Theresa May and the death of the Tory Party

Pertaining to British interests, rather than EU interests. It should always be 100% non EU representatives.

 

That is what independence/sovereignty looks like.

No pal- it’s an arrangement that impinges on both sides interests and ‘sovereignty’ so a balanced panel with an impartial member is the fairest solution. You’re in for a rude awakening about the realities of sovereignty and independence when the UK finally gets around to doing it’s own trade deals.

Isn't the WA for a fixed term, with the option for one mutually agreed extension ?

The backstop can only disappear on agreement by the afore mentioned joint commission.

You really are a bit of a fruit loop on this little plot. If you really were a Party member, then you would realise that there is a firm procedure on how leadership elections are run. You little unicorn fantasy doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. Whether they formed an alliance or not, they still didn't have a majority, even together. And for some reason, you assume that Boris just disappears from the final vote, despite having led the campaign vote throughout.

What are you on about - why do they need a majority? They just need to be in the last 2, to take it through to the Membership vote. If between the 4 candidate vote, and the 3 candidate vote, one candidate drops out (or forms an alliance with the other where he can no longer be voted for), then the 3 candidate vote won't take place and it would go straight to the membership vote. I'm really not sure how I can try to get you to understand this?

And yes, Hunt does have my vote.

I'll indulge you regarding your lack of comprehension of the difference between a FTA and the Withdrawal Agreement. The Free Trade Agreement is what the name suggests. An agreement to trade freely together, without tariffs. The Withdrawal Agreement is a proposed agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union on how to implement Brexit. It covers such matters as money, citizens rights, border arrangements and dispute resolution.

 

Does this now penetrate?

So, and as I asked originally in post 554, what is the difference between a FTA and the WA trade deal we'll have in place during the transition period. I'm talking just the trade part - so the tariffs etc.

So, and as I asked originally in post 554, what is the difference between a FTA and the WA trade deal we'll have in place during the transition period. I'm talking just the trade part - so the tariffs etc.

With the WA the EU gets a say with an FTA it doesn't.

What the government has the power to do without the purview of the EU/Uk joint comission.

 

With the WA the EU gets a say with an FTA it doesn't.

Don’t you worry pal, the EU will have plenty of say when it comes to negotiating a FTA which given its size will be stacked in its favour.

Don’t you worry pal, the EU will have plenty of say when it comes to negotiating a FTA which given its size will be stacked in its favour.

Yeah, we'll just have to pay a lot of money for Free Trade access, that's all. But we all knew that. I would probably say we will pay less during the transition period for our free trade than in future.

What the government has the power to do without the purview of the EU/Uk joint comission.

 

With the WA the EU gets a say with an FTA it doesn't.

What's the difference between the Tariffs with an FTA and the trade terms under the WA?

What are you on about - why do they need a majority? They just need to be in the last 2, to take it through to the Membership vote. If between the 4 candidate vote, and the 3 candidate vote, one candidate drops out (or forms an alliance with the other where he can no longer be voted for), then the 3 candidate vote won't take place and it would go straight to the membership vote. I'm really not sure how I can try to get you to understand this?

 

And yes, Hunt does have my vote.

I advise you to go and lie down somewhere quiet until your thought processes have cleared. As a Conservative member, I would have expected you to have read the literature you will have been sent informing you how the leadership ballot procedure is run. Just for a laugh, why not go on Conservative Home and post the opinion that it is a pity that Gove and Hunt didn't form an alliance so that the final ballot would have been unnecessary. You'd be shot down in flames and mocked mercilessly for your total lack of knowledge or comprehension of how the whole thing worked.

Of course, there is nothing to stop Hunt forming an alliance with Gove now, during the hustings before the membership, but Hunt would probably fear Gove stabbing him in the back somewhere along the line. Equally, Boris might indicate during the hustings what positions in the cabinet could be available to his allies.

I advise you to go and lie down somewhere quiet until your thought processes have cleared. As a Conservative member, I would have expected you to have read the literature you will have been sent informing you how the leadership ballot procedure is run. Just for a laugh, why not go on Conservative Home and post the opinion that it is a pity that Gove and Hunt didn't form an alliance so that the final ballot would have been unnecessary. You'd be shot down in flames and mocked mercilessly for your total lack of knowledge or comprehension of how the whole thing worked.

