James Ward-Prowse

Unfortunately stats do lie, or at least numbers can be used to bolster weak arguments. The unattributed phrase there are "lies, damned lies and statistics" is well known, if not its origins at least its usage and meaning.

The stats that Mosin is using to back up his argument are obviously "correct" but so misleading. As it was my observation based opinion about JWP's performance yesterday that initiated Mosin's rant, I took some time to review that match. OK, so far I've only been able to do so through extended hiighlights (the 20+ minutes version, not the full match). Observation of these highlights renforces my opinion after the match, that JWP was very disappointing yesterday. Don't know how this got on to Redmond, I certainly nevr mentioned him. I'm no fan of Redmond, but he has been much better this season. He was average Friday, nothing more, but certainly did more for the team than JWP. The problem is that Mosin is basing much of his argument on the so-called "key passes" stat (JWP 4, PEH2, Valery 1, Bertrand 1, the rest combined zilch, according to whoscored.com). Now as far as I can tell, and its difficult to get a definitive answer, a key pass is one that leads directly to an attempt on goal (but not a goal, otherwise it would be an assist). So far I have been unable to find any what I would call key passes by JWP. The conclusion is that in fact in the case of JWP, the 4 key passes were 4 of his 7 corners, ones that resulted in an attempt on call, I assume the Vesteguard header and I think a Yoshida header, can't be usre of the others. Unfortunately key passes does not count for passes earlier in a play, and so the ball that Redmond threaded through to Bertrand for his cross to PEH very early on (I think this would be Betrand's Key Pass), and also the one that he threaded through again to Bertrand that Long missed (which should have been his 2nd), this one doesn't count for Bertrand as a key pass because Long ****ed it up completely. There was another key pass from Redmond later in the first half, which put JWP (ironically) in a dangerous position from which he tamely hit the ball wide of the goal post (which I think accounts for JWP's single shot), why this isn't counted as a key pass is a mystery. So there are three "key passes" which could have lead to goals but didn't, but none of the were counted as "Key Passes" by the statisticians. I used to have this argument with one of our hard of thinking friends on here with regard to Steve Davis and assists, the key to opening up a team is often the penultimate pass, not the one that directly leads to the goal/attempt, but stat collectors don't count these. Unfortunately people brought up on these stats don't seem capable of seeing beyond them and make them out to be the ultimate decider about who is the best or worst player. It is clearly nonsense. JWP (which is what my argumet was about yesterday) did almost nothing of note. His only real contribution offensively was from set pieces, and he made a complete pigs ear of some of them, and even the ones that lead to an attempt were really quite poor, by his standards. Using the stats which I distrust, whoscored.com also record how many touches each player took during the game. JWP yesterday mustered 37 touches in 90 minutes. For reference PEH took 55 touches, Bertrand 53 and Redmond 47. Only Bednarek, Long (24 in 61 minutes) and Gunn of the starters contributed less touches (even Gunn got to 29)). Now, factor in that JWP also took 7 corners and at least 2 free kicks, his contribution as a midfielder was actually quite shocking, he just never got involved. I'm not knocking him generally, he has been great recently, but Friday he was very poor. Having rewatched the game my opinion of his performance actually got worse. One of his other 28 touches was the wild slash at the ball that went to Mane who set Salah up directly for their 2nd. It got worse as well, I hadn't noticed that it was JWP tracking Henderson back for their 3rd, he had a clear opportunity to cut it out before it got to Gobby, but switched off at the ritical moment having done the hard work to get back with him. I dislike blaming individual players for goals but the best you can say is that JWP made a significant contribution to 2 of the 3 goals that we conceded by his poor play.

 

As I said, no idea how this got round to Redmond, but I'll stand by my opinion based on observation that JWP was very disappointing on Friday, and if Mosin or anyone else actually cares to watch the footage you will see the same. Redmond was not exactly outstanding, but outside of set pieces he contributed more that JWP by a long way. I await with interest the availability of the full re-run to see where those 4 key passes that JWP has been awarded actually came from, but I think I know the answer already. Hope JWP gets back to his recent strong performances in the next game when it will be more critical.

