Blasphemy and Duck Rape

What I'd like to know is how MLG gets more than 3 posts a day as Registered User?

Am I well behind the times or is it divine intervention?

 

If ever there was proof of God...or the devil.

 

I've been unmasked!

 

 

While we are talking about the devil... the devil doesn't kill as many people as God in the Bible.

 

Is the devil the good guy in the fairy-tale?

 

 

1. Which is more far fetched...?

 

- people create a country (which they have been doing for a very long time)

- a God for whom there is no credible evidence intervenes and creates a country

 

 

 

2. You are just creating your own definitions now.

 

 

 

3. People believing want they want is fine to a point, the problem is many let their irrational God beliefs impact on their actions and their actions impact on other people and society. That is an issue that needs to be tackled.

 

1. Bingo. That's the million dollar question Matthew, which is more far fetched? The answer is entirely subjective and entirely free of evidence in my opinion. On your point, I agree that man created Israel in that it approved the idea, supplied the money, and bricks and mortar. It's a country. A physical entity. Of course it wasn't created by osmosis. Your idea, however, that the concept and subsequent events have happened because man wanted the reality to fall in line with prophecies in a book is a concept I can't buy into.

 

2. Mate, you're the man who says there's no such thing as an agnostic. As I say, be what you want, makes no odds to me.

 

3. That's a lot of words to say "I'm right, they're wrong, and I'll keep hammering my point home". Describing people's opinions as "irrational" hardly suggests that you buy into the "live and let live" concept.

I think I would have chosen an area where there was no indigenous population.

 

South Pole? Jungles of PNG? Middle of Australia?

I'm not here to tell you what you are, no more than you can expect people to agree with what believe / don't, but ^^^^ up there somewhere you said that you needed evidence to believe thus by my understanding that's the definition of an agnostic. The interpretation of atheism is a whole new subject, but if you want to be one of them instead, knock yourself out.

 

Of course man created man made things!! Nobody is claiming otherwise. The point you make is that man created a whole nation (Israel) and made it a mega power cos man wanted its creation to tie in with the Bible prophecies. As I say, all options seem far fetched but I can't believe world powers sat down after ww2 and said "about this Jewish state, let's have a look at the bible and do what it said in there". Is that really what you're saying?

 

FFS

 

You think the Bible plucked Jerusalem out of its ass or you think maybe the writers of the Bible knew Jerusalem was already an important site for the Jews? The fact that two disparate groups of people know the same thing doesn’t establish some sort of spiritual link between them.

1. Bingo. That's the million dollar question Matthew, which is more far fetched? The answer is entirely subjective and entirely free of evidence in my opinion. On your point, I agree that man created Israel in that it approved the idea, supplied the money, and bricks and mortar. It's a country. A physical entity. Of course it wasn't created by osmosis. Your idea, however, that the concept and subsequent events have happened because man wanted the reality to fall in line with prophecies in a book is a concept I can't buy into.

 

I'm not sure why you find it hard to believe that Jews who have in their scripture that a Jewish nation would be formed wouldn't attempt to form a Jewish nation.

 

People creating nations happens and we only have evidence nations are formed by people. We don't have evidence of God's intervening, so the latter is clearly significantly far fetched.

 

2. Mate, you're the man who says there's no such thing as an agnostic. As I say, be what you want, makes no odds to me.

 

- Atheism & theism tackles belief

- Agnosticism and Gnosticism tackles knowledge

 

Knowledge is a subset of belief

 

 

3. That's a lot of words to say "I'm right, they're wrong, and I'll keep hammering my point home". Describing people's opinions as "irrational" hardly suggests that you buy into the "live and let live" concept.

 

It is by definition irrational to believe in something without good evidence to support it. Belief in any God lacks good evidence and so is irrational.

 

...or can you provide some good evidence to support a God claim?

FFS

 

You think the Bible plucked Jerusalem out of its ass or you think maybe the writers of the Bible knew Jerusalem was already an important site for the Jews? The fact that two disparate groups of people know the same thing doesn’t establish some sort of spiritual link between them.

