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A tale of two Cluster***k Windows - Jan 17 & 18


Dusic

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The question is, which was worse?

 

Jan 2017:

 

The Dream

We still had a decent squad, if signifcantly weakened by the departures of Mane, Pelle, Wanyama and ultimately Koeman in the previous summer. With a chance of a cup final and still a decent finish, fans were looking to kick on and rediscover our form from the season before.

 

 

We really needed something extra going forward as we missed Mane and Pelle badly, but arguably were ok in other areas.

 

The Reality

 

- On 20th January, following a protracted worsening of his relationship with the club, Jose Fonte joined West Ham for £8m.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38694821

 

Most Saints fans were not happy with this, but the club tried to spin it as a great offer for an ageing player. In reality, he was the leader of the team, still a very competent PL CB and would almost certainly be our best CB now, almost 3 years later. Later there would be spin that he came back from the Euros as a disruptive force.

 

To compound this, just a day after the sale of Fonte, Virgil Van Dijk was KO'd by Jamie Vardy, ruling him out for the season, and meaning he would miss the 2nd leg of the LC semi final, and the subsequent final.

 

By this stage it was clear we needed a CB and fans had expected one as a replacement for Fonte. We were not safe from relegation by then, and with VVD's injury were left with a rookie in Jack Stephens, plus players like Maya Yoshida who had always been a back up option.

 

We failed to sign a CB in the window, and fans were mad.

 

We then signed Martin Caceres on 16th February, an Intl defender of great experience. We barely gave him a minute.

 

We did sign Gabbiadini, who we had been linked with for while, and he started his Saints career really well. But the lack of a CB and loss of our best two made this a window of frustration for Saints fans.

 

 

The Comedy

 

Little to laugh about here apart from rumours of Caceres off-field behaviour - not exactly the model pro!

 

Jan 2018:

 

The Dream:

 

With VVD sold right at the start of the window, Saints briefed their favoured Journalists with the list of our ambitious targets. Ryan Sessegnon, Theo Walcott, Luke Shaw, Daniel Sturridge, Alfie Mawson

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/12/27/liverpool-agree-world-record-75m-deal-virgil-van-dijk/

 

Exclusive: Saints agree to sell Van Dijk to Liverpool for a world record fee for a defender.

“The structure and timing of the transfer reflects Southampton’s desire to now make major signings of their own and they are committed to reinvesting the entire fee. They hope to add an attacking player next week and are also lining up other deals.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/12/27/liverpool-agree-world-record-75m-deal-virgil-van-dijk/

Exclusive: Saints keen on Daniel Sturridge and make audacious move for Ryan Sessegnon

Southampton have also been linked with several of their former players who are now struggling for regular football, notably Theo Walcott and Luke Shaw, and would be interested if they could match their wage demands.

 

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/15808325.southampton-hope-to-sign-former-player-theo-walcott-from-arsenal/

Former TSP Stalwart Adam Leitch: Saints hope to sign Theo Walcott:

 

Once Walcott's move failed to materialise, Saints chased after Quincy Promes.

 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11700/11212994/southampton-want-spartak-moscows-quincy-promes-with-winger-keen-on-move-to-england

SSN: Southampton want Spartak Moscow’s Quincy Promes

 

 

 

The Reality:

 

Walcott went to Everton.

 

Saints chased Guido Carillo and Wee Ross and Big Les were absolutely schooled by Monaco.

 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11700/11214369/monaco-reject-southamptons-offer-for-guido-carrillo

 

Monaco boss Leonardo Jardim in January press conference: "We do not typically sell players in the winter transfer window. But the month is long and many things* could happen."

 

* desperate English teams with inept recruitment departments.

 

We ended up paying £19.2m for Carrillo:

 

@Southampton FC: Southampton Football Club is delighted to announce the signing of striker Guido Carrillo from AS Monaco.

 

https://www.southamptonfc.com/news/2018-01-25/announcement-guido-carrillo-southampton-signing

 

Vice Chairman (Football) Les Reed said: “A huge amount of work has gone in to completing this transfer, and we are thrilled that we have now been able to push it through to completion.