The ball to Bertrand for our goal against Liverpool was from Vest, not Redmond, Bertrand whipped it in and Hoj flicked it on for Long. Redmond took 47 touches and lost the ball 20 times ( 19 times more than JWP I might add ) his slash at the ball did not go to mane either, Mane and JWP tangled up and the ball from JWP shots rebounded off Manes foot and rebounded to Kieta who hit it first time to Salah 25 - 30 yards away, if you JUST WATCHED IT how can you get such simple things so so wrong? or you talking out your back side again?

Here right from the CLUBS mouth https://southamptonfc.com/first-team#season-stats JWP most creative player for us in League.

Ohh look match report on the clubs website, oh look it rates JWP higher, what a shocker. https://southamptonfc.com/matches/2018-19/saints-v-liverpool-2019-04-05 .

Defensive stats on whoscored, ohh look JWP higher, Attack stats, ohh look JWP higher https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1284900/LiveStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019-Southampton-Liverpool .

Skys report has JWP higher rated https://www.skysports.com/football/soton-vs-liverpool/391083

Do you want me to carry on? These all say JWP performed better.

Please, find one official report where it says Redmond was better than JWP, cause I cant find any.

Just want to add, for Hendos goal, Bertrand should have tracked his run, he was closet to Henderson when JWP and every one else was worried about what Salah, Firmino and Mane was going to do 3 v 3 situation and bang Hendo comes in to make 4 v 3 while Bertrand was having a much needed rest 5 - 10 yards closer to the half way line, watching Hendo make his 50 yard run. JWP is at fault too, but first blamer lies with Bertrand who gave up after5 yards of trying to keep up with Hendo.

Mosin - why do you have to compare JWP to Redmond all the time?

They both play 90mins every week.

They have different roles.

They are bith playing really well since RH came in, and Redmond has all season.

Whats the problem?!

The ball to Bertrand for our goal against Liverpool was from Vest, not Redmond, Bertrand whipped it in and Hoj flicked it on for Long. Redmond took 47 touches and lost the ball 20 times ( 19 times more than JWP I might add ) his slash at the ball did not go to mane either, Mane and JWP tangled up and the ball from JWP shots rebounded off Manes foot and rebounded to Kieta who hit it first time to Salah 25 - 30 yards away, if you JUST WATCHED IT how can you get such simple things so so wrong? or you talking out your back side again?

 

Do you want me to carry on? These all say JWP performed better.

 

Please, find one official report where it says Redmond was better than JWP, cause I cant find any.

 

Just want to add, for Hendos goal, Bertrand should have tracked his run, he was closet to Henderson when JWP and every one else was worried about what Salah, Firmino and Mane was going to do 3 v 3 situation and bang Hendo comes in to make 4 v 3 while Bertrand was having a much needed rest 5 - 10 yards closer to the half way line, watching Hendo make his 50 yard run. JWP is at fault too, but first blamer lies with Bertrand who gave up after5 yards of trying to keep up with Hendo.

I know that the ball for our goal was from Vest, I never mentioned it in my post. Don't know why you have mentioned this.

The ball hit Mane directly from JWP's wild slash at it (15.54 into this video https://highlightsfootball.com/video/southampton-vs-liverpool-highlights-2/). It is as clear as day.

See you are still relying on stats that only tell part of the story, no attempt to understand what is clear from actually watching the match. The stats are very interesting but they create a picture that is at odds with what actually happened in the match. I guess as you clearly did not actually watch the match you will not understand that. Still not managed to find the 4 key passes that JWP is alleged to have made (or not realised that they were in fact corners). Really not interested in your rants about Redmond, I never mentioned him in my original post, you have brought him into this for no apparent reason. But its quite clear from watching the game that Redmond was far more creative in the match, in any measure other than key passes (but he was not exactly prolific).

