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Thread: Why do we concede so many late goals?

  1. #1

    Default Why do we concede so many late goals?

    Obviously we have lost a league high number of points (25) from winning positions, and many of those are due to late goals, with a good number after 85mins.

    Once or twice it can be bad luck or good play from an opposition, but over a long time period its a clear trend. I think these are a few possible reasons why:
    *
    1. Poor central defenders
    Our CBs are overall not great and a clear weak area in the squad. So much so, that we have to play with five defenders to compensate for it. As they get tired, or an opponent becomes more forceful, logic dictates that more mistakes are made, and there are clear examples of this happening. We don't clear the ball very well, and like yesterday, often end up being pinned back. It was noticeable in the Wolves game how many balls Vestergaard headed away, he was missed.
    *
    2. Poor defending against physical sides
    We have really struggled against the likes of Burnley, Stoke, Brighton at home, towards the end where those teams pump balls into the box or threaten from set plays. We are quite a small side, and struggle to clear the ball.
    *
    3. Tiring central midfielders
    In addition to playing with 3 CBs, we usually play two screening midfielders and Hojbjerg and Romeu get through a lot of work. Romeu always gets slower after 70mins or so, hence why he gets so many bookings later in games where its easier to foul someone. Hojbjerg has a good engine but can be sloppy in possession, and as his energy levels drop it gives the opposition more time on the ball. Until Lemina came back we havent really had a sub option in this position, if needed.
    *
    4. Lack of possession
    Since RH has come in we have become a really efficient counter attack team, but one that is happy to concede possession and then hit teams. The problem with this is that towards the end of games when we have something to protect we know the opponent will have a lot of the ball and that due to the time in the game we won't press them as much or get as close as we did earlier in the game, which gives them a better chance to create. I think one of Hasenhuttl's key challenges will be to add a bit more to our game whilst in possession.
    *
    5. Getting a second clear goal
    This is a big issue, especially in games like yesterday where its fairly tight but we have clear chances. In the PL any team can score at any time so you aren't even safe at 2-0 but it certainly helps a lot, like in the Leicester away game. We need to improve here and be more clinical when on top, like under Koeman.
    *
    6. Attacking style/tactics
    As we have few mobile strikers, RH seems to prefer keeping pace up front towards the end of games. In many ways this makes sense, and we often get chances on the break, but the likes of Redmond or Sims are never really going to be holding the ball up, meaning it often just comes back once cleared. I recall Pelle being outstanding at this late in games, and we don't have anyone who fulfils a similar role. In every squad there is room for a more physical forward IMO.
    *
    7. Pressure
    For the last two seasons we have been in a poor league position where dropped points have a tangible outcome and some games are absolutely vital. This must play on the minds of players and certainly makes for a tense atmosphere, especially at home, towards the end of games.
    *
    Most of these pieces can be improved upon I think, and certainly its a part of Saints' game that has to be improved as it has directly contributed to our league position, and whilst RH has worked miracles, it is still there as it was under previous Managers.

  2. #2

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    For Stoke read Cardiff!

  3. #3

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    because we are not a particularly good premier league side

  4. #4

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    Because we carry the likes of Stephens through PL games, when they aren't PL players. That needs to stop. Whilst Yoshida is decent, he's still not top level PL quality. Bedernak is arguably our best centre back now days and he's still young/growing. We have no dominant experienced presence in the back line and they panic.

    We are generally a very mentally fragile team because we recruited so many mentally fragile players over the last few years. We can turn that up in the summer and get the right sorts, then you'll notice a difference.

  5. #5

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    For me it's a combination of:

    Poor defence generally, as individuals and as a unit, all error prone.

    Mentally fragile and nervous edge to their game.

    Tactics - seem prepared under previous managers to sit back and invite opposition to attack us. Is this deliberate or due to fatigue ? Hard to eradicate that pattern.

    Tiredness and fitness levels effecting both energy and concentration (add the MF to this also perhaps) - didn't seem to happen when WGS was manager. Hopefully a summer training session under Ralph will sort it out.

    Just not "savvy" enough to manage a game out, need an Alan Ball or Jimmy Case figure leading on the pitch, but not there.

    Might also want to add the fact we never give ourselves a 2 or 3 goal cushion when we are on top. If we did the last minute goal conceded might not be as critical.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    because we are not a particularly good premier league side
    This is the crux of it to be honest.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    because we are not a particularly good premier league side
    Performances and points under Ralph would suggest otherwise.

