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Thread: Christmas/Blasphemy/Duck Rape/Toasters

  1. #801

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    Someone is on lockdown and desperate for some attention

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Does that mean it is now irrelevant?
    The fact most people have tomorrow and Monday off work suggests not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    Someone is on lockdown and desperate for some attention
    Boris?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    The fact most people have tomorrow and Monday off work suggests not.
    They are legally bank holidays in the UK, not religious holidays. The law protects workers rights to have time off on those days - or time off in lieu - and they have been classed as bank holidays since 1871.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    They are legally bank holidays in the UK, not religious holidays. The law protects workers rights to have time off on those days - or time off in lieu - and they have been classed as bank holidays since 1871.
    Just coincidence that 4 of our 8 legal bank holidays are exactly the same date as the most important dates in the Christian calendar then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Just coincidence that 4 of our 8 legal bank holidays are exactly the same date as the most important dates in the Christian calendar then?
    In the same way that Christian festivals were deliberately positioned to replace pre-Christian religious dates. Why not use the date that is already taken and observed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Just coincidence that 4 of our 8 legal bank holidays are exactly the same date as the most important dates in the Christian calendar then?
    Pagan calendar?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Guardian
    All the fun things about Easter are pagan. Bunnies are a leftover from the pagan festival of Eostre, a great northern goddess whose symbol was a rabbit or hare. Exchange of eggs is an ancient custom, celebrated by many cultures. Hot cross buns are very ancient too. In the Old Testament we see the Israelites baking sweet buns for an idol, and religious leaders trying to put a stop to it. The early church clergy also tried to put a stop to sacred cakes being baked at Easter. In the end, in the face of defiant cake-baking pagan women, they gave up and blessed the cake instead.

    Easter is essentially a pagan festival which is celebrated with cards, gifts and novelty Easter products, because it's fun and the ancient symbolism still works. It's always struck me that the power of nature and the longer days are often most felt in modern towns and cities, where we set off to work without putting on our car headlights and when our alarm clock goes off in the mornings, the streetlights outside are not still on because of the darkness.

    What better way to celebrate, than to bite the head off the bunny goddess, go to a "sunrise service", get yourself a sticky-footed fluffy chick and stick it on your TV, whilst helping yourself to a hefty slice of pagan simnel cake? Happy Easter everyone!
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...agan-symbolism

    Just a coincidence that :

    Quote Originally Posted by Same Guardian Article
    The Sumerian goddess Inanna, or Ishtar, was hung naked on a stake, and was subsequently resurrected and ascended from the underworld. One of the oldest resurrection myths is Egyptian Horus. Born on 25 December, Horus and his damaged eye became symbols of life and rebirth. Mithras was born on what we now call Christmas day, and his followers celebrated the spring equinox. Even as late as the 4th century AD, the sol invictus, associated with Mithras, was the last great pagan cult the church had to overcome. Dionysus was a divine child, resurrected by his grandmother. Dionysus also brought his mum, Semele, back to life.

    In an ironic twist, the Cybele cult flourished on today's Vatican Hill. Cybele's lover Attis, was born of a virgin, died and was reborn annually. This spring festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday, rising to a crescendo after three days, in rejoicing over the resurrection. There was violent conflict on Vatican Hill in the early days of Christianity between the Jesus worshippers and pagans who quarrelled over whose God was the true, and whose the imitation. What is interesting to note here is that in the ancient world, wherever you had popular resurrected god myths, Christianity found lots of converts. So, eventually Christianity came to an accommodation with the pagan Spring festival. Although we see no celebration of Easter in the New Testament, early church fathers celebrated it, and today many churches are offering "sunrise services" at Easter – an obvious pagan solar celebration. The date of Easter is not fixed, but instead is governed by the phases of the moon – how pagan is that?
    ?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    In the same way that Christian festivals were deliberately positioned to replace pre-Christian religious dates.
    So the legal bank holidays are Christian festivals, which means however much anyone pretends it’s not the case, Christianity still has a huge relevance today, just because some don’t like it doesn’t make it untrue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Pagan calendar?