Reference your point about JWP only giving the ball away once - Whoscored.com says JWP passing accuracy was 66.7% (total of 18 passes, so I make that 6 went astray, 12 good passes). Redmond by comparison, had a slightly worse passing accuracy of 64.7%, but that was from 34 passes, in other words he made 22 accurate passes, 4 more than JWP even attempted.

As for talking out of back sides, well done for stooping to insults. Its the usual way of someone who can't comprehend an argument and can't admit tht perhaps their argument may be defective.

The ball to Bertrand for our goal against Liverpool was from Vest, not Redmond, Bertrand whipped it in and Hoj flicked it on for Long. Redmond took 47 touches and lost the ball 20 times ( 19 times more than JWP I might add ) his slash at the ball did not go to mane either, Mane and JWP tangled up and the ball from JWP shots rebounded off Manes foot and rebounded to Kieta who hit it first time to Salah 25 - 30 yards away, if you JUST WATCHED IT how can you get such simple things so so wrong? or you talking out your back side again?

.

I heard they making a special award for Redmond, its called the best space maker. its given to forward players who struggle to create chances for his teams to finish, Heard he was tipping Messi and Ronaldo to it, heard they get assists so are not allowed to be in the running for it. Best player in the world is Redmond says Arthur Antunes Coimbra ( Zico ) legend of the game, one of the best attacking players ever.

 

 

Heard Redmond up for the Ballon d'Or, was shown on sky Messi and Ronaldo arguing over who created the most space, both agreed it was Redmond, so they both decided to retire as they clearly cant compete with such amazing talent of Redmond, all the space Redmond creates makes messi's and Ronaldos goals and assists look worthless.

 

Be shocked if Redmond is a Saints player next year, all that space he makes, surely Real and Barca want such an amazing space creator on the team.. wow, forget them amazing passes crosses and stuff, just

watch the space, you can see paint drying near it.. OMG. clearly worlds best player next to long on the list of running and dribbling and creating space for other's...……..

 

 

 

Thought I would repost as mods seem fit to move my none rule breaking posts.. clearly i pay for a dictatorship forum, any chance of a refund on my sub pls? I agreed to your terms of use and your rules, and in none of them did it say if a mod disagrees with your opinion he can move it.

I can’t even be arsed to put a logical response to this. You’ve lost the plot fella.

Looks like a corner that an attacker gets their head on will count as a key pass under the opta stats as long as it heads towards goal. So not a hugely useful stat in comparing the contributions of Redmond and JWP since the latter gets about 4 or 5 uncontested opportunities to 'create' a key pass more per game.

Truth of the matter is they're both probably in the form of their lives right now, which says quite a lot about the baseline of mediocrity they're springing from.

A lot of effort here on a argument with little point.... Welcome to the internet.

A lot of effort here on a argument with little point.... Welcome to the internet.

Welcome to 2019 you mean. I blame Brexit.

Not his best performance today. Think James and Saints, as a unit, looked better when Rom came on and JWP moved further forwards.

Not his best performance today. Think James and Saints, as a unit, looked better when Rom came on and JWP moved further forwards.

I'm sure if you check the stats he was far more effective than Redmond ...

I have never had a chance to do one of these ITK things before, and I also laugh because it so tenuous but thought I would post it. One of the senior partners at my law firm (one of the biggest global firms) had a meeting with Levy's son (can not disclose contents of meeting but not football related). They meet very regularly and considers him a friend, probably helped that the partner is a big spurs fan. To cut a mid size story short, Levy's son said a few things that we all know. Alderweirald is gone-or if he's not- Poch is, but no way both will be at the club next season. Eriksen 90% gone and even Kane is not safe. But only likely one of those two latter will go. The Saints bit is for Spurs looking for replacements. Apparently Poch is not keen on spending the big, big megabucks (probably unlikely they will be available anyway) and that they are actively looking for young players with the sort of attitude that can fit neatly into the tight knit squad. Fits in with how he has spet money in the past. And that JWP is the one they are most keen on signing as Poch is a huge admirer and believes JWP will buy into the training regime and tactics as he has done so before. No reason for partner to make this up, he doesn't give a **** about us.