    --------------------

    Personally I think we probably concede a little too much possession, there is a lack of concentration, our best two centre-backs, one is young and still learning, the other is still getting used to the league.

    The back up two are probably just not good enough.

    We also lack quality reinforcements in the full back, midfield and forward lines. We currently have one first team right back who is an inconsistent young player, we have one first team DM, who IMO is not mobile/physical enough for games against the likes of Watford, Burnley, Cardiff etc. Two other centre mids who have played almost every game and almost always 90 minutes, with the only real quality back up being Lemina who has been out for months.

    Plus yesterday, we had Long on from the start who is usually the legs/pace we bring on late game, our other strikers are not suited to this role aside Obafemi who is injured.

    Lots of little things really but to be honest we probably have 13-14 players at best who are good enough for mid table PL, some of those are still young/learning, a lot of the team are either under 24 or are new to the league. So there is not much game management experience.

    Once we dip into 2nd choices they are not good enough really.

    We need 3-4 quality players and it will then result in us being able to bring the likes of Long, Yoshida, Romeu etc. off the bench or be able to rotate these players in, making the squad fresher and fitter.
    Last edited by tajjuk; 24-04-2019 at 02:47 PM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    because we are not a particularly good premier league side
    Logic would suggest it can't be as simple as that. Under Hasenhuttl, outside of the Top 6, we are on a par with "the best of the rest", yet those teams that we are competive with don't seemingly suffer as much as we do with losing points from a winning position and/or conceding late in the game. Ergo, answering the question: "Why do we concede so many late goals?" with: "because we are not particularly a good premier league side" fails to identify why it seemingly happens more to us than it does to other teams that are as good as us overall.

  9. #9

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    We looked absolutely knackered in the last 10 minutes last night, even Simms and he was only on about 20 minutes.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    because we are not a particularly good premier league side
    absolutly spot on.........we panic defend and defend badly ...we sit too deep and pressure ourselves into making dredadful decisions at vital times.....saftey in numbers dosent always work players pass on responsability and blame each other......still lacking leadership on the field imo.

  11. #11

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    Confidence is such a key factor here. We have a recent history of conceding later goals - therefore it plays on player's minds and they perhaps play a little deeper and then history becomes reality.

    A few years back the opposite was true, we saw out many games when the pressure was on. Having a quality CB partnership (e.g. VVD + Fonte) helps install confidence that flows through the rest of the team.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusic View Post
    Obviously we have lost a league high number of points (25) from winning positions, and many of those are due to late goals, with a good number after 85mins.

    Once or twice it can be bad luck or good play from an opposition, but over a long time period its a clear trend. I think these are a few possible reasons why:
    *
    1. Poor central defenders
    Our CBs are overall not great and a clear weak area in the squad. So much so, that we have to play with five defenders to compensate for it. As they get tired, or an opponent becomes more forceful, logic dictates that more mistakes are made, and there are clear examples of this happening. We don't clear the ball very well, and like yesterday, often end up being pinned back. It was noticeable in the Wolves game how many balls Vestergaard headed away, he was missed.
    *
    2. Poor defending against physical sides
    We have really struggled against the likes of Burnley, Stoke, Brighton at home, towards the end where those teams pump balls into the box or threaten from set plays. We are quite a small side, and struggle to clear the ball.
    *
    3. Tiring central midfielders
    In addition to playing with 3 CBs, we usually play two screening midfielders and Hojbjerg and Romeu get through a lot of work. Romeu always gets slower after 70mins or so, hence why he gets so many bookings later in games where its easier to foul someone. Hojbjerg has a good engine but can be sloppy in possession, and as his energy levels drop it gives the opposition more time on the ball. Until Lemina came back we havent really had a sub option in this position, if needed.
    *
    4. Lack of possession
    Since RH has come in we have become a really efficient counter attack team, but one that is happy to concede possession and then hit teams. The problem with this is that towards the end of games when we have something to protect we know the opponent will have a lot of the ball and that due to the time in the game we won't press them as much or get as close as we did earlier in the game, which gives them a better chance to create. I think one of Hasenhuttl's key challenges will be to add a bit more to our game whilst in possession.
    *
    5. Getting a second clear goal
    This is a big issue, especially in games like yesterday where its fairly tight but we have clear chances. In the PL any team can score at any time so you aren't even safe at 2-0 but it certainly helps a lot, like in the Leicester away game. We need to improve here and be more clinical when on top, like under Koeman.
    *
    6. Attacking style/tactics
    As we have few mobile strikers, RH seems to prefer keeping pace up front towards the end of games. In many ways this makes sense, and we often get chances on the break, but the likes of Redmond or Sims are never really going to be holding the ball up, meaning it often just comes back once cleared. I recall Pelle being outstanding at this late in games, and we don't have anyone who fulfils a similar role. In every squad there is room for a more physical forward IMO.
    *
    7. Pressure
    For the last two seasons we have been in a poor league position where dropped points have a tangible outcome and some games are absolutely vital. This must play on the minds of players and certainly makes for a tense atmosphere, especially at home, towards the end of games.
    *
    Most of these pieces can be improved upon I think, and certainly its a part of Saints' game that has to be improved as it has directly contributed to our league position, and whilst RH has worked miracles, it is still there as it was under previous Managers.
    Nice piece..... One you may have left off is a very strong tendency to stand off and sit deep as the game wears on particularly when narrowly winning.
    This also has happened too often for long periods after taking the lead in games earlier in games.
    Really Ralph must insist that players play to tactical instruction and not how they feel comfortable when ahead.
    Certainly with three at the back we can quickly get over run in midfield so the weakness in the centre back position is costing some midfield control and over taxing our midfield who as you say noticeably tire later in games.

