Saints 1 West Ham 2 - Post Match Reality Check

It would be interesting to see Lemina's passing accuracy stats.

McCarthy really is an average Goalkeeper. First was awful from him, much like the goal at Huddersfield. Distribution is poor too.

I'm not going to pretend we didn't deserve to lose that, because WH were clearly the better team, but with the ref missing the rugby tackle on Bednarek right before their second goal, and Mccarthy being questionable for both of them, it's not unreasonable to suggest we might have got something out of it.

What the hell was McCarthy supposed to do with 5 unmarked opposition players bearing down on him???

What the hell was McCarthy supposed to do with 5 unmarked opposition players bearing down on him???

Whole team was a bit under power today to be fair. Not sure what happened - Ref didn't help but, we were second best all game. Hopefully it's out of our system and we get something against City and Chelsea (point each maybe?) to get us back on track.

Our problems are deeper than a two game euphoria.

I was impressed with West Ham, pace and power in abundance. Their defence was streets ahead of Arsenal’s when they played us, and the whole side are a different level than Huddersfield. So it was a lot harder than the previous two.

We were ponderous going forward and when we did get into good situations our delivery was woeful. The keeper is starting to wind me up, way too causal, but I didn’t think he had a chance with the second.

Bad day at the office.

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West Ham were excellent by the way. Strong, powerful, men against boys at times. Rice is a hell of a player too.

Disappointed after the two wins but we were beaten by a better team. What was most disappointing was that we seemed to give up the quick forward passing that served us so well against Arsenal. It was back to the play it sideways and backwards or, in Lemina's case, play it to the opposition. And when we will we ever sort out our throw-ins? We never seem to have a plan, take ages and give the ball away.

Disappointed with the result, but we did look tired and Ralph now knows Lemina is not a reliable replacement for PEH. However I cannot see the Officials getting a good score with their very poor performance. Amazing they (well mainly Carroll) were never shown a yellow card. Still should have known the Officials were not going to give us anything when I saw they were wearing the same colour shirt as Fabianski.

back to reality................and wake..........we were our old tired selves again last night,plus we were at home and west ham were themselves under strenght.There seemed no momentum there last night.

I dont think it would have made any difference who came off the bench last night there didnt seem to be enough creativity at all,still only Man city and Chelsea up next.

One can only assume you are about ten .... In your defence.

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west ham looked decent.

Although Valery and Targett may as well have been wearing claret and blue

West Ham were excellent by the way. Strong, powerful, men against boys at times. Rice is a hell of a player too.

Pretty much..

He is/going to be one hell of a player

Not sure West ham where all that certainly nothing special mainly they just seemed to be fresher with a bit more energy and pace than us. I was just looking at the stats and the game was pretty evenly balanced west ham had a few more off target shots, slightly more possession and a few more passes but the passing accuracy and shots on target where the same biggest disparity in the stats

WHU saints

fouls 3 10

yellow cards 0 2

I thought the ref was having a laugh I can't believe how many poor decisions he made last night.

Funny to read how different McCarthy's Performance is seen.

I think there's nothing he can do about the second, but he has to do better with the first. No matter if the ref is in the way or not, simply his positioning is wrong. He has to halve the angle from the ball to the two Posts. So if the ball is to the right of his right post, he has to move there a bit, but he even stands a bit left of the middle, which is totally wrong. He may not have stopped it any way, but why cover the far corner as for that he has a lot more time than the short one. So he for sure has to take some of the blaim.

Just watched the high lights on Sky and my thoughts are the same as last night we should have been given a pen before their second goal, having said that as good as our performance was against Arsenal last nights was poor.

the tiredness caught up with us. WHU had fresher and more powerful athletic players in midfield. Antonio was very good and it was a blessing for them that he was played there due to late injury.

You could see our players were slower and not at it , probably due to the extra work they are doing.

Sadly there is little in reserve to take some of the workload. As others have said Les left us with a load of nothing.

I don't agree about Valery and Targett playing poorly, they were just jaded like the rest of the team.

WHU are a very good side in the making and next season if not this will finish top 7

We will be fine this season, didn’t expect us to win this game. West Ham have very good players. Can’t see us getting anything from city, who have lost two recently and can’t see them losing three.

For me in jan we need some pace and a cb. If Cedric goes a rb would be great.

Ship out Long. Turd.

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I could see absolutely no way the ref could justify not giving firstly a card to Carroll for a deliberate kick to the ankle and a penalty to Saints for the right tackle on Bednarek.