 

Of course, there is nothing to stop Hunt forming an alliance with Gove now, during the hustings before the membership, but Hunt would probably fear Gove stabbing him in the back somewhere along the line. Equally, Boris might indicate during the hustings what positions in the cabinet could be available to his allies.

There was nothing to stop them forming an alliance yesterday, or the day before, or the day before that, or at any time during the last two weeks. You can form an alliance at any part of the process. Do you agree with that?

I have actually put a process flow together for you if that will help you understand as either you're willfully misinterpreting what is being said, or it's your senility playing up again.

Im sorry. Hunt can't even remember his wife's nationality.

That's just weird.

Im sorry. Hunt can't even remember his wife's nationality.

 

That's just weird.

Really, we're going to go down this road with the weird gaffe's that Boris has made in his life?

Not sure anyone is saying that Hunt is any good BTW - this members vote is like saying "I'd rather have Gonorrhea than the clap".

If Gove ran on a joint ticket with Hunt he would lose more votes from the right side of the party, than he would gain from the centre or left of the party. He would have all the anti Boris/Remain votes anyway, so how is having Hunt going to persuade Boris leaning voters to switch.

If Jeff thinks there’s No deal Brexit/Boris people (the vast majority of members if polling is to be believed) will say “I was going to vote for Boris, but now Goves joined up with Hunt and reached out to the Remain wing, I’m switching” he’s deluded.

It really is simple, I fail to see what you don’t understand about that, and genuinely hope you’re on a wind up.

If the Rudd’s, Gauke’s, Hammond’s of the world wanted to stop Boris they should of rowed in behind Gove, not Hunt. Gove was the only man capable of beating Boris. My mind is made up now, it’s Boris. Every single Brexiter member will follow suit. I was prepared to give Gove a fair hearing, but there’s no chance I’ll risk another ****ing remainer dogs breakfast of negotiating.

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If Gove ran on a joint ticket with Hunt he would lose more votes from the right side of the party, than he would gain from the centre or left of the party. He would have all the anti Boris/Remain votes anyway, so how is having Hunt going to persuade Boris leaning voters to switch.

 

If Jeff thinks there’s No deal Brexit/Boris people (the vast majority of members if polling is to be believed) will say “I was going to vote for Boris, but now Goves joined up with Hunt and reached out to the Remain wing, I’m switching” he’s deluded.

 

It really is simple, I fail to see what you don’t understand about that, and genuinely hope you’re on a wind up.

 

If the Rudd’s, Gauke’s, Hammond’s of the world wanted to stop Boris they should of rowed in behind Gove, not Hunt. Gove was the only man capable of beating Boris. My mind is made up now, it’s Boris. Every single Brexiter member will follow suit. I was prepared to give Gove a fair hearing, but there’s no chance I’ll risk another ****ing remainer dogs breakfast of negotiating.

 

 

 

 

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But Gove wasn't going to be in the last two, so your hypothesis doesn't work. Hunt was always going to be in the final 2, and Gove can get some of the leave votes back to Hunt.

The sentence is "I was going to vote for Boris, but now Hunt has joined up with Gove and reached out to the leave wing, I'm switching".

Big difference between the two.

Either way, I have never said it will be anything but Boris winning this - and when he attempts to take us out on no deal, it will be Corbyn as PM.

There was nothing to stop them forming an alliance yesterday, or the day before, or the day before that, or at any time during the last two weeks. You can form an alliance at any part of the process. Do you agree with that?

 

I have actually put a process flow together for you if that will help you understand as either you're willfully misinterpreting what is being said, or it's your senility playing up again.

 

You totally fail to understand the simple rules of the leadership election campaign and then have the audacity to accuse me of senility? The counter accusation, since you're into hurling insults, is that you must be a bit simple to not understand the procedure, and then you only compound that impression by thinking that by producing a flow chart that somehow validates your assertions. Where the process reduces the candidature by one or more persons at each stage, an alliance between two of them does not equate to one joint candidate. They remain as two candidates, each of whom could be eliminated.