  13. #13

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    Naw Horllicks, we just bottle it at the end when we are winning/drawing - defend too deep and invite pressure when the opposition has nothing to lose (and more often than not opp throw on extra attackers, and we do the opposite). We should just stick to our normal game plan, which got us in the winning position in the first place. Sure players tire, but that applies to both sides. We need more balls (confidence if you like) to see out a game. Inflict more pain rather than retreat. Interestingly, more often than not if we are losing in the same period, we seem to up our game. So surely, it is not a fitness issue, rather a mental block?

    Watford was a perfect example, we are ahead inside 10 secs (no one expected that) and instead of pressing home our advantage and going for the jugular we slowly let them back in - yes we played well and should/could have got more (Longie should have got a second for sure), but it was somewhat tame. Eventually with 15 to 20 mins left it was almost a psychological conditioning that we were weakening, and so it proved. Players need to toughen up - physically RH seems to have managed, mentally - not so sure

  14. #14

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    Our strikers are not good enough to take the pressure off the defence towards the end of the game.
    When good teams are winning the chances of them scoring again is more likely as the opposition look to level up.
    In the last few seasons we’ve had the likes of Austin, Sims, Carrillo, Long and Gallagher coming off the bench and they just don’t cut it.

  15. #15

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    Weak mentality and average players.

  16. #16

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    It's not really a new thing it's been going on since the second half of the Puel season.

    I would venture that going from defence containing peak Fonte and the likes of VVD or Toby A, Bertrand (at his best) and Clyne protected in front by Victor and/or Morgan a few years back.
    To the likes of Hoedt, Stephens, Vest and Yoshida ( who I'm a big fan of but he was the back up and now he is the first choice) plus a less enthusiastic Bertrand and young right back protected by the players like Hoj, Lemina and JWP in midfield is just not as good.

    Upfront we've never really replaced Lambert/ Pelle either so we are terrible at holding the ball up top to give us breathing space. The usual panicky long punts out of defence that often characterise our late game attempts at holding a lead just come straight back at us most of the time putting us under constant pressure.

    I'd also point out our passing is pretty poor we give the ball away needlessly a lot. I know possession football is hated by most fans but late in a game defending a lead it would be good if we had midfielders capable of just playing keep ball to take the sting out of the game and relieve pressure on the back line.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  17. #17

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    It is self perpetuating. The more it happens, the more it is going to happen. The rot started with low levels of fitness under Puel and MoPe and once established is difficult to shrug off.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    because we are not a particularly good premier league side
    I agree good PL league sides often score in the last few minutes we don't do we

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    because we are not a particularly good premier league side
    I'm afraid that this is a lazy response and doesn't get to the crux of the matter !
    If we are good enough for large parts of games then the question is only "why can't we see the job through" ?
    I agree with the posters who have said that it is psychological (ie. lack of confidence, having been prone to it for so long now) !
    No doubt that Ralph will be aware of this and it will be one of his top priorities during the summer break !

