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Virgil/Mane


spyinthesky

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mane have a big old strop midway through 15/16, when we were going through a bad patch? Sure I can remember Koeman having the hump with him (Norwich away?).

 

So not sure he deserves way more praise over the other players who've left us.

 

Anyway, fair play to them all for last night's performance. If they don't win a trophy this year then they will feel mighty hacked off!

 

Also...they'll still have won nothing since they left Saints ;):lol:

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Mane is probably worth four times what they paid.
He was worth more than we got for him at the time. Les Reed bent over and had his pants pulled down.

The transfer market went silly not long after and if we had held out we would have got £10-15m more for him.

 

If players like Bolasie, Sissoko, Benteke and Slimani were all going for around £30m then Mane was worth at least £40m in that market. But Les was desperate to sell as early as possible.

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It's not about what, it's about how.

 

I don't get "What" VVD did that's so wrong, he didn't want to play for us, his boss wouldn't let him leave, so he went behind his bosses back.

 

Im confident we've probably all done this in our employment, and when we didn't get our own ways we probably didn't work that hard.

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I don't get "What" VVD did that's so wrong, he didn't want to play for us, his boss wouldn't let him leave, so he went behind his bosses back.

 

Im confident we've probably all done this in our employment, and when we didn't get our own ways we probably didn't work that hard.

 

Ah but he did! There was an interview where he said he continued to give everything for Southampton! It was evident by his surly attitude and weight gain during that season... Not to mention him refusing to train

 

Mane signed a contract with us then refused to sign another one, thus forcing our hand. Would he have thrown his toys out if we'd refused to sell him to Liverpool? We'll never know. Vd signed a new contract for more money then demanded a move soon after. Compromise was needed on both sides, however as far as I can see it vd just dug his heels in until he got what he wanted.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mane have a big old strop midway through 15/16, when we were going through a bad patch? Sure I can remember Koeman having the hump with him (Norwich away?).

 

So not sure he deserves way more praise over the other players who've left us.

 

Anyway, fair play to them all for last night's performance. If they don't win a trophy this year then they will feel mighty hacked off!

 

Also...they'll still have won nothing since they left Saints ;):lol:

 

Wasn't Mané's problem about him being consistently late on parade for training and team meetings?

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I don't get "What" VVD did that's so wrong, he didn't want to play for us, his boss wouldn't let him leave, so he went behind his bosses back.

 

Im confident we've probably all done this in our employment, and when we didn't get our own ways we probably didn't work that hard.

 

Agreed. My issue in that mess was with the club. Trying to keep him was pointless posturing that achieved nothing bit disharmony and disruption.

 

Back to the thread, they both will have moved for nights like that as well as the dollars, and fair play to them for being part of one of the best comebacks football has ever seen.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mane have a big old strop midway through 15/16, when we were going through a bad patch? Sure I can remember Koeman having the hump with him (Norwich away?).

 

So not sure he deserves way more praise over the other players who've left us.

 

Anyway, fair play to them all for last night's performance. If they don't win a trophy this year then they will feel mighty hacked off!

 

Also...they'll still have won nothing since they left Saints ;):lol:

 

Wasn't there something about this around the time that we played Midtjylland away?

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I don't get "What" VVD did that's so wrong, he didn't want to play for us, his boss wouldn't let him leave, so he went behind his bosses back.

 

Im confident we've probably all done this in our employment, and when we didn't get our own ways we probably didn't work that hard.

 

You are kidding right?

 

VvD had met up with Klopp and was discussing having a team built around him before the club knew there was any interest at all, going behind the club's back and talking to another club a few months after signing a 6 year contract.

 

There's a reason Liverpool became the first team in history to actually publicly apologise for tapping up.

 

VvD going on strike and refusing to play as a result of that tapping up was just the icing on the cake, as well as creating merry hell in the dressing room. Everyone was worse as a result of his actions.

 

Arguably our slump the last three seasons can still be traced back to what that **** did.

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You are kidding right?

 

VvD had met up with Klopp and was discussing having a team built around him before the club knew there was any interest at all, going behind the club's back and talking to another club a few months after signing a 6 year contract.

 

There's a reason Liverpool became the first team in history to actually publicly apologise for tapping up.

 

VvD going on strike and refusing to play as a result of that tapping up was just the icing on the cake, as well as creating merry hell in the dressing room. Everyone was worse as a result of his actions.