 

“Guido represents a very exciting addition to our attacking options ahead of the final months of the season, possessing plenty of experience at the highest level, while also having the potential and the desire to improve even further.

 

“We are confident he will benefit us not only in the remainder of this campaign, but in the years to come.”

 

- We didn't sign Promes, instead pushing out some limp crap about agreeing a deal for the future:

 

@Adam Blackmore, BBC Solent: Southampton’s signing of Quincy Promes looks set to be delayed until the summer.

#saintsfc happy to pay fee, player happy to come, but Spartak Moscow can’t replace him in this window and are set to block the move for now.

Saints hope to get agreement on a summer move.

 

- We didn't sign a centre back to replace Van Dijk - and really still haven't.

 

The Comedy

 

A toss up between Saints almost embarrassing briefing of interest in unobtainable players to selected Journalists or SWF's Pamplemousse who insisted Guido Carrillo was great but just hadn't played much.

 

Best mins per goal return since the start of the 2016/17 Ligue 1 season (10+ goals):

Edinson Cavani - 85.2

Alexandre Lacazette - 86

Neymar - 89.8

GUIDO CARRILLO - 91.1

The reason he hasn't scored that many is because he hasn't been played much.

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2017 January window was poor it possibly cost us the league cup final, but you could also argue we weren't going down so perhaps a good time to give Stephens a run in the team to see if he was good enough. The fact that despite some on here claiming he was quality and better than Harry McGuire, he proved beyond doubt he wasn't simply highlighted the failure to address the issue in future windows as all the more incompetent.

 

January 2018 was comedy from before it even opened. We managed to sell Van Dijk and pocket the cash before the window had even opened, then for the rest of the month a whole list of leaked big names and unrealistic signings given to the press ended with us making one of the worst ever signings in the history of soccerball then compounded by sacking the manager, who was the only reason the player signed in the first place only a few weeks later.

 

For desperation, lies, incompetence and comedy value January 2018 will take some beating, I don't think it will be topped, but 2020 has potential

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Yet another thread which has been done to death about something most agree on.

 

Yawn:yawn:

 

Yet you felt the need to coment on it. Strange if you dont like the thread dont read it.

 

I waould also add the summer 2018 , January 2019 and the summer of 2019 to list of poor transfer windows too. Incuding the poor choices of managers/ coaches too.

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Yet you felt the need to coment on it. Strange if you dont like the thread dont read it.

 

I waould also add the summer 2018 , January 2019 and the summer of 2019 to list of poor transfer windows too. Incuding the poor choices of managers/ coaches too.

 

I think he is pointing out the pointlessness of it all.

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For me it was from the loss of Bill Green in Aug 2017 when things went wrong.

 

He was the Chief Scout at the Club from 2011 and was person who had the say on whether he thought the player would make it or not.

In the 6 years he was Chief Scout we made some good purchases (which imo others took the credit for). Since he died the recruitment has been POOR.

 

https://www.southamptonfc.com/news/2017-08-21/southampton-football-club-bill-green

 

During that time, he fulfilled the role of Senior Recruitment Officer, which is commonly referred to across football circles as chief scout, playing a hugely significant part in Southampton’s scouting and recruitment activity.

 

Bill was enormously respected not only at Saints, but across the entire football community, where he is a legendary figure in scouting for the exceptional quality of his work,.........

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For me it was from the loss of Bill Green in Aug 2017 when things went wrong.

 

He was the Chief Scout at the Club from 2011 and was person who had the say on whether he thought the player would make it or not.

In the 6 years he was Chief Scout we made some good purchases (which imo others took the credit for). Since he died the recruitment has been POOR.

 

https://www.southamptonfc.com/news/2017-08-21/southampton-football-club-bill-green

 

Good observation

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The mistake was keeping Pellegrino on as long as we did when everyone could see he wasn’t good enough. If he’d been sacked in December, for example, we could have got a new manager in with a fresh take on the team and signings better than Carillo. But yes we’ve had bad transfer windows for some time now. The Summer window just gone seemed OK attacking wise, bringing in the promising Adams and exciting Djenepo in addition to Ings (how were we to know how that would turn out!) and keeping the likes of Boufal but a panic Danso signing aside, it was more about the players we didn’t sign than those we did...Defence! It seems we persuaded Cedric to stay on as he was the cheap option rather than bringing someone new in.