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurosaint View Post
    I'm afraid that this is a lazy response and doesn't get to the crux of the matter !
    If we are good enough for large parts of games then the question is only "why can't we see the job through" ?
    I agree with the posters who have said that it is psychological (ie. lack of confidence, having been prone to it for so long now) !
    No doubt that Ralph will be aware of this and it will be one of his top priorities during the summer break !
    it is a fair response because it is true.
    Why do you think we all agree a fair bit of change is required to the team/squad?

    Because the team/squad is not a particularly good. Hence why we only have 37 points, sit 16th and still not mathematically safe.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    it is a fair response because it is true.
    Again not its not, the squad has proven under Ralph that they are easily as good as other 7-10th place teams. I mean we just beat Wolves and comfortably outplayed Watford at their own ground and should have won, those are pretty much the two best teams outside the top 6, so to claim we are not a good team is just false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajjuk View Post
    Again not its not, the squad has proven under Ralph that they are easily as good as other 7-10th place teams. I mean we just beat Wolves and comfortably outplayed Watford at their own ground and should have won, those are pretty much the two best teams outside the top 6, so to claim we are not a good team is just false.
    we also lost to cardiff twice under ralph, along with a couple of other terrible results....which proves we are not a particularly good side.
    We have 1 right back, a truly awful CB, Long is now our main man up front, severe lack of pace and yes, let in so many late goals and dropped so many points.

    I very much doubt Ralph would get this team top 7 over a whole season hence why we will need some big changes in the summer.
    if we are a good side, the changes would be very minimal as we are a club that likes to penny pinch.

    It is not negative to believe ralph has been superb since coming in, got more out of a squad that would have been easily relegated under hughes and accept on the whole, this current squad/team is not a particularly good one. Good enough to survive but not much more
    Last edited by Batman; 25-04-2019 at 07:59 AM.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    we also lost to cardiff twice under ralph, along with a couple of other terrible results....which proves we are not a particularly good side.
    We have 1 right back, an truly awful CB, Long is now our main man up front, severe lack of pace and yes, let in so many late goals and dropped so many points.

    I very much doubt Ralph would get this team top 7 over a whole season hence why we will need some big changes in the summer.
    if we are a good side, the changes would be very minimal as we are a club that likes to penny pinch.

    It is not negative to believe ralph has been superb since coming in, got more out of a squad that would have been easily relegated under hughes and accept on the whole, this current squad/team is not a particularly good one. Good enough to survive but not much more

    The first game against Cardiff is irrelevant, he'd barely been there and the 2nd one they parked the bus for 90 minutes showing zero ambition and fluked a set piece, that pretty much happens to every club, Pulis literally made a career of parking the bus and fluking wins from set pieces, but his horrible clubs got relegated as will Cardiff. I mean City got beaten 3-2 at home by Palace, who are not very good, they are still probably one of the greatest teams in league history.

    Simple fact is under Ralph we have performed as a top 10 side, and that is with one of our best midfielders injured for most of the time, our best left back injured for a good chunk as well and at times no fit strikers.

    It's hardly a fluke, we have performed like that for half a season pretty much, we have had some ups and downs, so I can't really see how over a whole season we wouldn't perform similarly or not even better if key players like Bertrand and Lemina are fit.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajjuk View Post
    The first game against Cardiff is irrelevant, he'd barely been there and the 2nd one they parked the bus for 90 minutes showing zero ambition and fluked a set piece, that pretty much happens to every club, Pulis literally made a career of parking the bus and fluking wins from set pieces, but his horrible clubs got relegated as will Cardiff. I mean City got beaten 3-2 at home by Palace, who are not very good, they are still probably one of the greatest teams in league history.

    Simple fact is under Ralph we have performed as a top 10 side, and that is with one of our best midfielders injured for most of the time, our best left back injured for a good chunk as well and at times no fit strikers.

    It's hardly a fluke, we have performed like that for half a season pretty much, we have had some ups and downs, so I can't really see how over a whole season we wouldn't perform similarly or not even better if key players like Bertrand and Lemina are fit.
    its like saying, with Top Heaton in goal, Burnley are (or around) a top 6 side.
    and under Ole Soljskear, United are as good as Spurs.

    neither are true but the 'stats' will tell you it is.