 

Arguably our slump the last three seasons can still be traced back to what that **** did.

 

Not way is he kidding Jimmy, he is trolling and its not just on this thread

 

And you are spot on, he behaved like an a rse

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You are kidding right?

 

VvD had met up with Klopp and was discussing having a team built around him before the club knew there was any interest at all, going behind the club's back and talking to another club a few months after signing a 6 year contract.

 

There's a reason Liverpool became the first team in history to actually publicly apologise for tapping up.

 

VvD going on strike and refusing to play as a result of that tapping up was just the icing on the cake, as well as creating merry hell in the dressing room. Everyone was worse as a result of his actions.

 

Arguably our slump the last three seasons can still be traced back to what that **** did.

 

Are you kidding? You are blaming the last 3 years on VVD leaving and being tapped up?

 

The club knew their was interest, it just wasn't formal. Les Reed tried to act all Billy Big ******** and it worked to a certain degree because Liverpool lost all power when it came to the deal. He was indeed tapped up, hardly his fault.

 

If you were forced to play or work for a company, would you carry on?

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Not way is he kidding Jimmy, he is trolling and its not just on this thread

 

And you are spot on, he behaved like an a rse

 

 

Have a day off. Some people don't operate in the real world and what they would ACTUALLY do in his position. No way would any of us acted any differently.

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Have a day off. Some people don't operate in the real world and what they would ACTUALLY do in his position. No way would any of us acted any differently.

 

Indeed you should have a day off from your baiting all over the forum

 

I don't think you are an idiot but you sure do act like one... The dutch ***** agreed a deal to stay for 6 years and then played up like a t wat to get a move very shortly after

Most employed people don't agree to stay for six years they just agree a notice period so it is no the same HTH

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Are you kidding? You are blaming the last 3 years on VVD leaving and being tapped up?

 

The club knew their was interest, it just wasn't formal. Les Reed tried to act all Billy Big ******** and it worked to a certain degree because Liverpool lost all power when it came to the deal. He was indeed tapped up, hardly his fault.

 

If you were forced to play or work for a company, would you carry on?

 

If you want a real world work analogy, it was more like a builder agreeing to build a house for you, then going off to talk to other landowners to talk about building a house for them while he's just started on your foundations, and then refusing to do any more work until you release him from his contract.

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Eh, new contracts are as much about the club protecting resale value as it is a 'reward' to the player for doing well (leaving to one side the spurious notion that pay in return for work is ever a reward).

 

Our mistake was going down the 'not for sale at any price' route. That immediately broke the covenant between the club and players, which had quite obviously been based on the idea that if you do well here, it's a stepping stone to bigger things.

 

At a club our size with our business model, a player should never be 'not for sale'. Instead once there is concrete interest from bigger clubs, we should make it clear that they can leave, but only at their appropriate valuation. This would encourage want-away players (and fans) to put as much pressure on their suitors to get a deal done as on us to sell.

 

The whole refusal to negotiate for VVD once it became obvious he wanted to leave was idiotic grandstanding, and did us no good at all.

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Eh, new contracts are as much about the club protecting resale value as it is a 'reward' to the player for doing well (leaving to one side the spurious notion that pay in return for work is ever a reward).

 

Our mistake was going down the 'not for sale at any price' route. That immediately broke the covenant between the club and players, which had quite obviously been based on the idea that if you do well here, it's a stepping stone to bigger things.

 

At a club our size with our business model, a player should never be 'not for sale'. Instead once there is concrete interest from bigger clubs, we should make it clear that they can leave, but only at their appropriate valuation. This would encourage want-away players (and fans) to put as much pressure on their suitors to get a deal done as on us to sell.

 

The whole refusal to negotiate for VVD once it became obvious he wanted to leave was idiotic grandstanding, and did us no good at all.

 

I'm not so sure it's done no good at all. It's probably made players think twice before going to talk to other clubs behind our backs.

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You are kidding right?

 

VvD had met up with Klopp and was discussing having a team built around him before the club knew there was any interest at all, going behind the club's back and talking to another club a few months after signing a 6 year contract.

 

There's a reason Liverpool became the first team in history to actually publicly apologise for tapping up.