    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...agan-symbolism

    Just a coincidence that :

    ?????
    Good posts, very valid points. A lot of people know that Christmas was on that date due to the Roman festival of saturnalia, as Easter is as your rightly point out. So did you pull your children out of school nativity plays when they were kids? Do you ban them from singing Christmas carols? Do you tell little ones the sorry of mary and Jesus and the three wise men is simply not true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    So the legal bank holidays are Christian festivals,
    No, they are Pagan festival dates that Christianity hijacked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    No, they are Pagan festival dates that Christianity hijacked.
    Yes I know, what’s your point? So why when bank holidays weee made legal didn’t they just chose a random day? Why chose Christmas and Easter which as you say as Christian festivals in this era, regardless of their origins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Good posts, very valid points. A lot of people know that Christmas was on that date due to the Roman festival of saturnalia, as Easter is as your rightly point out. So did you pull your children out of school nativity plays when they were kids? Do you ban them from singing Christmas carols? Do you tell little ones the sorry of mary and Jesus and the three wise men is simply not true?
    No, I gave them ALL the facts and allowed them to make their own minds up - it tends to only be the highly religious families that engage in brain washing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    No, I gave them ALL the facts and allowed them to make their own minds up - it tends to only be the highly religious families that engage in brain washing
    A very balanced way to explain. The very fact they were taught it at school says it’s relevant though, dont you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Yes I know, what’s your point? So why when bank holidays weee made legal didn’t they just chose a random day? Why chose Christmas and Easter which as you say as Christian festivals in this era, regardless of their origins?
    Probably because in 1871 when they were legally declared as bank holidays, religion played an important part in people's lives, owing to the fact that science hadn't yet developed sufficiently to debunk most of the myths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    A very balanced way to explain. The very fact they were taught it at school says it’s relevant though, dont you think?
    No. It says the archaic laws of our country require it to be taught - in all fairness, it is no longer about Jesus, Mary and the wise men and tends to be more balanced covering all the major religions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Probably because in 1871 when they were legally declared as bank holidays, religion played an important part in people's lives, owing to the fact that science hadn't yet developed sufficiently to debunk most of the myths.
    Science doesn’t stop people wanting to be married in churches, funerals in churches, christened, taught it at school etc, to say it’s not relevant is simply not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Science doesn’t stop people wanting to be married in churches, funerals in churches, christened, taught it at school etc, to say it’s not relevant is simply not true.
    To insist that it is relevant for everyone is simply not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    No. It says the archaic laws of our country require it to be taught - in all fairness, it is no longer about Jesus, Mary and the wise men and tends to be more balanced covering all the major religions.
    Why don’t we have a bank holiday on Ramadan, Yom Kippur, Maghi etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    To insist that it is relevant for everyone is simply not true.
    I didn’t say it was for everyone. But if you’ve ever been to a wedding or funeral in a church, listened or sung a hymn, heard a prayer, or spoken to kids about it, it is,

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    The bank holidays thing is just convenience as much as anything else. Ties in nicely with kids holidays and having nice regular 6 week terms or whatever, so there’s no need to change it.

    Same with church weddings really, it’s all just tradition for the sake of tradition. Try telling most brides they can’t wear white because they’ve sh*gged half the village cricket team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Same with church weddings really, it’s all just tradition for the sake of tradition. Try telling most brides they can’t wear white because they’ve sh*gged half the village cricket team.
    What percentage of couples getting married in a church have regularly attended for the previous 12 months ? I suspect it would struggle to reach double figures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    What percentage of couples getting married in a church have regularly attended for the previous 12 months ? I suspect it would struggle to reach double figures.
    Why do they want to get married in a church?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Why do they want to get married in a church?
    Tradition - as Lighthouse said. It's also part of the big 'fairy tale' they've dreamed about for years and usually nothing to do with religion. Having said that, more and more people are shunning church weddings in favour of far more accomodating venues, especially since the church lost its monopoly on weddings and more civil licences were issued.

    Quote Originally Posted by Church times
    FOR the first time ever, fewer than one quarter of all marriages in England and Wales were religious ceremonies, statistics from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show.

    They accounted for 24 per cent of marriages in 2016, falling by nearly a half (48 per cent) from two decades ago. In the same period of time, the number of all marriages fell by 28 per cent.
    https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articl...in-two-decades

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    I didn’t say it was for everyone. But if you’ve ever been to a wedding or funeral in a church, listened or sung a hymn, heard a prayer, or spoken to kids about it, it is,
    So basically you're saying that religion is relevant if you are in a church! Not exactly a stunning revelation!

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    Of all the pointless "debates" on this site, this is the most pointless.

    Belief in an intangible deity is a personal thing. That's the nature of a belief. It doesn't have to be justified or explained. It has nothing or do with anyone other than the person who holds that belief. Sure, there's no proof in the existence of the deity, its a belief.