 

Maybe not deliberate but close to it, and at least utterly incompetent. He was treating incidents in a way that was simply not consistent with the Laws.

 

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I don't think he gave us a free kick until the 55th minute, barring the odd off side. Not sure what price you would get for that on Paddy power.

In the space of 3 minutes Andy Carroll put his arm in Romeu's face, and then slides in with six studs and is not even talked too!

Finally he books Bednarek for a clash of heads with Carrol, when Carrol was the one who landed the blow!

Having said all that we looked tired and West Ham were better than us. Tactically we needed to find a way to get Redmond and Armstrong in behind their full backs and away from the excellent Rice.

Hope we have some fresh faces in on Sunday.

From arsenal, bidders, west ham and city we could have maybe expected/hoped for 4/6 points. We have that so it’s a good return. Confidence will be fragile with the players, just hope this result doesn’t effect that!

Not bothered by the result, Ralph had to see the weaknesses in the team firsthand before the transfer window opens and now he has.

I’m glad it’s not just me who doesn’t think McCarthy is as good as he thinks he is.

Not bothered by the result, Ralph had to see the weaknesses in the team firsthand before the transfer window opens and now he has.

 

I’m glad it’s not just me who doesn’t think McCarthy is as good as he thinks he is.

All players make mistakes. Goalkeepers' mistakes just tend to be more critical. He had no chance with that second last night. Maybe could have got a hand on the first but was unsighted, mainly by the ref's clever run in front of Anderson, but I lay as much blame with the defenders who just stood to try to block the shot rather than closing it down and attacking the shooter.

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Thats a byproduct of RH's system. With Redmond and Armstrong tucked inside, it leaves plenty of space down the flanks. It puts additional pressure on the central midfielders to cover sideways across the pitch. Lemina can do it but lacks the discipline. Romeu has the football brain but not the mobility. PEH, whatever his faults on the ball, does that job well and was a miss tonight.

And if you watched from the very first minute, it's what West Ham game plan was - quick passing so our pressing didn't work, and then overload the flanks so the full backs didn't have the chance to get forward as quickly - meaning when we had the ball we were outnumbered in midfield, which is why we looked slow and ponderous and gave the ball away a lot due to a lack of outlets.

It was an extremely clever system deployed by Pellegrini - one of the old tactical masters.

It was hilarious when Armstrong was handed a note by Austin and he read it twice and then flicked it over and back again.

I still don’t think he knew what the message meant.

I think you'll find the majority are happy with McCarthy. I'm finding the campaign to find fault each game a bit of a witch hint.

 

All players make mistakes. Goalkeepers' mistakes just tend to be more critical. He had no chance with that second last night. Maybe could have got a hand on the first but was unsighted, mainly by the ref's clever run in front of Anderson, but I lay as much blame with the defenders who just stood to try to block the shot rather than closing it down and attacking the shooter.

 

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Yeah I'm really not sure why people have an issue with McCarthy he is a decent competent keeper, he is no world beater for sure, but he pulls off plenty of good saves no keeper saves everything. Out of the whole squad the one area I'm not worried about is GK.

Just for those Lemina haters:

Pass success in match (highest Saints):

Armstrong 85%

Romeu 84%

Lemina 83%

He also had 6 tackles (second most on team) and 2 completed dribbles (joint second most on team). He was also dispossed twice (most on team).

He wasn't great, but it was more that the things that make people say he's our most talented player just didn't come off today. The attitude towards him seems like Mane when he joined us...wonder what they had in common?

We should come out if the Chelsea game still above the bottom 3

That would be decent in a busy period of games that included Arsenal, city and Chelsea

Just for those Lemina haters:

 

Pass success in match (highest Saints):

 

Armstrong 85%

Romeu 84%

Lemina 83%

 

He also had 6 tackles (second most on team) and 2 completed dribbles (joint second most on team). He was also dispossed twice (most on team).

 

He wasn't great, but it was more that the things that make people say he's our most talented player just didn't come off today. The attitude towards him seems like Mane when he joined us...wonder what they had in common?

Not in same league as mane. For me his attitude is suspect at times. I’d cash in.

Just scanned this thread hoping to find a link to some highlights. Does anyone know if there are any available?

No disgrace losing to a team that has now won 5 out of their last 6 games and have a far stronger squad than us. Add in the fact that Ralph is trying to get our players up to the required fitness levels which is always likely to hit home during the busy Xmas fixture schedule and it is not surprising our levels dropped last night. Next two games will obviously be tough so we need to see what, if anything, we get than go again. Our first aim is to finish above 3 sides and, looking at some of the dross at the bottom of the table, we should manage that comfortably.