    I do not think we will agree on this and the summer will back up the point that this squad/team requires serious changes to make us a top 10 side...if we are already, why bother?

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    It's not really a new thing it's been going on since the second half of the Puel season.

    I would venture that going from defence containing peak Fonte and the likes of VVD or Toby A, Bertrand (at his best) and Clyne protected in front by Victor and/or Morgan a few years back.
    To the likes of Hoedt, Stephens, Vest and Yoshida ( who I'm a big fan of but he was the back up and now he is the first choice) plus a less enthusiastic Bertrand and young right back protected by the players like Hoj, Lemina and JWP in midfield is just not as good.

    Upfront we've never really replaced Lambert/ Pelle either so we are terrible at holding the ball up top to give us breathing space. The usual panicky long punts out of defence that often characterise our late game attempts at holding a lead just come straight back at us most of the time putting us under constant pressure.

    I'd also point out our passing is pretty poor we give the ball away needlessly a lot. I know possession football is hated by most fans but late in a game defending a lead it would be good if we had midfielders capable of just playing keep ball to take the sting out of the game and relieve pressure on the back line.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
    I agree and we have been fighting off relegation for over two years now. We get the weeby jeebies. I bet if we had 46 points (mid table safety) instead of 36 points we would have played with confidence and swagger after going up at Watford and beaten them. Watford could probably sense our brittle mind state and knew that if they pushed us hard there was a good chance we would crack. I'm pretty sure the opposition manager briefs the players...push on them in the last 10 minutes they are fragile and have a propensity to crack.

  26. #26

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    I think we ultimately run out of legs and mental errors start to creep in. Thatís especially likely when youíre happy to let the opposition have plenty of the ball (as we are) and you have a young squad (as we do). Our intensity levels partly compensate for a lack of quality but they are simply not sustainable over 90mins. We also donít have enough attacking or counterattacking quality off the bench that can come on and keep defenses honest rather than encourage teams to squeeze up and maintain a higher and higher line.

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    I think we actually have one of the weakest squads in the PL, so it's not too surprising. There are very few good players in our team now that players we know are only average, JWP, Redmond, Yoshida, Bednarek, Hojbjerg, Romeu are now the ones who stand out as better. RH is a decent manager who is able to give them a plan and get them performing closer to their potential, but over 90 minutes, a better team is going to eventually get enough opportunities that they might score, especially as the game wears on and they get used to how we are playing.

  28. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    its like saying, with Top Heaton in goal, Burnley are (or around) a top 6 side.
    and under Ole Soljskear, United are as good as Spurs.

    neither are true but the 'stats' will tell you it is.

    I do not think we will agree on this and the summer will back up the point that this squad/team requires serious changes to make us a top 10 side...if we are already, why bother?
    Under Hasenhuttl, our performances put us in the 7th to 10th zone, ergo its simply untrue to say we need "serious changes to make us a top 10 side".

    Of course, that doesn't mean we should stand still and not seek to improve the squad (to answer your "why bother?" question). Yes, we've got a squad that is putting in performances that makes us a top 10 side, but we don't make it easy for ourselves. Improving the squad will obviously (a) help us keep pace with the other teams in our 'best of the rest' peer group and (b) make it easier to maintain our top 10 status.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by trousers View Post
    Under Hasenhuttl, our performances put us in the 7th to 10th zone, ergo its simply untrue to say we need "serious changes to make us a top 10 side".

    Of course, that doesn't mean we should stand still and not seek to improve the squad (to answer your "why bother?" question). Yes, we've got a squad that is putting in performances that makes us a top 10 side, but we don't make it easy for ourselves. Improving the squad will obviously (a) help us keep pace with the other teams in our 'best of the rest' peer group and (b) make it easier to maintain our top 10 status.
    I think it puts us 11th (if you include the Cardiff game) and we're as close to 15th as we are to 8th. It's also the case that our form under RH has slightly dipped over time (if you compare his first 10 games with the last 10 games).

    The bigger point is that RH has stabilised us and we're no longer in that group of clubs that finds itself cut from the rest early on and dragged into a dogfight. This should continue next season; but beyond that I wouldn't read too much into things and get carried away with our prospects just yet.
    Last edited by shurlock; 25-04-2019 at 10:17 AM.

  30. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    I think it puts us 11th (if you include the Cardiff game) and we're as close to 15th as we are to 8th. It's also the case that our form under RH has slightly dipped over time (if you compare his first 10 games with the last 10 games).