    Religion, on an organised basis is somewhat different. It's a subscription to a deity of someone elses choosing, and often a belief in a scripture and sometimes an apparent prophet. If someone chooses to believe that stuff, that's a matter for them.

    It's possible to believe in a God that's not inposed by religion or a scripture. Millions do. It's a matter for them.

    If people like the congregation and support of a church, temple, mosque, whatever where they speak to what they believe is their God, then its a matter for them.

    All opinions contrary to the above come from people who believe that they have a right to express an opinion on others personal beliefs, such beliefs having nothing to do with them and no impact upon them. That attitude says more about those people, than the people or organisations they criticise.

    Live and let live people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Of all the pointless "debates" on this site, this is the most pointless.

    Belief in an intangible deity is a personal thing. That's the nature of a belief. It doesn't have to be justified or explained. It has nothing or do with anyone other than the person who holds that belief. Sure, there's no proof in the existence of the deity, its a belief.

    Religion, on an organised basis is somewhat different. It's a subscription to a deity of someone elses choosing, and often a belief in a scripture and sometimes an apparent prophet. If someone chooses to believe that stuff, that's a matter for them.

    It's possible to believe in a God that's not inposed by religion or a scripture. Millions do. It's a matter for them.

    If people like the congregation and support of a church, temple, mosque, whatever where they speak to what they believe is their God, then its a matter for them.

    All opinions contrary to the above come from people who believe that they have a right to express an opinion on others personal beliefs, such beliefs having nothing to do with them and no impact upon them. That attitude says more about those people, than the people or organisations they criticise.

    Live and let live people.
    It should come as no surprise that the person who does understand this is a computer games freak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    So basically you're saying that religion is relevant if you are in a church! Not exactly a stunning revelation!
    So it is relevant then. Thanks for confirming

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    It should come as no surprise that the person who doesnt understand this is a computer games freak
    Typo again FFS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    It should come as no surprise that the person who does understand this is a computer games freak
    Yep. I'm still waiting for him to explain how my elderly neighbour praying for others not to suffer impacts upon him. Apparently it does somehow, and all of us.

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    I would like to see video footage of him arguing with St Peter at the gates quoting Leviticus verses

    And interesting interview yesterday with a recovered victim who said it brought great comfort to him knowing people were praying for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    I would like to see video footage of him arguing with St Peter at the gates quoting Leviticus verses

    And interesting interview yesterday with a recovered victim who said it brought great comfort to him knowing people were praying for him.
    Amen (pun intended).

    If prayer to an intangible deity brings and gives comfort in real life, I struggle to understand how any person objects to it, particularly where it has zero impact on them. I suppose control freaks operate in a variety of ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Amen (pun intended).

    If prayer to an intangible deity brings and gives comfort in real life, I struggle to understand how any person objects to it, particularly where it has zero impact on them. I suppose control freaks operate in a variety of ways.
    Indeed, if a Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist were praying for me I would be grateful, not challenging them on logic of their beliefs

    I imagine the churches might be little fuller this Easter if services took place as more people reflecting on life meaning and their own mortality

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Of all the pointless "debates" on this site, this is the most pointless.

    Belief in an intangible deity is a personal thing. That's the nature of a belief. It doesn't have to be justified or explained. It has nothing or do with anyone other than the person who holds that belief. Sure, there's no proof in the existence of the deity, its a belief.

    Religion, on an organised basis is somewhat different. It's a subscription to a deity of someone elses choosing, and often a belief in a scripture and sometimes an apparent prophet. If someone chooses to believe that stuff, that's a matter for them.

    It's possible to believe in a God that's not inposed by religion or a scripture. Millions do. It's a matter for them.

    If people like the congregation and support of a church, temple, mosque, whatever where they speak to what they believe is their God, then its a matter for them.

    All opinions contrary to the above come from people who believe that they have a right to express an opinion on others personal beliefs, such beliefs having nothing to do with them and no impact upon them. That attitude says more about those people, than the people or organisations they criticise.

    Live and let live people.
    Largely agree except the last sentence is where it all comes a bit loose. So many out there aren't letting live when it comes to other people's beliefs and choices conflicting with their own religious beliefs.

    Organised religion to me is like a company sending big, burly men round to people's houses and telling them they need to pay the oxygen tax. Sure, you need oxygen to live but they've just proclaimed themselves the provider without any actual evidence backing that up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Largely agree except the last sentence is where it all comes a bit loose. So many out there aren't letting live when it comes to other people's beliefs and choices conflicting with their own religious beliefs.