From arsenal, bidders, west ham and city we could have maybe expected/hoped for 4/6 points. We have that so it’s a good return.

Indeed. I think that's the pragmatic way to look at yesterday's result (yes, I'm fully aware that saintsweb doesn't do pragmatism but bear with me...).

Yes, most of us were probably expecting more from last night (and with a decent ref we may well have snuck a point), but 6 points from Ralph's first* 4 games at the helm is an improvement on where we were.

(*don't think it's 'fair' to include the Cardiff game as he only had 2 training sessions beforehand which wasn't enough to exert a significant influence on the outcome IMO)

Pretty much..

 

He is/going to be one hell of a player

He can use both arms

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We will be fine this season, didn’t expect us to win this game. West Ham have very good players. Can’t see us getting anything from city, who have lost two recently and can’t see them losing three.

 

For me in jan we need some pace and a cb. If Cedric goes a rb would be great.

 

Ship out Long. Turd.

 

 

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I don't think Lemina was following Hasenhüttl's steps at all. Too much holding up of the ball and insecurities.

Added to the fact he reverted to the attitude we have seen all too often of him giving up when things went against him. Not sure if this came from lack of fitness. as it started in the last 10 minutes of the first half, but he was a liability for the team.

Thought Vestergaard was our best player, headers, blocks, interceptions and was generally good moving the ball forward.

 

Gave the ball away too much and again like Huddersfield we wasted good counter attack opportunities with poor final balls.

 

West Ham were neat and good on the ball, but we contained them for most of the game, few half chances to their striker but in the end what really costs us was bad refereeing.

 

More evidence of the need for VAR, that was Columbia vs Kane there, two hands all around him wrestling him to the ground, no eyes for the ball at all, blatant cheating and they get away with it and go and score the other end.

 

Plus Carroll should have been sent off, he smashes his arm into the face of Romeu within minutes of coming on, then tries to kick him in half a few minutes late, which could have even been a red card in itself and the he pulls one of our players back in a counter attack. Not one yellow for any of it.

Agree with all that. Shurlock must have mistaken Vestergaard for somebody else; he was solid pretty well throughout. Had we had the VAR though, Redmond's goal might have been disallowed.

I thought that Redmond might have turned a corner this season, but he was back to his annoying lightweight alter ego, running up blind alleys, keeping the ball too long and poor passing giving it away in attacking positions.

Hasenhuttl would have learned a valuable lesson last night, that Long isn't a valid substitute for Ings when you are chasing a game. All the things that we got right against Arsenal we ceased doing after 10 minutes, especially the high press closing. The amount of space that we allowed Andersen to shoot for his first goal was criminal. We had several chances to score, two in the first three minutes, but as is often the case, West Ham finished their chances and we didn't. There were at least a couple where you would have expected Ings to score, but Long couldn't.

Hasenhuttl has been very tactically astute up to now, but he got it wrong last night. Back to the same plan employed against Arsenal when we play City, please. They are the archetypal team that you can't allow to have the space to play their game.

My 4th visit to SMS this season. 1st time I didn't come away thinking we should have won the match; moreover, 1st time I thought we were completely outplayed and devoid of any attacking threat. Unfortunately, I once again witnessed a completely incompetent performance from a referee.

Given the time of year and number of matches being played I was surprised that there was only the one, enforced, change to the team. Unsurprisingly this meant no energy, no pressing and a real lack of ideas. After, fortunately, going into half-time all level but very outplayed I had expected a change or two and different formation for the second half, but it didn't happen. Also thought the substitutions, when they eventually came, were very ineffective. Hopefully the manager has learnt a lot from his and the team's dire performance last night.

Just for those Lemina haters:

 

Pass success in match (highest Saints):

 

Armstrong 85%

Romeu 84%

Lemina 83%

 

He also had 6 tackles (second most on team) and 2 completed dribbles (joint second most on team). He was also dispossed twice (most on team).

 

He wasn't great, but it was more that the things that make people say he's our most talented player just didn't come off today. The attitude towards him seems like Mane when he joined us...wonder what they had in common?

Lol at the stat man. Just watch the game and have an opinion.

We win or we learn. Back down to Earth with a bump. Watched this really ******ed so can't remember too much about it apart from their 2nd goal being a bit too easy and that pillock Carroll coming on and just hacking into people.