    The bigger point is that RH has stabilised us and we're no longer in that group of clubs that finds itself cut from the rest early on and dragged into a dogfight. This should continue next season; but beyond that I wouldn't read too much into things and get carried away with our prospects just yet.
    Fair points (I tend not to include the Cardiff game as RH wouldn't have had any significant impact on the outcome of that IMO)

    I guess all I'm trying to do is counter Batman's ascertain that we need "serious changes to make us a top 10 side". That's clearly untrue; but, of course, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aiming to make significant improvements to the squad in certain areas over the summer. We should be doing that regardless.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    its like saying, with Top Heaton in goal, Burnley are (or around) a top 6 side.
    and under Ole Soljskear, United are as good as Spurs.

    neither are true but the 'stats' will tell you it is.

    I do not think we will agree on this and the summer will back up the point that this squad/team requires serious changes to make us a top 10 side...if we are already, why bother?
    Burnley that last year finished 7th with pretty much the same squad? Burnley only really struggled because the Europa league games screwed them over at the start. They have shown very clearly that despite them being a horrible football side they are clearly an effective one and will end up well clear of relegation. I mean they have just 1 point less than Bournemouth now and only 3 less than a West Ham team that had over £100 million spent on it.

    Who'd have also thought that having a key player out for half a season might impact a team.

    As Trousers said, the squad have proven in performances, point earned and the teams they have beaten that they are good enough for top 10 in the league this year, if we had Ralph all year we would be top 10 right now, I am certain of that, Hughes was and is just a terrible manager who completely mismanaged this team.

    SO to claim we need serious investment to achieve levels we are already performing at is just flat out wrong.

    Doesn't then mean that we shouldn't try to improve the squad, add depth and try to push as high as we can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    because we are not a particularly good premier league side
    Close the thread.

  33. #33

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    I Think some posters are arguing about the same thing.

    We are not a very good side but Hasenhuttl has got a poorside playing at the very top of their game. However we are still letting ingaols (late in some cases) and are still capable of putting in the odd poor performance(Cardiff / Palace at home for example).

    As for the original “why do we let in so many late goals” inmy opinion we have 4 centre half’s who either don’t read the game and not reactto danger quickly enough or just capable of making individual errors.

    As some posters point out in the summer transfer thread ,newplayers are required and some of the current squad need to be sold / loanedout.

  34. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    It is self perpetuating. The more it happens, the more it is going to happen. The rot started with low levels of fitness under Puel and MoPe and once established is difficult to shrug off.
    This. Under Koeman we hardly ever looked like conceding late goals, in fact the opposite. Fitness definitely declined under the other two, as did talent pool to be fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    we also lost to cardiff twice under ralph, along with a couple of other terrible results....which proves we are not a particularly good side.
    We have 1 right back, a truly awful CB, Long is now our main man up front, severe lack of pace and yes, let in so many late goals and dropped so many points.

    I very much doubt Ralph would get this team top 7 over a whole season hence why we will need some big changes in the summer.
    if we are a good side, the changes would be very minimal as we are a club that likes to penny pinch.

    It is not negative to believe ralph has been superb since coming in, got more out of a squad that would have been easily relegated under hughes and accept on the whole, this current squad/team is not a particularly good one. Good enough to survive but not much more
    So just to be clear, you can use one piece of logic to validate your point but that same logic can not be used to argue it?

    For example, we lost to Cardiff twice (once in Ralphís very first game in charge), lost to Newcastle, drew against Burnley (5th in the Pl on average points in 2019), drew against Palace and and lost to West Ham which ďproves we are not particularly goodĒ, but we cannot use the argument that beating Arsenal, Tottenham, Leicester, Everton, Wolves and outplaying Watford to prove that we are actually a good side? (I didnít even mention beating the relegation fodder).

    Nonsense.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Id be more interested to know what the stats are under RH as this is the only one really relevant based on new tactics / formations and squad used.

  37. #37

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    One positive from losing so many points from winning positions is that we are apparently better at getting into winning positions than the other bottom teams:

    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/prem...le/alle/plus/1

    That's got to be worth something!.... No?... Ok...

  38. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wild-saint View Post
    Id be more interested to know what the stats are under RH as this is the only one really relevant based on new tactics / formations and squad used.