 

The way I see it, we have one window to get it right or we are down. Centre back, right back as a minimum. Left back and defensive midfielder if possible. It’s hard to see it happening though.

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But the black box has 5 players for every position that have been monitored for years to asses skill and temperament, right??

 

It probably does - just like every other clubs black box does. The difference is other clubs get their top targets and we cant afford to get ours.

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The 2018 window was the worst, holy christ that was bad.

 

So much spin, so much hope, absolutely nothing provided. We shelved a decent portion of the VVD fortune on a player recommended by a manager who was on his last legs! Honestly, how is that a club operating any sort of due diligence or financial long-term planning. I thought we had the ‘Southampton way’? It was probably the worst way any professional club could ever operate in a transfer market.

 

I'm glad both Ross and Les are no longer involved, they absolutely took the **** - especially Ross, he’s stealing a living.

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I can't see us getting anyone of quality in to improve the side. If you were a decent player, would you want to come to Southampton and fight relegation most seasons?

Ralph is now blinkered on the side he selects too, believing maintaining the same 14 every games improves cohesion. Give me the name of a proven CB, and ask if he would (not should) replace the current incumbents. Ralph wouldn't change his side now.

I want to proven wrong, however, and hope the club do decide to spend on quality in Jan and that Ralph uses them.

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The mistake was keeping Pellegrino on as long as we did when everyone could see he wasn’t good enough. If he’d been sacked in December, for example, we could have got a new manager in with a fresh take on the team and signings better than Carillo. But yes we’ve had bad transfer windows for some time now.

 

Pellegrino clearly must have played a part in identifying Carillo but ultimately it was Les Reed and the board who signed off on paying £19m for him! Absolutely bat**** mental to pay that much over the odds on a player with distinctly average record so clearly wedded to a manager who everyone knew that the board were already very close to replacing! Crazy stuff and indicative of how the club had completely lost its way in its decision making.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Pellegrino clearly must have played a part in identifying Carillo but ultimately it was Les Reed and the board who signed off on paying £19m for him! Absolutely bat**** mental to pay that much over the odds on a player with distinctly average record so clearly wedded to a manager who everyone knew that the board were already very close to replacing! Crazy stuff and indicative of how the club had completely lost its way in its decision making.
Imagine if that transfer window had been part of an Amazon Prime documentary.

 

Would have ended careers and destroyed reputations.

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A timely bump of this thread. Illustrates perfectly what many of us were saying about pr tactics and being linked to tons of players that we were never realistically going to sign. Absolutely spunked the vvd cash up the wall the following summer.

 

Jan 2017 should have been when the alarm bells started. If I remember rightly, we were linked to Sakho (of Liverpool at the time) but narrowly missed out.. where have I heard that before?

 

Ironically, we ended up with a panic buy (again, where have I heard that before), who was actually pretty decent... but we never played him :lol:

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Jan 2017 should have been when the alarm bells started. If I remember rightly, we were linked to Sakho (of Liverpool at the time) but narrowly missed out.. where have I heard that before?

 

Ironically, we ended up with a panic buy (again, where have I heard that before), who was actually pretty decent... but we never played him :lol:

 

According to the telegraph articles we also just missed out on Maddison, McGuire, Promes too, all players that would have Improved the side dramatically, instead we ended up with a load of dross we can’t give away.

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A timely bump of this thread. Illustrates perfectly what many of us were saying about pr tactics and being linked to tons of players that we were never realistically going to sign. Absolutely spunked the vvd cash up the wall the following summer.

 

How does it illustrate that? The replies on this thread just show badly all these failed transfer windows have been for PR. Nobody has been placated, if this is a PR tactic then it has bombed spectacularly.

 

Ironically, we ended up with a panic buy (again, where have I heard that before)

 

Crazy stuff and indicative of how the club had completely lost its way in its decision making.

 

I can't see us getting anyone of quality in to improve the side.

 

The 2018 window was the worst, holy christ that was bad.

 

So much spin, so much hope, absolutely nothing provided.

 

. The difference is other clubs get their top targets and we cant afford to get ours.

