL, he will get better, but he is certainly not a disgrace. yes he came from Plymouth, but he is still our Academy product. JWP is OK, but his lack of pace is stopping him ever getting to be top class.

    But besides that, cutting through the ******** of your post, you do have a point. Our Academy needs a big shake up, while Hunter remains in charge we will not see a great improvement, one of the key ones that needs to be shown the door. The u18s have developed well this season though, following the appointment of Danny Butterfield, that's where our next stars are likely to emerge. But it is very difficult to break into the 1st team in the PL. Look at all of the players you mention and almost all broke through when we were in the Chumpionship or L1. So, if you want to see stars coming through from the Academy more often it is clear you need us to drop down a division or two, hopefully that won't happen. There are players good enough in the Academy to be in the 1st team squad, but managers (Koeman, Puel and Pell) wouldn't take the risk, maybe Sparky will be a little different. Its the way of modern football in this country.
    I don't want to bash the lad, and he has a lot of positive qualities but he is anything but a top quality CB at the present time. He's easily the weakest in our squad of not very good center backs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trousers View Post
    He seems like such a nice chap and would be a shame if people started casting aspersions...
    You wouldn't do that now, would you Trousers?

    Incidentally, and a propos of nothing, why do some people develop these internet personas? With some (MLG?) WYSIWYG, but others I tend to put up with them because it's obviously cheaper than paying for their mental health therapy.

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    Edit: Nevermind, it's been said already.
    Last edited by Lighthouse; 15-05-2018 at 07:27 PM.

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    Not being given opportunities not aided by the managerial churn.
    Hesketh prime example. Came in under Koeman did ok, got injured, came back in under Puel did well, got dragged off in a European game where every other player was playing equally badly. Hasn’t had an opportunity since.

  41. #41

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    [QUOTE=Saint Garrett;2630342]Is it not more that it's very difficult to bring youth players into a Prem squad

    How many of the above listed came through in the Prem? Just Shaw & Chambers? Agree that we should be bringing more through than currently, but lets be fair...Targett, Hesketh, Gallagher, Sims, McQueen, Reed are all on the fringes and could probably do a job as squad players at a minimum in the Prem...

    Targets, Sims and MQueen may be OK. The others are Championship level. The Prem is so strong that only a fraction of the academy will ever be up to the level. Stephens is not good enough in my view.

  42. Default Why is our Academy not producing Premier League Players

    ****ing hell its so simple, yet some of you can't seem to grasp it. If we were in league 1 or even the championship, we'd have 4 or 5 of our home grown players in our starting 11. If players are capable of playing regular premier league football at 16,17,18, they will not be in our academy, they'll be at Chelsea or City or someone else's. The game has moved on, even in the 3 or 4 years since Luke Shaw and Chambers emerged. The big clubs are snapping up pretty much all the talent. Occasionally, one may slip through the net, or be unusual in wanting to develop at a smaller club, but the days that 4 or 5 of our own are good enough to play regularly are gone. The step up to the first team is too big for nearly all of our nippers, because the best ones are elsewhere.






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    Last edited by Lord Duckhunter; 16-05-2018 at 02:35 AM.

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    I think it’s the nature of the league we are playing in, with so much money sloshing around and with so much to lose if you drop out of the league, whereas if we were bimbling around in the Championship the team would probably be overflowing with academy products. But because there is little room or time for experimentation in the Premier League the leaning is increasingly towards ready made “experienced” players who have had their wrinkles ironed out at other clubs.
    Bit like everyone in your street has arranged to have a pub crawl on a Saturday night, everyone is having Chicken Kiev for dinner, you spent an hour and a bit making and cooking it yourself from scratch, everyone else in the street have all been to M&S and bought theirs ready made and it’s on their table in 30 minutes. Everyone from your street is in the 1st Pub having a merry time 45 minutes before you arrive and ready to move on to the next pub before you have had a sip of your first drink: or even already moved on to the next pub!

    As the saying goes Time and Money waits for no man........Sadly these days that saying is very apt for the Premier League.

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    People still eat chicken kiev? Is it still 1987?

  45. #45

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    EkonOkereke
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    Originally Posted by Matthew Le God
    They would have found it harder. Bale broke into the side as a left back when we were in the Championship. If Bale was 17 and at the club now he'd be competing with Bertrand and Bertrand is currently better than Bale was when Bale was 17.



    But if we had Bale we wouldn't sign Bertrand.......


    That we do not know



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    Quote Originally Posted by Baird of the land View Post
    Not being given opportunities not aided by the managerial churn.
    Hesketh prime example. Came in under Koeman did ok, got injured, came back in under Puel did well, got dragged off in a European game where every other player was playing equally badly. Hasnít had an opportunity since.
    I wouldn't say Hesketh has done enough to warrant a run in the side at any point - unlike Sims, Targett and McQueen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy Saint View Post
    I think it’s the nature of the league we are playing in, with so much money sloshing around and with so much to lose if you drop out of the league, whereas if we were bimbling around in the Championship the team would probably be overflowing with academy products. But because there is little room or time for experimentation in the Premier League the leaning is increasingly towards ready made “experienced” players who have had their wrinkles ironed out at other clubs.
    Bit like everyone in your street has arranged to have a pub crawl on a Saturday night, everyone is having Chicken Kiev for dinner, you spent an hour and a bit making and cooking it yourself from scratch, everyone else in the street have all been to M&S and bought theirs ready made and it’s on their table in 30 minutes. Everyone from your street is in the 1st Pub having a merry time 45 minutes before you arrive and ready to move on to the next pub before you have had a sip of your first drink: or even already moved on to the next pub!

    As the saying goes Time and Money waits for no man........Sadly these days that saying is very apt for the Premier League.
    Ironically one of the things we did do in 16/17 when we were not breaking the top 6 nor anywhere near relegation was play Stephens until it was very evident we needed to buy another CB. And then we bought Hoedt (and Bednarek who didn't get a look in until April) and sold Van Dijk and spent all season conceding goals as a result.

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