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    and of course, United are better than Spurs


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    Quote Originally Posted by trousers View Post
    Apart from oddly leaving out the Cardiff game (why not leave his first few games as he would have similarly had a limited effect on them as well), I think the question -and the more interesting one- is how many points from winning positions/late goals have we thrown away or conceded under RH?

  41. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Apart from oddly leaving out the Cardiff game (why not leave his first few games as he would have similarly had a limited effect on them as well),
    I don't see it as "odd" to leave out the Cardiff game but not any others. Just a different opinion at the end of the day (I happen to believe a new manager can't have any direct/significant impact on a game after 2 days at a club whereas 10 days is enough to have a significant influence. All very subjective I agree... that's opinions for you )

    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    I think the question -and the more interesting one- is how many points from winning positions/late goals have we thrown away or conceded under RH?
    Agree

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Apart from oddly leaving out the Cardiff game (why not leave his first few games as he would have similarly had a limited effect on them as well), I think the question -and the more interesting one- is how many points from winning positions/late goals have we thrown away or conceded under RH?
    also, let's assume a late goal is a goal scored after 75 minutes.

    Cardiff City 1–0 Southampton
    Southampton 3–2 Arsenal (gained 2 pts) (we scored in 85th minute)
    Huddersfield Town 1–3 Southampton
    Southampton 1–2 West Ham United (lost 3 points)
    Southampton 1–3 Manchester City (lost 2 points)
    Chelsea 0–0 Southampton
    Leicester City 1–2 Southampton
    Southampton 2–1 Everton (conceded in 91st minute but made no difference)
    Southampton 1–1 Crystal Palace (gained 1 point) (JWP gets our equaliser in 77th minute)
    Burnley 1–1 Southampton (lost 2 points) (concede penalty in 94th minute)
    Southampton 1–2 Cardiff City (lost 2 points) (both equalise then lose in 90th minute injury time)
    Arsenal 2–0 Southampton
    Southampton 2–0 Fulham
    Manchester United 3–2 Southampton (lost 3 points- because we were winning at one point!) (Lukaku score in 88th minute)
    Southampton 2–1 Tottenham Hotspur (gained 3 points) (JWP and Valery score, 78th and 81st)
    Brighton & Hove Albion 0–1 Southampton
    Southampton 1–3 Liverpool (lost 3 points) (Pool score in 80th and 86th)
    Southampton 3–1 Wolverhampton Wanderers (gained 2 points)
    Newcastle United 3–1 Southampton
    Watford 1–1 Southampton (lost 2 points) (Gray in 90th minute)

    Please correct me if I have gone wrong somewhere! so we have gained 8 points from drawing/losing positions, but lost 17 points when having a winning or drawing position and losing.


    Also- Derby x2 (lost a 2 goal lead twice I think)
    Last edited by nta786; 25-04-2019 at 01:11 PM.

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    Ralph has just said himself, it would be very very hard to maintain the form he has seen over a whole season as it is.

    he must be wrong

  44. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    Ralph has just said himself, it would be very very hard to maintain the form he has seen over a whole season as it is.

    he must be wrong
    https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/non%20sequitur

    Who has said it wouldn't be hard to maintain our form under RH over a whole season? It would be bloody hard, hence why it makes sense to improve the squad...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    I think we ultimately run out of legs and mental errors start to creep in. Thatís especially likely when youíre happy to let the opposition have plenty of the ball (as we are) and you have a young squad (as we do). Our intensity levels partly compensate for a lack of quality but they are simply not sustainable over 90mins. We also donít have enough attacking or counterattacking quality off the bench that can come on and keep defenses honest rather than encourage teams to squeeze up and maintain a higher and higher line.
    This is the basic reason, fitness/stamina. Instilling this half way through the season is almost impossible and some players will never get to these levels. Needs a good preseason of hard work and some changes of personnel in order to play the fast pressing game Ralph wants and be fit enough for 95 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nta786 View Post
    also, let's assume a late goal is a goal scored after 75 minutes.