 

What a shambles. We haven’t exactly learned our lesson since either.

 

For desperation, lies, incompetence and comedy value January 2018 will take some beating, I don't think it will be topped, but 2020 has potential
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How does it illustrate that? The replies on this thread just show badly all these failed transfer windows have been for PR. Nobody has been placated, if this is a PR tactic then it has bombed spectacularly.
No it didn't. The tactic worked perfectly at the time. It placated loads of the fans who instead of being rightly angry at the pitiful transfer window efforts, either shrugged and said at least we tried or in some cases praised the club for showing ambition even if it didn't come off. Do you seriously think that had we not employed those tactics and simple stayed quiet and not signed anyone that that would have been a better pr move for the club? It's not something I like but I totally understand why they do it because it works very well. In hindsight people can talk about how poor the window was, but why would the club give two ****s about the views of a few fans about a season three years ago? It's about having the most positive mindset from the largest number of fans about the current situation.
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The Jan 2017 one was grim.

 

Jan 2018 was a totral disaster. Carillo. Jesus wept. I remember when we lamented what a waste of money Agustin Delgado was. That was all of 3.6m and he even got the winning goal against Arsenal, I seem to recall.

Edited by SaintBobby
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I remember when a few on here tried to use ‘stats’ to suggest Carrillo had a decent scoring record.....

 

The whole Pellegrino/Carrillo thing was just bizarre

 

I could understand the Carrillo signing if it was for a manager who we weren’t clearly going to get rid of as they aren’t cut out for it. For example clasie for Koeman or if Ralph brought in a flop from RB.

 

But it was just so obvious that MP wasn’t cut out for it.

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I remember when a few on here tried to use ‘stats’ to suggest Carrillo had a decent scoring record.....

 

The whole Pellegrino/Carrillo thing was just bizarre

 

Yes that's right, something along the lines of, if you excluded games he didn't start, games where he didn't get subbed off, games against teams outside of the top 4 in the country he was playing, games where he came on as a sub for more than 20 minutes, then he averages a goal every 245 minutes!

 

I could understand the Carrillo signing if it was for a manager who we weren’t clearly going to get rid of as they aren’t cut out for it. For example clasie for Koeman or if Ralph brought in a flop from RB.

 

But it was just so obvious that MP wasn’t cut out for it.

 

What makes it even stranger is that Kruger said later they had thought about sacking Pellegrino several times but then results improved. So much for our much self lauded long term planning then if the managers job is decided on a win at a championship club in the FA Cup or against the team bottom of the league and then a record transfer fee is sanctioned with the managers job not just under threat, but he was actually sacked just over a month after the signing was made. It beggars belief.

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No it didn't. The tactic worked perfectly at the time. It placated loads of the fans who instead of being rightly angry at the pitiful transfer window efforts, either shrugged and said at least we tried or in some cases praised the club for showing ambition even if it didn't come off. Do you seriously think that had we not employed those tactics and simple stayed quiet and not signed anyone that that would have been a better pr move for the club? It's not something I like but I totally understand why they do it because it works very well. In hindsight people can talk about how poor the window was, but why would the club give two ****s about the views of a few fans about a season three years ago? It's about having the most positive mindset from the largest number of fans about the current situation.

 

I guess we just disagree on that fundamentally, I haven’t seen anything to suggest fans were satisfied that we’d tried and failed to sign players. I don’t see any way in which it could be said that worked, if it was a tactic to placate fans. Almost all the opinion I can remember, both at the time and since then, has been overwhelmingly negative. We’ve nearly been relegated, Reed lost his job and everyone was glad to see him gone. Fans are p*ssed off, I’ve not seen one person saying they wish he’d stayed because he nearly signed Promes.

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and the point of this thread is what exactly???

 

It's history. It's gone.

 

Move on

 

Only move on if mistakes are learnt from.

 

Based on the past couple of years, I have 0 confidence the club will deliver this January or next summer for that matter.

 

Hopefully I’m wrong and with the appointment of Crocker and whispers of Gao wanting out, hopefully things will start to improve.

 

If they don’t, fans need to take action, rather than just ‘move on’. All imo of course.

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