Of course, as I am 2 links in the chain away from the source, I have no idea how valid these claims. To me, it makes sense that he would be high priority for Spurs, but obviously hope not!

I have never had a chance to do one of these ITK things before, and I also laugh because it so tenuous but thought I would post it. One of the senior partners at my law firm (one of the biggest global firms) had a meeting with Levy's son (can not disclose contents of meeting but not football related). They meet very regularly and considers him a friend, probably helped that the partner is a big spurs fan. To cut a mid size story short, Levy's son said a few things that we all know. Alderweirald is gone-or if he's not- Poch is, but no way both will be at the club next season. Eriksen 90% gone and even Kane is not safe. But only likely one of those two latter will go. The Saints bit is for Spurs looking for replacements. Apparently Poch is not keen on spending the big, big megabucks (probably unlikely they will be available anyway) and that they are actively looking for young players with the sort of attitude that can fit neatly into the tight knit squad. Fits in with how he has spet money in the past. And that JWP is the one they are most keen on signing as Poch is a huge admirer and believes JWP will buy into the training regime and tactics as he has done so before. No reason for partner to make this up, he doesn't give a **** about us.

 

Of course, as I am 2 links in the chain away from the source, I have no idea how valid these claims. To me, it makes sense that he would be high priority for Spurs, but obviously hope not!

Very possible that Poch retains an interest in JWP. But would JWP want to go be a squad player at Totters, when he a first choice with us? He has probably come on the most of all the players under Hassenhuttl, so on balance I would be surprised if he wanted to leave us.

Very possible that Poch retains an interest in JWP. But would JWP want to go be a squad player at Totters, when he a first choice with us? He has probably come on the most of all the players under Hassenhuttl, so on balance I would be surprised if he wanted to leave us.

£££....

Apparently Poch is not keen on spending the big, big megabucks (probably unlikely they will be available anyway)

Ward-Prowse is under contract until 2022, he would not be cheap. Saints could put a huge price on him.

Ward-Prowse is under contract until 2022, he would not be cheap. Saints could put a huge price on him.

Well that's why the stress with the 'big big megabucks' which he would not command. More meaning a figure north of 80m. I suspect that we would accept an offer of 40-50m if it came? There are so many big clubs that are undergoing huge restructuring this summer and there are only so many world class players. Player fees are once again going to be astronomical. What we consider a huge price will only be relative.

40-50m?! This is Saints, we'd accept 25m for him probably.

I have never had a chance to do one of these ITK things before, and I also laugh because it so tenuous but thought I would post it.

It's a bit dangerous being an ITK on here but none of what you said seems ridiculous, and certainly Spurs would see JWP as being in their (Levy's) budget. I wonder if losing against Ajax will impact their spending?

PS: did you ever get that PM?

This time 4 months ago lots on here were saying that we should've flogged him off for 10 million in the January window (me included). Strange how things pan out.

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I’d be happy to drive him too spurs, would free up space for a quality midfielder

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If he's their Eriksen replacement, or their scouts are even considering that, then Spurs are in trouble.

Much as JWP has really improved in 2019, if someone would pay 30mill+ I would drive him there myself and I live in Canada.

I like him, and recently he’s shown a lot of fight. Would be sorry to see him go. Unless we ploughed all the dough into a quality cb of course

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The problem with this is that £30m isn’t actually a lot. We would do very well to find a player of JWP talent who would come to us for £30m. Far more likely we would bank £10m and buy a £20m dud. Until I see some evidence our recruitment has recovered from the disaster of the last 2 years, I don’t want to see any of our better players sold, no matter our top league goal scorer (which I believe he is...)

After 5 years of very mixed bag performances it would be mad to sell just when he looks to have cracked it.

After 5 years of very mixed bag performances it would be mad to sell just when he looks to have cracked it.

Everyone’s got a price Charlie, especially a player like JWP who’s not indispensable.

After 5 years of very mixed bag performances it would be mad to sell just when he looks to have cracked it.