RH will have learnt a bit more about the team from last night. Thing Ings was brought off early to save him for City.

We win or we learn. Back down to Earth with a bump. Watched this really ******ed so can't remember too much about it apart from their 2nd goal being a bit too easy and that pillock Carroll coming on and just hacking into people.

 

RH will have learnt a bit more about the team from last night. Thing Ings was brought off early to save him for City.

Ings wasn't really doing much anyway. Why save him for City when you'd think we'd have a much better chance of a positive result against West Ham?

City won't lose 3 in a row.

Just for those Lemina haters:

 

Pass success in match (highest Saints):

 

Armstrong 85%

Romeu 84%

Lemina 83%

 

He also had 6 tackles (second most on team) and 2 completed dribbles (joint second most on team). He was also dispossed twice (most on team).

 

He wasn't great, but it was more that the things that make people say he's our most talented player just didn't come off today. The attitude towards him seems like Mane when he joined us...wonder what they had in common?

I must say he didn't stand out as being as terrible as everyone is making out. But admittedly I did turn it off in rage when they scored their second, so I'm only going on the first hour...

Perfect example would be when Valery (who was pretty hopeless) had the ball in the final third, had chance to play inside to Romeu, hesitated, lost the chance and eventually plays a 2-yard pass to Lemina. Lemina then tries to take someone on and loses it and West Ham break. No doubt everyone was criticising him for losing the ball but Valery gave it to him in a difficult position and he didn't have many options.

Lol at the stat man. Just watch the game and have an opinion.

I did watch the game, and said on the match thread he wasn't great, but nowhere near as people said he was. He was also accused of not being arsed, which was completely false.

The stats were in response to someone else on this thread that said they'd love to see how bad his pass percentage was.

the amount of yards Romeu and Lemina had to cover throughout the night to try and retrieve the ball after we had given it away cost us in the end. Just prior to their first goal, Romeu was like a dog chasing three rabbits down the right hand side, when the ball was worked forward by West Ham he got goal side, but he was too tired to race out to close Anderson on the edge of the box. He was the closest man and with time Anderson could pick his spot. You might say the same about the second. Yet again we are caught form our own corner, but 5 on 1 suggests at least one of our centre midfielders wasn't doing enough to chase back, probably because they were tired.

 

The second goal ranks right up there with amongst the worst goals we have ever conceded. How on earth do you end up five on one?

 

Can't fault the effort by the way. Not sure five at the back did us any favours in the end. Boy do we have a lack of flair to bring off the bench. A dogged runner in Long and a goal hanger in Austin doesn't exactly represent a change of pace. Need to invest in another dribbler that can help ease the burden on Redmond.

Boufal? Can he be recalled?

Cue the "disgrace of a man" and "awful player" etc comments, but if we don't have much/any money to spend in January and we already have a player who fits that description on our books, would we be better off using him and spending the money in a different area (e.g. right back or centre back)?

I did watch the game, and said on the match thread he wasn't great, but nowhere near as people said he was. He was also accused of not being arsed, which was completely false.

 

The stats were in response to someone else on this thread that said they'd love to see how bad his pass percentage was.

Ok didn’t see that but pass completion such a boll ocks stat. The sheer volume mask the key giveaways that actually matter

I did watch the game, and said on the match thread he wasn't great, but nowhere near as people said he was. He was also accused of not being arsed, which was completely false.

 

The stats were in response to someone else on this thread that said they'd love to see how bad his pass percentage was.

Romeu didn't track back because he was tired. Lemina (who was starting his first game in a while after being injured) didn't track back because he's lazy.

Just for those Lemina haters:

 

Pass success in match (highest Saints):

 

Armstrong 85%

Romeu 84%

Lemina 83%

 

He also had 6 tackles (second most on team) and 2 completed dribbles (joint second most on team). He was also dispossed twice (most on team).

 

He wasn't great, but it was more that the things that make people say he's our most talented player just didn't come off today. The attitude towards him seems like Mane when he joined us...wonder what they had in common?

Those stats surprise me actually I thought he was really bad. I wasn't watching the game specifically to criticise him, but I saw signs early on that he wasn't really at it. Looked liked he'd had too many Gin & #TonicLikeLeminade's.

A shame, because with Hojbjerg out, I really hoped he'd step up. He wasn't alone though.

I thought Armstrong & Vestergaard were probably our better performers last night.

 

Finally he books Bednarek for a clash of heads with Carrol, when Carrol was the one who landed the blow!