 

I'm saying that I don't have a theory on whether the realised events flowing from the prophecies were a) Bible predictions coming true because of some divine intervention or b) people working backwards to fulfil a prophecy or c) coincidence. I repeat that I can see how people could see a), b) and c) all as being far fetched but that I don't buy into this MLG idea that the whole Israel thing (it's creation and growth) has come about cos a group of blokes picked up the bible and said "we have to make it look like that".

I'm not sure why you find it hard to believe that Jews who have in their scripture that a Jewish nation would be formed wouldn't attempt to form a Jewish nation.

 

People creating nations happens and we only have evidence nations are formed by people. We don't have evidence of God's intervening, so the latter is clearly significantly far fetched.

 

2. Mate, you're the man who says there's no such thing as an agnostic. As I say, be what you want, makes no odds to me.

 

- Atheism & theism tackles belief

- Agnosticism and Gnosticism tackles knowledge

 

Knowledge is a subset of belief

 

 

 

 

It is by definition irrational to believe in something without good evidence to support it. Belief in any God lacks good evidence and so is irrational.

 

...or can you provide some good evidence to support a God claim?

 

This is tedious. You're a self proclaimed atheist. I'm not. I've said that I respect your view, and that I'm not here to justify my view. There is nothing more to say mate.

I'm saying that I don't have a theory on whether the realised events flowing from the prophecies were a) Bible predictions coming true because of some divine intervention or b) people working backwards to fulfil a prophecy or c) coincidence. I repeat that I can see how people could see a), b) and c) all as being far fetched but that I don't buy into this MLG idea that the whole Israel thing (it's creation and growth) has come about cos a group of blokes picked up the bible and said "we have to make it look like that".

 

The creators of Israel were Jewish, Jews have the Old Testament as the core of their beliefs... why would they not model it on their own scripture of what they believe their God wants? Would be odd for them to go against their own Holy Book wouldn't it?

2. Mate, you're the man who says there's no such thing as an agnostic. As I say, be what you want, makes no odds to me.

 

This is tedious. You're a self proclaimed atheist. I'm not. I've said that I respect your view, and that I'm not here to justify my view. There is nothing more to say mate.

Why did you get into a long forum conversation with MLG and not think it would end in tedium? More fool you. Edited 31 December, 2019 by hypochondriac

The creators of Israel were Jewish, Jews have the Old Testament as the core of their beliefs... why would they not model it on their own scripture of what they believe their God wants? Would be odd for them to go against their own Holy Book wouldn't it?

You're moving your own goalposts. Your position is that the state of Israel and subsequent events came about cos people (not the Jews) created a reality to tie in with the bible.

Why did you get into a long forum conversation with MLG and not think it would end in tedium? More fool you.

 

I know!! I'm going out, enough of this ****.

You're moving your own goalposts. Your position is that the state of Israel and subsequent events came about cos people (not the Jews) created a reality to tie in with the bible.

 

What goalposts have been moved? I said Jews worked towards building a nation for themselves.

I'm not here to justify my view.

 

Why not state what you believe regarding God and why?

South Pole? Jungles of PNG? Middle of Australia?

 

Yep, all sound good!

1) Did they work towards creating a country?

 

Yes, I really don't see how anyone can dispute that!

 

2) 'planted oil in it'

 

Where in the Bible does it mention oil being in Israel???

 

Plus oil is made of creatures that are millions of years old. The Bible states the world is 6,000 years old.

 

3) 'Russia, Iran and Turkey have sent soilders to the Northern border of this country'

 

Where in the Bible does the Bible mention that those countries would do that?

 

So you’ve just blown apart your own argument about self fulfilling prophecy, people knowing of a prophecy so deliberately fulfilling it

South Pole? Jungles of PNG? Middle of Australia?

 

Not a good idea!

 

So you’ve just blown apart your own argument about self fulfilling prophecy, people knowing of a prophecy so deliberately fulfilling it

 

How does that blow apart my argument?

Why not state what you believe regarding God and why?

 

Because what I believe has nothing to do with you. Live and let live.

How does that blow apart my argument?

 

You really are dense. How would Russian, Iran and Turkey be self- fulfilling a prophecy they didn't know anything about?

You really are dense. How would Russian, Iran and Turkey be self- fulfilling a prophecy they didn't know anything about?