    Organised religion to me is like a company sending big, burly men round to people's houses and telling them they need to pay the oxygen tax. Sure, you need oxygen to live but they've just proclaimed themselves the provider without any actual evidence backing that up.
    First part. What you highlight is the opposite of live and let live. You highlight intolerance and an unwillingness to accept and respect other people's right to their own beliefs. Instead, the likes of MLG feel the need to challenge and shout down other people's beliefs. That's intolerance, and disrespect of the views of others - nobody is asking him to accept or agree with others, but there's absolutely no need for his challenge and criticism. Live and let live - believe in what you believe in (or don't) and leave others to their own beliefs.

    Second part. Noted. I don't subscribe to any organised religion and personally find large chunks of the bible far fetched. However, other people believing that stuff has no impact on me, and if it helps them, then good luck to them.
    Last edited by egg; 10-04-2020 at 11:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post

    Second part. Noted. I don't subscribe to any organised religion and personally find large chunks of the bible far fetched. However, other people believing that stuff has no impact on me, and if it helps them, then good luck to them.
    Would you still have the same opinion if a radicalised nutter blew themselves and members of your family up in the name of their one true God - genuine question as clearly their 'belief' would have an impact on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    Happy Holidays!

    Passover... the time god killed innocent first born Egyptian babies

    Easter... the time god sacrificed himself, to himself to act as a loophole to rules he created and knew would be broken

    Have you read the haggadah pal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    First part. What you highlight is the opposite of live and let live. You highlight intolerance and an unwillingness to accept and respect other people's right to their own beliefs. Instead, the likes of MLG feel the need to challenge and shout down other people's beliefs. That's intolerance, and disrespect of the views of others - nobody is asking him to accept or agree with others, but there's absolutely no need for his challenge and criticism. Live and let live - believe in what you believe in (or don't) and leave others to their own beliefs.

    Second part. Noted. I don't subscribe to any organised religion and personally find large chunks of the bible far fetched. However, other people believing that stuff has no impact on me, and if it helps them, then good luck to them.
    I completely agree with live and let live, on the assumption that it is reciprocated. As a straight, white male, living in the UK I’m lucky enough that this is the case (aside from the 1/100,000 chance or whatever of being stabbed/blown up by some fanatical nutcase). Other people perhaps aren’t so lucky, like the Pakistan girl who was shot by the Taliban for wanting a basic education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Would you still have the same opinion if a radicalised nutter blew themselves and members of your family up in the name of their one true God - genuine question as clearly their 'belief' would have an impact on you.
    Nobody should ever condone acts of violence. I don't condone it in the apparent name of religion any more than I do t condone violence for any other reason.

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    I know little about what Jewish people believe. What I do know is that I attended a bat mitzvah at a rather Conservative synagogue last year for the daughter of my wife's work colleague. I'm never met a more friendly and welcoming group of people who had respect for each other and who were so community minded. No idea if it's the religious part that does that but I left with a very high opinion of whatever they were doing. Wonderful people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Nobody should ever condone acts of violence. I don't condone it in the apparent name of religion any more than I do t condone violence for any other reason.
    And yet many religions do condone violence....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    And yet many religions do condone violence....
    Don't confuse extreme loons with the general modern message of religion. Because some individuals choose to believe and implement extreme / violent views does not render that religion a violent one. The vicar in my local c of e Church would not advocate or promote violence, but that doesn't mean that some nutter of the same faith could walk into a shopping centre with an AK47 based on his own interpretation of the words in the testaments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    And yet many religions do condone violence....
    2 other points.

    1. You fuse together prayer / belief in a god or deity / organised religion. That's wrong. See 2.

    2. Are you suggesting that because of your perception (which I don't accept is how any words on scriptures should be interpreted in a modern civilised world) that its OK to demonstrate the MLG type intolerance of other peoples belief in a) the power of prayer for them and/or others. B) their belief in a god (but not necessarily a religion), and c) a religion that they see and practice as non violent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Don't confuse extreme loons with the general modern message of religion. Because some individuals choose to believe and implement extreme / violent views does not render that religion a violent one. The vicar in my local c of e Church would not advocate or promote violence, but that doesn't mean that some nutter of the same faith could walk into a shopping centre with an AK47 based on his own interpretation of the words in the testaments.
    The problem is you don't have the loons without a solid base of moderates. I see it as kind of a pyramid, with the wide base on casual believers at the bottom. The further you go up, the fewer people there are but the stronger their beliefs become.