I see it the other way around, his stock is at its highest right now and he could just as easily revert to type next season. If Spurs are offering £30m+ for him I’d take it.

Everyone’s got a price Charlie, especially a player like JWP who’s not indispensable.

Would be a shame to see him go just when he has become useful.

Of course, but would have to be a hefty price to make it worthwhile, i.e upwards of £35m.

 

Would be a shame to see him go just when he has become useful.

Let Ralph call the shots.

JWP is a good fit for us. He’s not top 6 material and he’s a good pro. It would say more about Spurs’ ambitions than ours if this ever happened.

Sell for 40m, buy Mooy from Huddersfield for half the amount who is exactly the same player - very one paced, good at set pieces and has a decent shot from range.

Plus will give us more coverage over here!

Would be a shame to sell him, academy product England international who has been a regular for 7 years in the Premier League, still young enough to improve, this generations Nick Holmes.

Hope he spends a few more years at St Mary’s and gets a prestigious game for his testimonial, 32000 fans singing James Ward-Prowse my lord for 90 minutes would be a special moment

These days money talks in football - that said Spurs are not the most prolific of payers - so if they are the only ones on the sniff round him, get rid of a few dead weights off the wage bill and if Ralph wants him Saints can match Spurs wage offer. I think Ralph likes him as he has responded to his guidance, we can all see that for ourselves on the pitch, a few times when a substitution has been made he has looked over to the sidelines and made a couple of steps over towards the touch line then realised that it’s not him coming off.

Some people as we see on here don’t rate him, maybe because he isn’t glamorous enough, some simply because he grew up in a family of portsmouth fans, others mock the dead ball specialist tag, but if you have actually watched him over the course of the season and not solely on a dodgy stream you can see he has improved, he is more confident on the pitch, he has much more bite in challenges. He has allowed Valery to thrive because Valery doesn’t have to think about leaving himself exposed when he ventures up the pitch.

Said it many times, Lawrie Mac always said a team is made up of Violinists and roadsweepers, JWP is possibly now between the two, works hard for the team, does deliver an evil dead ball and scores goals...........he has 2 games to possibly be the teams top scorer for the season, currently only one behind Ings, and whilst Redmond is launching them high and wide into the crowd with his very favoured right foot, JWP has enough confidence to smash one home from outside the box with his less favoured left foot without seemingly thinking much about it.

Based on this season, especially since Ralph’s arrival it would be disappointing to see him lured away. Pochettino apparently rates him, the England manager has always rated him, now he’s delivering what Saints obviously saw in him when they took him in at the age of 8.

I think in our current state selling one of our better performing players would be plain stupidity, and would probably annoy our manager as well. JWP is [probably one of our smartest players, he might not be the quickest or biggest or the flashest, but he's got a good football brain, he learns quickly and has clearly taken on board what the manager is trying to do quicker than anyone else. I think Ralph really likes him for that, his tactical awareness and ability to carry out what he wants on the pitch.

We need to rebuild, we have a decent core of good young players to do that around and JWP is one of those. He's essentially become a key player under Ralph, selling him now and then having to find a replacement, when we need to find upgrades in many other areas would just set us back.

Also £30 million is really not much these days. I mean Leicester paid like £25 million last summer for a Championship player in Maddison, and now after a decent PL season you'd expect him to cost like £40-50 million. And he's scored as many goals as JWP in about twice the games, granted hes got 7 assists but probably helps having a striker like Vardy to feed the ball to.

I think some people are greatly underestimating his value. We are looking at a potential 10-13 goal a season midfielder. I know he is yet to hit 10 goals in a season, but his form since January indicates that this is increasingly likely. That's in a team outside the top 6 where he has less chances. For reference he has scored more than Alli this season in the league and equal with some really good midfielders like Eriksen (who do have more assists, but also much better strikers). He also adds as a front line of press and covers so much ground. How many midfielders with that many goals can you get for 30m? Whilst he may not be considered a first XI player for many top 6 clubs, they do so much rotation anyway and is a really handy and intelligent player to come in. Hence why i hope we don't sell him!