 

When did I say they would be self fulfilling a prophecy? I didn't!

 

They are not mentioned in the prophecy!

You call me dense... yet make up things I didn't actually say!

You call me dense... yet make up things I didn't actually say!

 

I didn't make anything up pal

 

1) Do you know what a 'self fulfilling prophecy' means? Because if someone is aware of an old prophecy and then people are actively working towards fulfilling it... it isn't in the slightest remarkable.

2) The Bible passage you quote is so vague and doesn't even have dates. Why does it not mention 1948? That would at least at least make it a little more impressive, but even if it did have dates that happened accurately I'd then refer you to my first point

3) You say 'as if by magic Israel became a nation'. The creation of Israel was due to people working to make it happen. How is that magic or divine intervention? Jews wanted it to happen... so they worked to make it happen"

 

So Russia, Iran and Turkey must only be there because the are self-fulfilling a prophecy, a prophecy they didn't know anything about.

 

Proper dense.

As like most people of my generation I was spoon feed religion as a child. In my case it was the Protestant version of Christianity. When I started think think for myself it made no logical sense to me so I bailed out. A few years ago I dabbled in spirituality, not the God type but the universe type. It made more sense than the organised religion stuff but in the end it still makes more sense to deal with what we can sense in there here and now. Focus your engery into what is good for you and those around you and you can’t go far wrong. Over the years I have dated some religious believers including a Mormon, a lapsed Jehovah’s Witness and a Born Again Christian. We didn’t used to talk about religion much, but when we did and I asked them why they believed that all said that they “just did.” There was no hard evidence, just blind faith. At first I used to feel left out. Why could they feel God within them and I couldn’t? What was wrong with me? After a while I began wondering whether the feeling of finding God within you was more to do with a sense of relief of finding a sense of order in a world and universe where consciousness and being make no logical sense whatsoever. The way that mankind has made sense of the universe since we crawled out of the swamps is to believe is some intelligent power bigger than us. Some religions have multiple dieties and some just the one. Many have been ditched over the centuries in favour of just one, although that one often differs or has interacted with us in ways that we completely disagree with each other about. Is is very hard for a non believer to take religion seriously when it is at such odds with itself here on Earth. Believers cannot agree between themselves about what the written words mean and how they should be interpreted. People are still being persecuted and put to death because they a different perception of God and what needs to be done to serve Him/Her/It. I would argue that an all powerful diety has long since served its purpose. We don’t need a vengeful God to keep us in our place. We already have the power to destroy the planet many times over. We are destroying the planet ourselves anyway by the way we have chosen to live. Surely it is better to stop passing off responsibility for our failings by bringing in some supernatural being and just deal with what we actually know to be 100% true, which is our lives in the here and now. When I hear the words “it is Gods will” all I can think is what a kop out. A complete denial of our own responsibility as individuals and as a species. We are all God and we all stand or fall by what we do here on Earth.

I didn't make anything up pal

 

1) Do you know what a 'self fulfilling prophecy' means? Because if someone is aware of an old prophecy and then people are actively working towards fulfilling it... it isn't in the slightest remarkable.

2) The Bible passage you quote is so vague and doesn't even have dates. Why does it not mention 1948? That would at least at least make it a little more impressive, but even if it did have dates that happened accurately I'd then refer you to my first point

3) You say 'as if by magic Israel became a nation'. The creation of Israel was due to people working to make it happen. How is that magic or divine intervention? Jews wanted it to happen... so they worked to make it happen"

 

So Russia, Iran and Turkey must only be there because the are self-fulfilling a prophecy, a prophecy they didn't know anything about.

 

Proper dense.

 

No where in that post do I make reference to Russian, Iran and Turkey. Nor does the Bible mention them.

 

My post is solely about Jews working to make Israel.

 

You did to look closer to home for dense... because you seemingly are unable to read and comprehend the English language!

No where in that post do I make reference to Russian, Iran and Turkey. Nor does the Bible mention them.

 

My post is solely about Jews working to make Israel.

 

You did to look closer to home for dense... because you seemingly are unable to read and comprehend the English language!