Keep it up. You're providing great entertainment value with your ideas on how the process ought to work ideally in your very own little Utopia.

They remain as two candidates, each of whom could be eliminated.

If they run on the same ticket, one would have pulled out - that's the point.

They're not both running for PM still - they don't need to be eliminated, as they'd have already pulled out of the race.

You totally fail to understand the simple rules of the leadership election campaign and then have the audacity to accuse me of senility? The counter accusation, since you're into hurling insults, is that you must be a bit simple to not understand the procedure, and then you only compound that impression by thinking that by producing a flow chart that somehow validates your assertions. Where the process reduces the candidature by one or more persons at each stage, an alliance between two of them does not equate to one joint candidate. They remain as two candidates, each of whom could be eliminated.

 

Keep it up. You're providing great entertainment value with your ideas on how the process ought to work ideally in your very own little Utopia.

So, here is how Gove commented on the alliance that was potentially going to happen between Gove and Stewart:

Mr Gove said: “We are in it to win it and we would welcome the support of any candidate that wanted to drop out and support us.”

As I said, senile.

So, here is how Gove commented on the alliance that was potentially going to happen between Gove and Stewart:

 

Mr Gove said: “We are in it to win it and we would welcome the support of any candidate that wanted to drop out and support us.”

 

As I said, senile.

I have to keep on repeating although your skull seems to be too thick for it to penetrate, a candidate withdrawing and supporting another one, does not mean that all of their votes automatically transfer to the other one. Are you not going to defend your ridiculous assertion that if Hunt and Gove united earlier in the process, there would not be any need for a final ballot? And as I also asked, which of the two of them would you have expected to withdraw, Hunt or Gove?

Keep it going. You crack me up.

It's nearly BoJo time.

Who ever the new PM is he might have one less MP.

MP Chris Davies unseated after petition triggers by-election

A by-election will be held in Brecon and Radnorshire after 10,005 people signed a petition to remove the constituency's Conservative MP, Chris Davies.

Mr Davies had been*convicted of a false expenses claim in March*.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-politics-48720176

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You're clearly not getting this - it's like having a conversation in an old peoples home.

I have to keep on repeating although your skull seems to be too thick for it to penetrate, a candidate withdrawing and supporting another one, does not mean that all of their votes automatically transfer to the other one.

I know it doesn't mean their votes automatically transfer - where did I say they did?

Are you not going to defend your ridiculous assertion that if Hunt and Gove united earlier in the process, there would not be any need for a final ballot?

If they did it between the 4th and the 5th ballot, which is where I said they needed to combine forces, and one subsequently pulled out to support the other, then how and why would they have a final ballot between 2 candidates? They're already chosen, and go through to the membership ballot.

And as I also asked, which of the two of them would you have expected to withdraw, Hunt or Gove?

Hunt

Who ever the new PM is he might have one less MP.

 

MP Chris Davies unseated after petition triggers by-election

 

A by-election will be held in Brecon and Radnorshire after 10,005 people signed a petition to remove the constituency's Conservative MP, Chris Davies.

 

Mr Davies had been*convicted of a false expenses claim in March*.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-politics-48720176

 

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How can it be acceptable in this day and age that this needed a petition to trigger a by-election?

The fact that it doesn't happen automatically following a conviction of fraud in public office speaks volumes about how corrupt and out-dated our political framework really is.

Wes is right UJ. It makes no difference if Gove and Hunt had colluded or not, Boris was always going to have enough votes to make the final two. All that is left now is for The Blue Rinse Brigade to decide who is the least objectionable between Johnson and Hunt. I’m quite looking forward to a Labour/LibDem coalition at the end of the year. We desperately need a new direction in this country. When people start talking about deciding between Hunt and Johnson for PM you know things are bad.

Wes is right UJ. It makes no difference if Gove and Hunt had colluded or not, Boris was always going to have enough votes to make the final two. All that is left now is for The Blue Rinse Brigade to decide who is the least objectionable between Johnson and Hunt. I’m quite looking forward to a Labour/LibDem coalition at the end of the year. We desperately need a new direction in this country. When people start talking about deciding between Hunt and Johnson for PM you know things are bad.