 

Bednarek's yellow card was deserved to be honest. Carrol went up for the header. Bednarek, coming from behind him, just jumped straight into him shoulder first with no attempt to get the ball. Not seen such a poorly disguised shoulder charge like that for a while. Old school centre half play.

Those stats surprise me actually I thought he was really bad. I wasn't watching the game specifically to criticise him, but I saw signs early on that he wasn't really at it. Looked liked he'd had too many Gin & #TonicLikeLeminade's.

 

A shame, because with Hojbjerg out, I really hoped he'd step up. He wasn't alone though.

 

I thought Armstrong & Vestergaard were probably our better performers last night.

A few people saying Armstrong played well.....

He is ok on the ball but off the ball he was very poor in my view. He doesn’t show for the ball enough and last night did not join in with the ‘press’ hardly once leaving Ings to tire himself out while he stood and watched.

Ings spoke to him several times about that during the game but still Armstrong didn’t press.

This contributed also to Antonio having the freedom of St Mary’s in the first half with Armstrong nowhere to be seen.

So yes ok on the ball but ok but off it not contributing enough and does hide at times.

I can't blame McCarthy for either goal, both well-taken. Agreed about the rugby tackle.

He was massively out of position for the first, just as he was for Huddersfield.

As mentioned before I have a friend who blew his chance at being a pro footballer, his hobby and main source of income is betting and his observation of the game is impressive. He stumbled on Ralph at Leipzig by chance and made quite a bit of money on their games but worked out the games to avoid, games like last night would have been one of them. I could see why.

Pelligrini has them drilled how he had City drilled the big difference is West Ham players don’t have the money no object finesse that he had with City, but he knows how to work with what he has, he has a winning pedigree he would never have got the job at City if he didn’t. The players he has certainly ain’t pretty but as we saw last night they are effective playing under him. Last night we ended up with 2 teams one drilled and settled against a team under a new regime playing a new style under with different disciplines, if reports about our training under Hughes were true then the Christmas schedule would be doing us no favours with the added intensity the team would now be playing. In the past West Ham would have hoofed the ball over Ralph’s system for players like Antonio to chase. Last night they bambozled us with their liquid midfield formation, using the width of the pitch and pretty much bulldozed us to suit them. With us still learning a different style of playing when that style wasn’t working we just resorted to our default setting for about the last season and a half, which as we witnessed is fairly inert.

Which against their monsters at CB and our Kryptonite between the sticks Fabianski (as my mate alongside me said he can’t recall him ever having a bad game against us) we were pretty much piddling into the wind.

All that said I certainly didn’t walk away from SMS as disappointed as I have after a defeat before Ralph rocked up.

Pretty miffed at the officials though, which was perfectly summed up by my little donkey entering the fray flattening Oriel then kicking him when the ball was gone with no punishment, the ref spoke to him at least 4 times, yet from my seat he flattens Bednarek, seemingly in my view, from behind and Jan instantly gets a yellow for, I guess, the rare offence of impeding.

Let’s get these last 2 Christmas games and the cup done and dusted and knuckle down to the ways of Ralph if we have enough petrol in the tank City and Chelsea might be better games for us as both will try to pass trough us, rather than bulldoze us like West Ham.

Alarm bells have started re-ringing.

Why Ralph has knackered us out so much we can’t compete in a winnable game is beyond me.

As is why he set us up so negatively and then failed to address it too.

Those stats surprise me actually I thought he was really bad. I wasn't watching the game specifically to criticise him, but I saw signs early on that he wasn't really at it. Looked liked he'd had too many Gin & #TonicLikeLeminade's.

 

A shame, because with Hojbjerg out, I really hoped he'd step up. He wasn't alone though.

 

I thought Armstrong & Vestergaard were probably our better performers last night.

I'd be interested to get yardage stats fir players. Romeu and Lemina seemed to be covering a lot of grass to me. Lemina also made quite a lot of gut busting box to box runs too. I thought those two were making up for the inadequacies of the wing backs and the ineffectiveness fo Ings and Redmond. Armstrong was quiet in the first half too, which left our midfield to do a lot of work. Lemina's body language can be terrible after he has made one of those long runs forward. He looks absolutely shattered, with shoulders hunched forward. That might be interpreted as him being deflated or dejected by some. Personally I love his effort and ability to recycle ball. He does give it away cheaply sometimes, but the flip side to that is he beats a man, gets between the lines and creates the attacking opportunities critical at this level. Without him we often look very one dimensional. The biggest drawback is that he wonders a lot leaving us exposed.