 

OKay so the only people self fulfilling the prophecy are the israelis, the ones on the border, also part of the prophecy, just happened to be there. EIther the entire prophecy is self fulfilling or none of it is

OKay so the only people self fulfilling the prophecy are the israelis, the ones on the border, also part of the prophecy, just happened to be there. EIther the entire prophecy is self fulfilling or none of it is

 

1) The prophecy does not mention Iran, Russia or Turkey.

 

2) Even if it did mention them, explain why it would have to be all or nothing?

1) The prophecy does not mention Iran, Russia or Turkey.

 

2) Even if it did mention them, explain why it would have to be all or nothing?

 

Exactly! It didn't mention them, so how were they going to be able to self-fulfil a prophecy if they didn't know anything about it?!!

Wasn't 'Israel' already known as 'Israel' long before the alleged birth of Christ???

 

In about 931 B.C., the area was divided into two kingdoms: Israel in the north and Judah in the south.

 

https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/history-of-israel

 

Is it that much of a prophecy to say that something that already existed may come back again in the future??

 

If so, then my prophecy (which you can all bow down and pray to me when it comes true) is that one day Saints will win at home, they will also win away from home and will have score draws both at home and away - obviously in true prophecy style I'm not at liberty to give dates and years that this will happen but one day it will and you will know I am the one true supreme being

Why not state what you believe regarding God and why?

Belief does not require empirical evidence. Proof destroys belief.

Exactly! It didn't mention them, so how were they going to be able to self-fulfil a prophecy if they didn't know anything about it?!!

 

I

did

not

say

they

would

fufill

self

prophecy

 

I didn't even mention them. When talking about fulfilling self prophecy I was talking about Jews wanting to create Israel because of what it said in their own Holy Book. There is no prophecy regarding Russia, Iran and Turkey!

Belief does not require empirical evidence. Proof destroys belief.

 

Really?

 

What about the belief that the Earth rotates around the Sun, rather than the other way round - surely proof has enhanced that belief?

...is that one day Saints will win at home,..

That's where you lose all credibility.

Really?

 

What about the belief that the Earth rotates around the Sun, rather than the other way round - surely proof has enhanced that belief?

That is no longer belief, the proof made it established fact.

That's where you lose all credibility.

 

You non-believers, you wait, one day.....

I

did

not

say

they

would

fufill

self

prophecy

 

I didn't even mention them. When talking about fulfilling self prophecy I was talking about Jews wanting to create Israel because of what it said in their own Holy Book. There is no prophecy regarding Russia, Iran and Turkey!

 

You did say that "1) Do you know what a 'self fulfilling prophecy' means? Because if someone is aware of an old prophecy and then people are actively working towards fulfilling it... it isn't in the slightest remarkable"

 

The prophecy that Raging Bull directly referenced was one about Israel being restored to Israel, and the countries from the north, ie Russia, surrounding the northern border.

 

Secondly are you seriously telling us that the world decided to put Israel back in Israel simply because they were trying to fulfil a prophecy? Mental.

Yet again you are reading things that aren't there!

 

You did say that "1) Do you know what a 'self fulfilling prophecy' means? Because if someone is aware of an old prophecy and then people are actively working towards fulfilling it... it isn't in the slightest remarkable"

 

Yep, no God required to create a country it is a man made process to create a country. Solely down to the effort of people wanting to create Israel. What do you think God did to help?

 

The prophecy that Raging Bull directly referenced was one about Israel being restored to Israel, and the countries from the north, ie Russia, surrounding the northern border.

 

The self fulfilling part I was talking about people working towards making Israel a country.

 

The countries to the north is not what I was talking about. If the predictions came from God there is no need for them to be so vague. No years mentioned, no leaders mention... no countries mentioned. An impressive prophecy would mention Putin by name.

 

Secondly are you seriously telling us that the world decided to put Israel back in Israel simply because they were trying to fulfil a prophecy? Mental.

 

In part that was the reason... yes

 

At no point did I say it was the sole reason

Yet again you are reading things that aren't there!

 

 

 

Yep, no God required to create a country it is a man made process to create a country. Solely down to the effort of people wanting to create Israel. What do you think God did to help?

 

 

 

The self fulfilling part I was talking about people working towards making Israel a country.