It's not about Boris not making the final two - he was always going to make the final two - I've always said that.

It's about Gove and Hunt having a better chance in the Membership ballots - not the MP ballots - than Hunt on his own.

This is an argument about process, more than candidates.

It's not about Boris not making the final two - he was always going to make the final two - I've always said that.

 

It's about Gove and Hunt having a better chance in the Membership ballots - not the MP ballots - than Hunt on his own.

 

This is an argument about process, more than candidates.

Don’t follow. Gove could still come out and say he supports or endorses Hunt.

More importantly, Gove’s supporters are likely to gravitate to Hunt without any formal alliance or coordination if they -as it appears to be- are primarily interested in stopping Johnson and the risk of a disorderly Brexit. The debate in the leadership election isn’t between leave and remain (as you imply in places) but whether the candidate is willing to push through a no deal no ifs no buts. In other words, there’s no difference between Hunt and Gove who are both appealing to the same constituency. Never mind all the arithmetic and polling points to a comfortable Johnson win.

Don’t follow. Gove could still come out and say he supports or endorses Hunt.

 

More importantly, Gove’s supporters are likely to gravitate to Hunt without any formal alliance or coordination if they -as it appears to be- are primarily interested in stopping Johnson and the risk of a disorderly Brexit. The debate in the leadership election isn’t between leave and remain (as you imply in places) but whether the candidate is willing to push through a no deal no ifs no buts. In other words, there’s no difference between Hunt and Gove who are both appealing to the same constituency. Never mind all the arithmetic and polling points to a comfortable Johnson win.

There's two arguments ongoing:

1. That if Gove and Hunt had joined forces yesterday afternoon after Avid went, and one quit, there would have been no final MP ballot.

2. That it would be closer if Gove, supported by Hunt, would have had more chance against Boris than Hunt in his own.

As I said earlier, Gove and Hunt's Brexit strategies are essentially the same, which is why they could be aligned.

The point is that Gove is more threatening to Boris in every way, hence why Boris put Gove out.

A Gove led opposition in the membership vote (with Hunt supporting) will garner more support than just a Hunt led opposition, or a Hunt led opposition (with Gove supporting).

As I have said numerous times, I expect a Johnson win, but it would have been closer had Gove and Hunt come to an agreement on an alliance after Javid went.

It's mental that this argument has gone this far after a throwaway comment yesterday afternoon.

There's two arguments ongoing:

 

1. That if Gove and Hunt had joined forces yesterday afternoon after Avid went, and one quit, there would have been no final MP ballot.

 

2. That it would be closer if Gove, supported by Hunt, would have had more chance against Boris than Hunt in his own.

 

As I said earlier, Gove and Hunt's Brexit strategies are essentially the same, which is why they could be aligned.

 

The point is that Gove is more threatening to Boris in every way, hence why Boris put Gove out.

 

A Gove led opposition in the membership vote (with Hunt supporting) will garner more support than just a Hunt led opposition, or a Hunt led opposition (with Gove supporting).

 

As I have said numerous times, I expect a Johnson win, but it would have been closer had Gove and Hunt come to an agreement on an alliance after Javid went.

 

It's mental that this argument has gone this far after a throwaway comment yesterday afternoon.

Agree. If Hunt had fallen on his sword after Javid's elimination and let Gove proceed uncontested to the membership vote (a huge if which ignores the role of personal ambition), then yes Gove would have stood a better chance against Johnson. Of course, it would have still required a huge collapse from Johnson but if anyone was going to engineer it, it would have been Gove, not Hunt. To use a sporting metaphor (which Gove seems to like), you don't bring on another defender or central midfielder when chasing a game.

Agree. If Hunt had fallen on his sword after Javid's elimination and let Gove proceed uncontested to the membership vote (a huge if which ignores the role of personal ambition), then yes Gove would have stood a better chance against Johnson. Of course, it would have still required a huge collapse from Johnson but if anyone was going to engineer it, it would have been Gove, not Hunt. To use a sporting metaphor (which Gove seems to like), you don't bring on another defender or central midfielder when chasing a game.