    Cardiff City 1–0 Southampton
    Southampton 3–2 Arsenal (gained 2 pts) (we scored in 85th minute)
    Huddersfield Town 1–3 Southampton
    Southampton 1–2 West Ham United (lost 3 points)
    Southampton 1–3 Manchester City (lost 2 points)
    Chelsea 0–0 Southampton
    Leicester City 1–2 Southampton
    Southampton 2–1 Everton (conceded in 91st minute but made no difference)
    Southampton 1–1 Crystal Palace (gained 1 point) (JWP gets our equaliser in 77th minute)
    Burnley 1–1 Southampton (lost 2 points) (concede penalty in 94th minute)
    Southampton 1–2 Cardiff City (lost 2 points) (both equalise then lose in 90th minute injury time)
    Arsenal 2–0 Southampton
    Southampton 2–0 Fulham
    Manchester United 3–2 Southampton (lost 3 points- because we were winning at one point!) (Lukaku score in 88th minute)
    Southampton 2–1 Tottenham Hotspur (gained 3 points) (JWP and Valery score, 78th and 81st)
    Brighton & Hove Albion 0–1 Southampton
    Southampton 1–3 Liverpool (lost 3 points) (Pool score in 80th and 86th)
    Southampton 3–1 Wolverhampton Wanderers (gained 2 points)
    Newcastle United 3–1 Southampton
    Watford 1–1 Southampton (lost 2 points) (Gray in 90th minute)

    Please correct me if I have gone wrong somewhere! so we have gained 8 points from drawing/losing positions, but lost 17 points when having a winning or drawing position and losing.


    Also- Derby x2 (lost a 2 goal lead twice I think)
    V. interesting thanks - can't remember how many total points we've lost from a winning position this season and whether those figures are net of the points we've gained but RH's record seems better than Hughes. Not sure how it compares with the rest of the league averaged out a season.

  47. #47

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    Ralph's game wears our players out after 65 mins after that we are rarely competitive and often with backs to the wall under siege. His style of play seemed to work well in the Bundesliga but maybe the PL is too fast and furious for it to work for 90 minutes. Every team is physically strong and fit so we get no advantage from that as over-exertion for 2/3rds of games leaves us vulnerable to others who pace themselves for the full 90.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusic View Post
    6. Attacking style/tactics
    As we have few mobile strikers, RH seems to prefer keeping pace up front towards the end of games. In many ways this makes sense, and we often get chances on the break, but the likes of Redmond or Sims are never really going to be holding the ball up, meaning it often just comes back once cleared. I recall Pelle being outstanding at this late in games, and we don't have anyone who fulfils a similar role. In every squad there is room for a more physical forward IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilchards View Post
    Our strikers are not good enough to take the pressure off the defence towards the end of the game.
    When good teams are winning the chances of them scoring again is more likely as the opposition look to level up.
    In the last few seasons weíve had the likes of Austin, Sims, Carrillo, Long and Gallagher coming off the bench and they just donít cut it.
    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    We also donít have enough attacking or counterattacking quality off the bench that can come on and keep defenses honest rather than encourage teams to squeeze up and maintain a higher and higher line.
    This, this and this. It's no coincidence that we have conceded many late goals since Pelle left and wasn't properly replaced.

    I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but bringing in a fit goal-scoring front man has to be the main priority this summer.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    because we are not a particularly good premier league side
    As much as you'd like it to be true, if that were the case we'd be out of the games before late goals.

    We're decent, just not quite decent enough yet. Mid table quality sides will concede goals like that. We're good at creating chances but not finishing enough, so games remain tight and the last minutes always nervy. That doesn't help the defence one bit.

    But we're good at getting into leads against sides of all qualities. Our defence has improved but it's not good enough to rely on clean sheets for 1-0 wins like it used to.

    However, we've improved our goalkeeper in Gunn, we've seen Bednarek improve, Valery come through, Vesterguard settle. We're only one decent leader in the back line from fixing this problem. Then we'll just need more clinical forwards.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Munster View Post
    This, this and this. It's no coincidence that we have conceded many late goals since Pelle left and wasn't properly replaced.

    I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet, but bringing in a fit goal-scoring front man has to be the main priority this summer.
    That's every club's priority. Who are they? Pelle wasn't goalscoring for large spells either. Ings is broken and not a great finisher. Austin is awful. Carrillo poor. At the moment our best striker is Shane Long.

    Looking around the league outside the top 6 sums it up. Everton spend a fortune on Tosun and he's ****e. Palace ditto with Benteke. Murray did alright for Brighton despite being limited, Rondon is a useful lump, but in terms of strong strikers who score a fair number I can't see any.

    I think we need another wide forward who can get 10 goals, and make us not rely on Redmond, who will hopefully improve as well.

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