 

The countries to the north is not what I was talking about. If the predictions came from God there is no need for them to be so vague. No years mentioned, no leaders mention... no countries mentioned. An impressive prophecy would mention Putin by name.

 

 

 

In part that was the reason... yes

 

At no point did I say it was the sole reason

 

Lost it mate. First celebrating Christmas now some mental logic about the world being completely disrupted because they wanted to fulfil a prophecy on purpose, not all of it of course, just some of it.

Lets have some fun Turkish...

 

Tell us what you believe concerning God and why you believe it

1) The prophecy does not mention Iran, Russia or Turkey.

 

Actually, it does mention Russia & Turkey. But I didn't think for a second you'd get it...

 

Anyway, here's a break down for you along with a quick intro, enjoy

 

Tubal and Meshech are mentioned together in Ezekiel 38:2. They were the 5th and 6th sons of Japheth, the son of Noah (Genesis 10:2). Some believe these people intermarried and became known as Magog, the dominant tribe. There are two main theories for their location: (1) RUSSIA and (2) TURKEY. Whichever it is does not change the overall picture as both are identified by the other names in Ezekiel.

 

(1) Regarding Meshech and Tubal, some assign a Russian identification, connecting these 2 nations with the modern Russian cities of Moscow and Tobolsk. Meshech - Moscow, and Tubal - Tobolsk. The first view became well known through the Scofield Study Bible: “That the primary reference is to the Northern powers headed by Russia, all agree. The reference to Meshech and Tubal (Moscow and Tobolsk) is a clear mark of identification.” Thus the name Moscow derives from the tribal name Meshech, and Tobolsk, the name of the principal state, from Tubal. This view is partly based on the similarity of sound in these names and their close proximity to Rosh (Russia). If this is so, the names Meshech and Tubal, point directly to Russia, being identified with Moscow, the capital of modern Russia, and Tobolsk in Asiatic Russia. Modern Tobolsk was founded in 1587 in western Siberia, and from there the Cossacks rode eastward to open up all of Siberia to Russian domination. Meshech and Tubal would then be names standing for Russia in Europe and Asia.

Actually, it does mention Russia & Turkey. But I didn't think for a second you'd get it...

 

Anyway, here's a break down for you along with a quick intro, enjoy

 

Tubal and Meshech are mentioned together in Ezekiel 38:2. They were the 5th and 6th sons of Japheth, the son of Noah (Genesis 10:2). Some believe these people intermarried and became known as Magog, the dominant tribe. There are two main theories for their location: (1) RUSSIA and (2) TURKEY. Whichever it is does not change the overall picture as both are identified by the other names in Ezekiel.

 

(1) Regarding Meshech and Tubal, some assign a Russian identification, connecting these 2 nations with the modern Russian cities of Moscow and Tobolsk. Meshech - Moscow, and Tubal - Tobolsk. The first view became well known through the Scofield Study Bible: “That the primary reference is to the Northern powers headed by Russia, all agree. The reference to Meshech and Tubal (Moscow and Tobolsk) is a clear mark of identification.” Thus the name Moscow derives from the tribal name Meshech, and Tobolsk, the name of the principal state, from Tubal. This view is partly based on the similarity of sound in these names and their close proximity to Rosh (Russia). If this is so, the names Meshech and Tubal, point directly to Russia, being identified with Moscow, the capital of modern Russia, and Tobolsk in Asiatic Russia. Modern Tobolsk was founded in 1587 in western Siberia, and from there the Cossacks rode eastward to open up all of Siberia to Russian domination. Meshech and Tubal would then be names standing for Russia in Europe and Asia.

 

Well that’s told him

 

How did you come to such a knowledge?

Actually, it does mention Russia & Turkey. But I didn't think for a second you'd get it...

 

1) It does not mention them. This is supposed to be a prophecy from God, if God is all knowing then the prophecy would give things like years, names of leaders Vladimir Putin, Hassan Rouhani etc. Instead it is extremely vague and gives no time frame. You are shoe-horning a vague statement in an old book to fit the 21st century. As I've said before... your bar for acceptable levels of evidence is extremely low. It is gullibility that you can't see due to indoctrination and brainwashing.