Exactly.

as it appears to be- are primarily interested in stopping Johnson and the risk of a disorderly Brexit.

The 39bn is peanuts btw as Europe can make it cost 3 times that by adding extra to any transactions by the City of Lndon hen they are trading in Europe. They only have to add .000002to the charge to deal in Europe and the trillions traded each day will soon rack up to many billions

If you read between the lines Johnson is not likely to go for that type of exit, he will play with Mays deal and make it look like he has got concessions. Its always a play on words and making the new deal seem better than the old one even if it has only just been played about around the edges.

The 39bn is peanuts btw as Europe can make it cost 3 times that by adding extra to any transactions by the City of Lndon hen they are trading in Europe. They only have to add .000002to the charge to deal in Europe and the trillions traded each day will soon rack up to many billions

He’ll get absolutely destroyed by the ERG and the wider grassroots if that’s the case. While he might pretend otherwise, the Tory membership isn’t voting for him because hes ‘Boris’ but because of his firm promises on Brexit. The tail is now wagging the dog.

He’ll get absolutely destroyed by the ERG and the wider grassroots if that’s the case. While he might pretend otherwise, the Tory membership isn’t voting for him because hes ‘Boris’ but because of his firm promises on Brexit. The tail is now wagging the dog.

Yet even in Tuesday's debate he couldn't confirm that he'd take us out on the 31st October.

The MPs, and now the Membership are being conned by a duplicitous, opportunitist, remain, pinky Tory.

He’ll get absolutely destroyed by the ERG and the wider grassroots if that’s the case. While he might pretend otherwise, the Tory membership isn’t voting for him because hes ‘Boris’ but because of his firm promises on Brexit. The tail is now wagging the dog.

I do get that, but when you become the PM and have to be responsible for rash decisions the finger doesn't press the button quite so hastily. I may be misreading the situation but Boris has always believed he is Churchill and will want to go down in history as a PM that is revered, being totally reckless is not the way 'to go forward together'

As a war leader Churchill was just what was needed, politically he was never as good as revisionist historians might have us believe, e.g. the Gold Standard. And remember he was pro Europe, and crossed the floor to join the Liberals.

I do get that, but when you become the PM and have to be responsible for rash decisions the finger doesn't press the button quite so hastily. I may be misreading the situation but Boris has always believed he is Churchill and will want to go down in history as a PM that is revered, being totally reckless is not the way 'to go forward together'

I agree and no doubt he'll feel torn and wish he had more room for manoeuvre. But he will have been installed in power for one reason and one reason only, that's to leave on October 31 no ifs no buts.

Can't wait to see him get his comeuppance.

Tory MP Chris Davies has been booted out for fiddling his expenses.

Should be an interesting by-election.

Tory MP Chris Davies has been booted out for fiddling his expenses.

 

Should be an interesting by-election.

Lib Dems in...

Lib Dems in...

With an 8000 majority, if Farage takes votes from the Tories, the Lib Dems could profit.

Tory MP Chris Davies has been booted out for fiddling his expenses.

 

Should be an interesting by-election.

I’m not sure on which planet Gove and Hunt could be perceived as a dream ticket. Gove is a slimy piece of work. Whatever you think of Johnson that stab in the back was deeply unpleasant. Hunt has had a less than stellar ministerial career and probably should have been removed to the back benches a long time ago. As for Johnson, God help us. We were on the edge of a possible interesting period of electoral reform a few years ago, but Clegg made the wrong choice and now we are stuck with these clowns.

I’m not sure on which planet Gove and Hunt could be perceived as a dream ticket. Gove is a slimy piece of work. Whatever you think of Johnson that stab in the back was deeply unpleasant. Hunt has had a less than stellar ministerial career and probably should have been removed to the back benches a long time ago. As for Johnson, God help us. We were on the edge of a possible interesting period of electoral reform a few years ago, but Clegg made the wrong choice and now we are stuck with these clowns.

I think that this sums it up nicely:

https://newsthump.com/2019/06/20/tory-leadership-battle-reduced-to-twt-vs-cnt/

How can it be acceptable in this day and age that this needed a petition to trigger a by-election?