Also he takes damn good penalty, which we all know has been a bit of a bug bear of ours since Lambert left. With VAR coming in next season that will become an even more valued skillset.

I think some people are greatly underestimating his value. We are looking at a potential 10-13 goal a season midfielder. I know he is yet to hit 10 goals in a season, but his form since January indicates that this is increasingly likely. That's in a team outside the top 6 where he has less chances. For reference he has scored more than Alli this season in the league and equal with some really good midfielders like Eriksen (who do have more assists, but also much better strikers). He also adds as a front line of press and covers so much ground. How many midfielders with that many goals can you get for 30m? Whilst he may not be considered a first XI player for many top 6 clubs, they do so much rotation anyway and is a really handy and intelligent player to come in. Hence why i hope we don't sell him!

 

Also he takes damn good penalty, which we all know has been a bit of a bug bear of ours since Lambert left. With VAR coming in next season that will become an even more valued skillset.

You wont get no sense here with JWP, they all hate him and cant wait for him to leave, don't see any thing out side of who can dribble and go past players. every thing else is meaning less, like the fact he is our most creative player and joint highest league scorer in a season he missed nearly half our games in a season that has been nothing but a fight for survival.

Ofc Him going to Spurs just means he is going to sit on the bench and warm it, not that Spurs want to play him to fed those awesome crossing into a team that have players that are great at getting on the end of crosses ….. ofc it wont be that.

JWP is league 1 at best, no top 6 team would ever want him and we should have sold him at the start of the season when Watford was sniffing around

You wont get no sense here with JWP, they all hate him and cant wait for him to leave, don't see any thing out side of who can dribble and go past players. every thing else is meaning less, like the fact he is our most creative player and joint highest league scorer in a season he missed nearly half our games in a season that has been nothing but a fight for survival.

 

 

Ofc Him going to Spurs just means he is going to sit on the bench and warm it, not that Spurs want to play him to fed those awesome crossing into a team that have players that are great at getting on the end of crosses ….. ofc it wont be that.

 

 

JWP is league 1 at best, no top 6 team would ever want him and we should have sold him at the start of the season when Watford was sniffing around

 

I often despair at the judgement that our players receive on here. We could sign Messi and they would moan he was poor in the air.

You wont get no sense here with JWP, they all hate him and cant wait for him to leave, don't see any thing out side of who can dribble and go past players. every thing else is meaning less, like the fact he is our most creative player and joint highest league scorer in a season he missed nearly half our games in a season that has been nothing but a fight for survival.

 

 

Ofc Him going to Spurs just means he is going to sit on the bench and warm it, not that Spurs want to play him to fed those awesome crossing into a team that have players that are great at getting on the end of crosses ….. ofc it wont be that.

 

 

JWP is league 1 at best, no top 6 team would ever want him and we should have sold him at the start of the season when Watford was sniffing around

 

I know I won't get any sense out of this but it was only one or two individuals saying about League 1, probably the same posters who said that about Mane as well. I've always thought JWP had potential and was more positive than many but as with much of the squad he had stagnated for quite a while under Pellegrino and Hughes. I had reluctantly reached the stage where I started to see him as a player that was technical but too lightweight and like Surman flitted between the PL and Champ.

 

Puel got a bit more out of him but in a very specific position and the flaw around imposing himself on the game consistently remained. RH dropped him from the squad initially - the links with Leipzig suggested he already liked JWP - to give a bit of a kick up the backside e.g. be more assertive, beef up and get as fit as you can be (a problem throughout the squad immediately post-Hughes). I still feel a loan to a Champ side in his late teens might have kicked on the physical development a bit earlier but JWP has clearly addressed that issue holding him back.

 

Huge credit to JWP, he's responded to RH extremely well. It might be better to give the credit to the player and manager for the sharp and sustained improvement which has got him back in the England squad and made him the player that a lot of posters - not neccessarily the loudest ones - thought he could be. Let's hope he keeps it up. I don't think Spurs would be the right move for him now - he needs another season at SMS in this form - but that's for the club and player to decide. He's a bright lad so I'm sure he'll have an idea on what's best.