 

VvD going on strike and refusing to play as a result of that tapping up was just the icing on the cake, as well as creating merry hell in the dressing room. Everyone was worse as a result of his actions.

 

Arguably our slump the last three seasons can still be traced back to what that **** did.

 

Our slump the last 3 seasons traces back to the club downgrading massively when they allowed Koeman, Pelle, Wanyama and Mane to leave in one summer.

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If you want a real world work analogy, it was more like a builder agreeing to build a house for you, then going off to talk to other landowners to talk about building a house for them while he's just started on your foundations, and then refusing to do any more work until you release him from his contract.

 

No it's not.

 

It's like a builder agreeing to build a house for you, but then someone offers them significantly more money for building the exact same house but with more chance of reward for doing a good job. I know what 100% of builders would do in this case.

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Indeed you should have a day off from your baiting all over the forum

 

I don't think you are an idiot but you sure do act like one... The dutch ***** agreed a deal to stay for 6 years and then played up like a t wat to get a move very shortly after

Most employed people don't agree to stay for six years they just agree a notice period so it is no the same HTH

 

You seem to class "differing opinion" as "Trolling"............... instantly. You need a month off, somewhere sunny.

 

Most normal people don't get the chance to quadruple their income by moving companies. HTH

 

I'd love to see what you would've done in the same situation. You'd be signing for Liverpool quicker than you can say "Moron"

Edited by Cabbage_Face
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I'm not so sure it's done no good at all. It's probably made players think twice before going to talk to other clubs behind our backs.

 

It probably also gives young players who are weighing up whether to come to us something to put in the negatives column.

 

So many players share agents, and so many agents are on retainers with clubs that the idea that you can maintain a chinese wall around players to prevent them finding out that other clubs want them is simply preposterous. We should manage the club in light of the reality we find ourselves in, not some fantasy.

 

Liverpool got VVD, are fighting for the league and are in the CL final for the second year in a row. All we got in return for our stubbornness was a season of uncertainty over our CB positions and some ropey subsequent recruitment.

 

Who knows, perhaps if we hadn't been such drama queens over VVD we might have been able to attract someone slightly better than Vestergaard?

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No it's not.

 

It's like a builder agreeing to build a house for you, but then someone offers them significantly more money for building the exact same house but with more chance of reward for doing a good job. I know what 100% of builders would do in this case.

 

So to follow your logic here...

 

All footballers would act like VvD did in VvD's situation.

Because all footballers would act like VvD did, he wasn't wrong to do so.

Therefore it's unreasonable to be annoyed with VvD because he was right to act the way he did.

 

Clearly, not all footballers would act the way VvD did. Le Tissier is the obvious example, but Mané maybe works better, he put the effort in despite wanting to leave and arguably had his best season the season he left. Plenty of footballers have moves to other clubs fall through without going on strike.

 

We've already established that not all footballers would act the way VvD did anyway, but even so, what VvD did wasn't right. He signed that contract knowing we wanted to build the team around him for years to come. He completely torpedoed that and any player we were thinking of signing that summer was joining a club where the best player was making a huge mess trying to leave. He massively damaged the club he was supposed to be representing and fighting for.

 

As for being annoyed with VvD, we're fans of the club. We're annoyed when a player makes a genuine mistake during a match that hurts the club. VvD went out of his way to take actions that actively damaged the club and you actually expect people to be ok with that? That's quite funny.

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I'm not so sure it's done no good at all. It's probably made players think twice before going to talk to other clubs behind our backs.

It's more the brazen nature of it all, the fact that Liverpool felt so sure of themselves that they leaked the Blackpool meet-up to the papers thinking it would actually accelerate the process.

 

We were absolutely right to dig in, and we should have taken it further. Liverpool were already under a transfer/registration ban for youth players because they'd been found guilty of tapping up some 14-year-old at Stoke and offering inducements to his parents. If they'd actually been taken to a disciplinary hearing I think it's pretty likely they'd have got a similar punishment for senior players too, the PL and/or FA would have had to do something over such a publicly-conducted situation.

 

Players talk to other clubs all the time, it's a fact. I'm absolutely certain we do it as well, but the vast majority of the time the conversations are had between the club and the player's agent, who will then report back to the player - that maintains a degree of plausible deniability.

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It probably also gives young players who are weighing up whether to come to us something to put in the negatives column.