 

2) You mention Noah... do you believe the Noah flood story literally happened word for word as it is in the Bible?

Well that’s told him

 

How did you come to such a knowledge?

 

Maybe he is a fan of Kent Hovind

Actually, it does mention Russia & Turkey. But I didn't think for a second you'd get it...

 

Are there any prophecies about the good ol' USofA - you know, the country that became one of the dominant super powers in the world?

 

That would be impressive wouldn't it to mention in a prophecy a country that wasn't even discovered until about 1500 years after the alleged birth of Christ?

 

After all, the prophecy states how Israel became / becomes a large stockpiler of modern weapons - with enormous help from the US - so surely they get a mention in there somewhere?

Well that’s told him

 

How did you come to such a knowledge?

 

After years of being an utter helmet (violence, all or nothing living etc, hence the name) a few things happened in my personal life that changed my view on things a few years ago.

 

When I looked into the word of God (especially prophecy) and married it up to world events it was clear that it's real and should be taken seriously. I'm also 1 of those guys that soaks in as much info as possible when their interested, but bugger all when not interested. Hence this sticks.

 

**puts on tin hat ready for the insults from the atheists**

1) It does not mention them. This is supposed to be a prophecy from God, if God is all knowing then the prophecy would give things like years, names of leaders Vladimir Putin, Hassan Rouhani etc. Instead it is extremely vague and gives no time frame. You are shoe-horning a vague statement in an old book to fit the 21st century. As I've said before... your bar for acceptable levels of evidence is extremely low. It is gullibility that you can't see due to indoctrination and brainwashing.

 

2) You mention Noah... do you believe the Noah flood story literally happened word for word as it is in the Bible?

 

 

 

1. OK, it's up to you (as I've always said) whether or not you believe those names are traslations for the names they're known by today, whatever.

 

Prophecy is to give warning of future events, not ultimate details. Because lets face it, with the way you are, even if it did mention VP then you'd be calling BS because it didn't name the anti aircraft weapons used or what side the soldiers dress.

 

2. Why do you want to know this?

Are there any prophecies about the good ol' USofA - you know, the country that became one of the dominant super powers in the world?

 

That would be impressive wouldn't it to mention in a prophecy a country that wasn't even discovered until about 1500 years after the alleged birth of Christ?

 

After all, the prophecy states how Israel became / becomes a large stockpiler of modern weapons - with enormous help from the US - so surely they get a mention in there somewhere?

 

Well this is true, but best guesses are that 1 day they won't be all that.

After years of being an utter helmet (violence, all or nothing living etc, hence the name) a few things happened in my personal life that changed my view on things a few years ago.

 

When I looked into the word of God (especially prophecy) and married it up to world events it was clear that it's real and should be taken seriously. I'm also 1 of those guys that soaks in as much info as possible when their interested, but bugger all when not interested. Hence this sticks.

 

**puts on tin hat ready for the insults from the atheists**

I'm not an atheist and I think you're insane.

I'm not an atheist and I think you're insane.

 

Why?

Why?

Because "marrying up to world events" just sounds like a David icke conspiracy theory. There are no specifics from prophecies in the bible, you can twist things around to fit things to make it look like it's some sort of prophecy rather like flat earthers, 9/11 truthers or fake moon landing nuts, but to a neutral observer you just sound a bit weird. How can you be sure that this so called prophecy was talking about the 20th and 21st century? What if you got it wrong and they are actually talking about events 300 years from now? What gives you the certainty that this stuff written down in a form of Chinese whispers is actually some miraculous divine prophecy from, hundreds of years ago?

Because "marrying up to world events" just sounds like a David icke conspiracy theory. There are no specifics from prophecies in the bible, you can twist things around to fit things to make it look like it's some sort of prophecy rather like flat earthers, 9/11 truthers or fake moon landing nuts, but to a neutral observer you just sound a bit weird. How can you be sure that this so called prophecy was talking about the 20th and 21st century? What if you got it wrong and they are actually talking about events 300 years from now? What gives you the certainty that this stuff written down in a form of Chinese whispers is actually some miraculous divine prophecy from, hundreds of years ago?

 

Ok, whatever.