You wont get no sense here with JWP, they all hate him and cant wait for him to leave, don't see any thing out side of who can dribble and go past players. every thing else is meaning less, like the fact he is our most creative player and joint highest league scorer in a season he missed nearly half our games in a season that has been nothing but a fight for survival.

 

 

Ofc Him going to Spurs just means he is going to sit on the bench and warm it, not that Spurs want to play him to fed those awesome crossing into a team that have players that are great at getting on the end of crosses ….. ofc it wont be that.

 

 

JWP is league 1 at best, no top 6 team would ever want him and we should have sold him at the start of the season when Watford was sniffing around

 

Don't be so stupid, no one hates him its just they don't put him on a pedestal like you do.

Lots of us appreciate that he is a decent player but don't go to OTT with praise as is your tendency.

He isn't as good as you claim and he is not poor as several on here make out either

I used to think Lallana would never leave us, he had been with us from boyhood and I imagined being 'one of our own' counted for something. I was dumbfounded when he left because I then realised loyalty meant a lot to me (I've been a fan since the first game after the war) but nothing to the players I try to support and love. However, I still have the same feeling for JWP that I had for Lallana and I really think he is 'one of our own' who will stay and continue to give his heart to the club, like many fans inc me. He will become a long term legend, like Terry Paine, I hope.

Sell for 40m, buy Mooy from Huddersfield for half the amount who is exactly the same player - very one paced, good at set pieces and has a decent shot from range.

 

Plus will give us more coverage over here!

I can’t see Levy offering anything near that amount. He’s a notorious tightwad. He’ll probably offer something unrealistically low. JWP will probably have to run his contract down like Wanyama did, and JWP’s contract ends in 2022, I believe.

I often despair at the judgement that our players receive on here. We could sign Messi and they would moan he was poor in the air.

Doesn't track back enough either.

Just to add a Branfoot touch to the debate.

Key question: why are JWP being compared?

They are different players who do a different job for the team.

Both are having excellent seasons, with Redmond likely to win a fully deserved Player of the Season and JWP rightly in the top 3.

Why do they have to be compared to each other? Both will start every game in the same team!

Please keep Redmond stuff on the Redmond thread. There is little point comparing the two and it seems to be just the same polarised arguments when we do.

You wont get no sense here with JWP, they all hate him and cant wait for him to leave

I would add that I like JWP and cant see why you are always comparing the 2, when they are both in different parts of the set up of the team. The proof in the pudding will be when there is a bidding war for JWP. Hopefully that wont happen as it would be good if he develops with us.

The opinions on here are interesting. I do get those who question whether since Dec JWP is having a brief purple patch before returning to the frustrating footballer who didn’t stamp himself on games - hence sell whilst stock is high. So can I ask those with the sell opinion - would you still sell JWP for £35m if he maintained his current form ? and if so I why ?(ie think we can buy better, better to sell him than others etc). Personally I think if Ralph stays so does his form and we have a 10 goal a season midfielder on our books (which probably equates to c 10 points). Another question for fun - have we ever had a 10 goal a season midfielder in the Prem ??

I'd be nervous about selling in the hope of replacing with better....

Our track record in recent times is pretty naff after all.

Would much prefer us to offload the useless (Moi, Hoedt, FF ect)

He has allowed Valery to thrive because Valery doesn’t have to think about leaving himself exposed when he ventures up the pitch.

This is a really good point. If you lose JWP is there a danger of also losing Valery, at least in terms of effectiveness if not actually leaving?

Another question for fun - have we ever had a 10 goal a season midfielder in the Prem ??

Matt Le Tissier

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I can't see the logic in some of these arguments. If we sold him we would most probably get what he was worth. To replace him with similar quality and abilities we would need to pay a similar amount. We would lose a large wodge of agents' fees out of it.

What's the point?