 

So many players share agents, and so many agents are on retainers with clubs that the idea that you can maintain a chinese wall around players to prevent them finding out that other clubs want them is simply preposterous. We should manage the club in light of the reality we find ourselves in, not some fantasy.

 

Liverpool got VVD, are fighting for the league and are in the CL final for the second year in a row. All we got in return for our stubbornness was a season of uncertainty over our CB positions and some ropey subsequent recruitment.

 

Who knows, perhaps if we hadn't been such drama queens over VVD we might have been able to attract someone slightly better than Vestergaard?

 

We had the best defender in the World playing for us. He had five years left on his contract. We knew that any amount of money wouldn't be enough to replace that.

 

No one expected VvD to be as much of a **** as he was, considering it looked like he genuinely liked it here the previous two seasons. If he'd been like most footballers, he'd probably have played for another two seasons and then left.

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You seem to class "differing opinion" as "Trolling"............... instantly. You need a month off, somewhere sunny.

 

Most normal people don't get the chance to quadruple their income by moving companies. HTH

 

I'd love to see what you would've done in the same situation. You'd be signing for Liverpool quicker than you can say "Moron"

 

Its nothing to do with differing opinion Ekon, the evidence of your trolling is all over the forum.

 

You are perfectly aware that it is totally different but are just acting true to form...

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No it's not.

 

It's like a builder agreeing to build a house for you, but then someone offers them significantly more money for building the exact same house but with more chance of reward for doing a good job. I know what 100% of builders would do in this case.

 

They'd get sued for all they were worth. The builder signed a contract and then walked away from it. Straightforward breach of contract.

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We had the best defender in the World playing for us. He had five years left on his contract. We knew that any amount of money wouldn't be enough to replace that.

 

No one expected VvD to be as much of a **** as he was, considering it looked like he genuinely liked it here the previous two seasons. If he'd been like most footballers, he'd probably have played for another two seasons and then left.

 

You're kidding yourself. He'll be 28 at the end of this season, which would be the end of the 2 years you're talking about. No way was he going to stay and play mid-table football for the peak years of his 20s. As you say, he was probably the best defender in the world - it's just absurd to think we could have kept him. And besides, that's not really what contracts are for these days (in addition to protecting the transfer value of the player, the higher the transfer fee, the lower the signing bonus, so the extra wages are also a compensation for that aspect of any future transaction).

 

If anyone good comes to Saints and shows their potential consistently, bigger clubs will want them and they'll probably want to leave after two season. It's exactly what happened with Mane, and it really should've been what happened with VVD. Take as much money as possible and move on. Le Tiss was an unusual figure even back then, and such behaviour has only become less likely with the money and celebrity on offer.

 

Of course, if Gao finds a few billion down the back of his sofa and wants to bankroll us that way, then fine, our behaviour can change. But if the club has to be run as a business in order to survive, then run it like a business and leave the vanity and ego out of it.

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VVD tried to rewrite history when he said in an interview that he gave his all for Saints after his transfer request. The way Liverpool went about it was pretty disgraceful and if Saints did it I wouldnt be proud. I just believe their arrogance that they just had to call Reed and a dealwould happen as in the multi times in the past made them think they were doingno wrong.

I had hoped he would win nothing but I suspect now he will win a CLwinners medal and can justify his own actions.

It is sadthat it worked for him, wheras Mane I have no gripe with.

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You're kidding yourself. He'll be 28 at the end of this season, which would be the end of the 2 years you're talking about. No way was he going to stay and play mid-table football for the peak years of his 20s. As you say, he was probably the best defender in the world - it's just absurd to think we could have kept him. And besides, that's not really what contracts are for these days (in addition to protecting the transfer value of the player, the higher the transfer fee, the lower the signing bonus, so the extra wages are also a compensation for that aspect of any future transaction).

 

If anyone good comes to Saints and shows their potential consistently, bigger clubs will want them and they'll probably want to leave after two season. It's exactly what happened with Mane, and it really should've been what happened with VVD. Take as much money as possible and move on. Le Tiss was an unusual figure even back then, and such behaviour has only become less likely with the money and celebrity on offer.

 

Of course, if Gao finds a few billion down the back of his sofa and wants to bankroll us that way, then fine, our behaviour can change. But if the club has to be run as a business in order to survive, then run it like a business and leave the vanity and ego out of it.