 

The fact that it doesn't happen automatically following a conviction of fraud in public office speaks volumes about how corrupt and out-dated our political framework really is.

its more ridiculous when you see what he did.....

Mr Davies had tried to split the cost of £700 worth of pictures between two office budgets by creating fake invoices, when he could have claimed the amount by other means.

I’m not sure on which planet Gove and Hunt could be perceived as a dream ticket. Gove is a slimy piece of work. Whatever you think of Johnson that stab in the back was deeply unpleasant. Hunt has had a less than stellar ministerial career and probably should have been removed to the back benches a long time ago. As for Johnson, God help us. We were on the edge of a possible interesting period of electoral reform a few years ago, but Clegg made the wrong choice and now we are stuck with these clowns.

Who said they were a dream ticket? Not sure anyone has even been close to saying that. Lesser of two evils, for sure.

This will help Boris’ campaign no end.

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You're clearly not getting this - it's like having a conversation in an old peoples home.

 

I know it doesn't mean their votes automatically transfer - where did I say they did?

 

If they did it between the 4th and the 5th ballot, which is where I said they needed to combine forces, and one subsequently pulled out to support the other, then how and why would they have a final ballot between 2 candidates? They're already chosen, and go through to the membership ballot.

 

Hunt

I've asked you several times already. Which of Hunt or Gove was going to resign? You also don't appear able to understand that whichever of them stood aside, it would be futile, as Boris would win the membership vote regardless. As you are in full insult mode, it is clear that you have lost the argument badly and are thrashing about in a vain attempt to cover your arse.

It pointless in continuing this argument with you, as when it comes to the rules of the Tory Party leadership elections, you clearly just don't know what you're talking about.

Has he been beating up his missus?

https://apple.news/AgtI7IQLpQAWTgAOYb_bX_g

I've asked you several times already. Which of Hunt or Gove was going to resign? You also don't appear able to understand that whichever of them stood aside, it would be futile, as Boris would win the membership vote regardless. As you are in full insult mode, it is clear that you have lost the argument badly and are thrashing about in a vain attempt to cover your arse.

It’s baffling how he doesn’t get it. Rightly or wrongly the winner will have to be a strong Brexiter. Gove has damaged himself by voting 3 times for May’s turd, not resigning and taking to the airwaves to defend it. The only hope he had was to prove he was a proper Brexiter & somehow convince the party he’d leave without a deal if necessary. Jeff doesn’t seem to understand that aligning himself with Hunt will blow that hope away.

Hunt has no hope, unless he went into an alliance with Raab or JRM, Baker or similar. Going into an alliance with Gove just won’t cut do it. What he’s saying makes sense in some circumstances, but not these. Reaching out to voters you’ve already got is pointless and alienates the voters you need.

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Has he been beating up his missus?

 

https://apple.news/AgtI7IQLpQAWTgAOYb_bX_g

Probably just you smashing one out to women’s football, you dirtbox

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Probably just you smashing one out to women’s football, you dirtbox

 

 

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Oh such provocation you witless irrelevant, desperate to be involved, arse.

Makes no sense either but as I said witless so not surprising.

The Mail’s darling

I've asked you several times already. Which of Hunt or Gove was going to resign? You also don't appear able to understand that whichever of them stood aside, it would be futile, as Boris would win the membership vote regardless. As you are in full insult mode, it is clear that you have lost the argument badly and are thrashing about in a vain attempt to cover your arse.

 

It pointless in continuing this argument with you, as when it comes to the rules of the Tory Party leadership elections, you clearly just don't know what you're talking about.

I replied, Hunt? It's the last line of the quote you have quoted above? I quoted your question, and then answered it - surely you can see that?

I have said above that Boris would win the membership vote about five times irregardless - I've never said that a Gove and Hunt ticket would win - read back through my posts and you'll see that.

I know you've been caught out, again, and you're embarrassed, but mate, what rules have I said that aren't true? If there are two people left in the leadership election before the last MP ballot, that ballot doesn't take place. That's a fact - it's not up for debate.