    As an example, you don't get ISIS without a solid base of countries imposing strict Islamic law. Likewise in America, you wouldn't have the KKK without the bible belt Southern states. The extremists don't just pop up out of nowhere, you need that strong population of 'moderates' supporting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    The problem is you don't have the loons without a solid base of moderates. I see it as kind of a pyramid, with the wide base on casual believers at the bottom. The further you go up, the fewer people there are but the stronger their beliefs become.

    As an example, you don't get ISIS without a solid base of countries imposing strict Islamic law. Likewise in America, you wouldn't have the KKK without the bible belt Southern states. The extremists don't just pop up out of nowhere, you need that strong population of 'moderates' supporting it.
    I get that. What do you suggest? Ban prayer for people who have no affiliation with an organised religion, and organised religion,, because some extremists in organised religion act like loons?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    The problem is you don't have the loons without a solid base of moderates. I see it as kind of a pyramid, with the wide base on casual believers at the bottom. The further you go up, the fewer people there are but the stronger their beliefs become.

    As an example, you don't get ISIS without a solid base of countries imposing strict Islamic law. Likewise in America, you wouldn't have the KKK without the bible belt Southern states. The extremists don't just pop up out of nowhere, you need that strong population of 'moderates' supporting it.
    But that's like saying that some parents abuse their children so that they can be amazing at the piano so we should ban learning music. There's loads of examples of people taking things to extremes it's not just religion.

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    Welcome to America (especially the bit I just moved to) and you will see exactly why this can be a problem. It is not about people live and let live its about imposing one groups will on all, specifically a right wing nationalist version of Christianity where anyone who deviates is evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Force View Post
    Welcome to America (especially the bit I just moved to) and you will see exactly why this can be a problem. It is not about people live and let live its about imposing one groups will on all, specifically a right wing nationalist version of Christianity where anyone who deviates is evil.
    What's the solution? Ban prayer or a belief in God because some religious practices are at the extremes? If so, perhaps we should ban democracy cos the elcted Israeli government kill and mistreat Palestinians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Force View Post
    Welcome to America (especially the bit I just moved to) and you will see exactly why this can be a problem. It is not about people live and let live its about imposing one groups will on all, specifically a right wing nationalist version of Christianity where anyone who deviates is evil.
    But that's literally the opposite of what people are saying they agree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    I get that. What do you suggest? Ban prayer for people who have no affiliation with an organised religion, and organised religion,, because some extremists in organised religion act like loons?
    TBH I’m not suggesting anything. Organised religion is here to stay and I’m willing to accept that. What I don’t really agree with is when something unpleasant happens and the moderates claim innocence and deny any responsibility or involvement. There is a collective responsibility; if you attend a Christian church for example, you might well do it with the best of intentions but assuming you make regular donations, might be helping finance boarding schools where young boys are sexually abused. At the very least you’re spreading a culture, a belief amongst the herd that your given religion is absolute. Others being brought up into that culture will never know another way and will never challenge their beliefs, that’s how fanaticism and indoctrination is bred.

    In short, I think it’s wrong but I tolerate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    But that's like saying that some parents abuse their children so that they can be amazing at the piano so we should ban learning music. There's loads of examples of people taking things to extremes it's not just religion.
    The difference being there is no scripture instructing pianist to abuse there children. No commonly held belief that, ‘if a child shalt play an A flat instead of a G, he shall surely be stoned until dead.’ That’s simply an example of an individual committing child abuse, which could equally be applied to homework, playing the bassoon, ballet or anything else.

    If you had used those American teen beauty pageants as an example, I’d have been more inclined to agree with you. There you have a commonly agreed ideal of skinny is beautiful and an institutional culture of weight loss. That then leads into extremism and problems with unhealthy self image etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    What's the solution? Ban prayer or a belief in God because some religious practices are at the extremes? If so, perhaps we should ban democracy cos the elcted Israeli government kill and mistreat Palestinians?
    Well they had this idea about freedom of religion and a separation of church and state, the problem seems to be an ascendant minority group wishes to ignore the constitution and these ideas and use state policies to impose their particular type of religion on all. Freedom of religion must also include freedom from religion. Pray all you want in your own spaces the problem is when it starts creeping into schools, or other public spaces which precludes other of a different perspective from being welcomed or being allowed to take part. Say for example the football coach for a school prays before games with the team but one or two don't want to join in, then those players do not get to play. This is an issue largely irrelevant in the UK because apathy has basically won and religious adherence is quite low. But to be an atheist in this area is seen as basically satan worship, rather than an intellectual choice.

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