 

He had FIVE years left on his contract. At the time it was absurd to think he'd leave.

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He had FIVE years left on his contract. At the time it was absurd to think he'd leave.
I dont think so, I recall him doing an interview just after he signed the 5 year deal and a slip of the tongue him saying about 2 years. He was always going to go, it is just the way he went, especially after we had supported him through injury. The big contract was to screw more for him when we sold.
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Er... Really?

 

Here I'm referring to the 2014/15 season, we were still 3rd after the 24th round of matches and eventually finished 7th, 2 points behind Liverpool in 6th. We seemed to be going somewhere, Koeman was doing a pretty good job and we would have been a attractive proposition for Virgil. Then in Virgil's first season we signed some good'ish players and made 6th. Then suddenly it all fell apart, Koeman left for Everton, good players were sold and the club was reportedly up for sale, with the consequences we've seen of late.

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Maybe i am only looking at it through red and white colored glasses, but can any other club claim the number of former players that have started/played in the CL Championship the last two years.

 

2018 Liverpool v. Real Madrid

 

Bale - Started - scored 2 goals

Mane - Started - score 1 goal

VVD - Started

Lovren - Started

Lallana - 2nd half substitute

 

2019 Liverpool v. Ajax / Spurs - potentially

 

Mane, VVD, Lovren (maybe)

 

Tadic

 

Wanyama

Alderweireld (loan, I know)

Gazzaniga (likely on bench)

Pochettino (Manager)

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Maybe i am only looking at it through red and white colored glasses, but can any other club claim the number of former players that have started/played in the CL Championship the last two years.

 

2018 Liverpool v. Real Madrid

 

Bale - Started - scored 2 goals

Mane - Started - score 1 goal

VVD - Started

Lovren - Started

Lallana - 2nd half substitute

 

2019 Liverpool v. Ajax / Spurs - potentially

 

Mane, VVD, Lovren (maybe)

 

Tadic

 

Wanyama

Alderweireld (loan, I know)

Gazzaniga (likely on bench)

Pochettino (Manager)

 

Oxlade-Chamberlain and Lallana also possible this season.

Clyne would be another but isn't in named in the squad so can't appear even if his loan is finished by then.

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So to follow your logic here...

 

All footballers would act like VvD did in VvD's situation.

Because all footballers would act like VvD did, he wasn't wrong to do so.

Therefore it's unreasonable to be annoyed with VvD because he was right to act the way he did.

 

Clearly, not all footballers would act the way VvD did. Le Tissier is the obvious example, but Mané maybe works better, he put the effort in despite wanting to leave and arguably had his best season the season he left. Plenty of footballers have moves to other clubs fall through without going on strike.

 

We've already established that not all footballers would act the way VvD did anyway, but even so, what VvD did wasn't right. He signed that contract knowing we wanted to build the team around him for years to come. He completely torpedoed that and any player we were thinking of signing that summer was joining a club where the best player was making a huge mess trying to leave. He massively damaged the club he was supposed to be representing and fighting for.

 

As for being annoyed with VvD, we're fans of the club. We're annoyed when a player makes a genuine mistake during a match that hurts the club. VvD went out of his way to take actions that actively damaged the club and you actually expect people to be ok with that? That's quite funny.

 

It’s funny how Le Tiss always gets dragged into this, someone who nearly left the club. I’m not saying everyone should act like this, I’m saying that, put in the situation he was put in, we would act like this. Stop being over dramatic.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Its nothing to do with differing opinion Ekon, the evidence of your trolling is all over the forum.

 

You are perfectly aware that it is totally different but are just acting true to form...

 

You’ve lost it. When you’re at work and your manager says to do the opposite to what you want, do you call him a troll?

 

 

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They'd get sued for all they were worth. The builder signed a contract and then walked away from it. Straightforward breach of contract.

 

So VVD didn’t breach his contract then. Simple.

 

Don’t let being butthurt cloud what is fact and what everyone would do in his situation.

 

 

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So VVD didn’t breach his contract then. Simple.

 

Don’t let being butthurt cloud what is fact and what everyone would do in his situation.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Actually, he did. He refused to play for a while. We fined him for it.

 

Saying everyone would do what he did is demonstrably not true, no matter how many times you bleat it.

Edited by Jimmy_D
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