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Thread: How we fans stop VAR forever?

  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Munster View Post
    I can see in the not too distant future that a computer would be used to analyse the video and give an offside verdict with 99.9% accuracy, all within 10 seconds.

    The only downside is when it's implemented poor old Whitey Grandad's head would explode!
    Once they get computers doing it, by analyzing the players' movements they will be able to predict an offside a few seconds in advance.

  2. #202

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    I have few issues with VAR.
    I'd just like some laws of the game tidied up, and most importantly, competent independent people operating the system.
    Asking a ref to judge whether his mate has made a mistake, is a ridiculous concept.
    It needs to be sold to refs as an assistant, not a jury.
    See rugby.

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyboy View Post
    I have few issues with VAR.
    I'd just like some laws of the game tidied up, and most importantly, competent independent people operating the system.
    Asking a ref to judge whether his mate has made a mistake, is a ridiculous concept.
    It needs to be sold to refs as an assistant, not a jury.
    See rugby.
    At the moment itís overruling and therefore undermining the official in charge of the game. Yesterdayís downgrading of a red card for a West Ham is a prime example. That tackle was far worse than Bertrandís against Leicester yet his wasnít even given as a foul at the time.

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    Just think back, how many great goals & magic moments would have been taken away from us if VAR had been around? Get rid now

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by davefoggy View Post
    Just think back, how many great goals & magic moments would have been taken away from us if VAR had been around? Get rid now
    We may have won the league cup a couple of years ago

  6. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    We may have won the league cup a couple of years ago
    That’s a fallacy. We might have scored a bit earlier but the rest of the game would have been different.

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    That’s a fallacy. We might have scored a bit earlier but the rest of the game would have been different.
    True. And we may have won!

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    Can you change the VAR rules without changing the laws of the game?

    For example, could we at least say that those looking at VAR should only look at a player's feet not whether his head or armpit is offside?

    Might it be a good idea to change the laws anyway - only your feet count for offside, not whether you're leaning forward and your knee is 5mm offside?

    I know this doesn't solve all of the VAR frustration, but it might solve some of it.

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintBobby View Post
    Can you change the VAR rules without changing the laws of the game?

    For example, could we at least say that those looking at VAR should only look at a player's feet not whether his head or armpit is offside?

    Might it be a good idea to change the laws anyway - only your feet count for offside, not whether you're leaning forward and your knee is 5mm offside?

    I know this doesn't solve all of the VAR frustration, but it might solve some of it.
    I think the powers that be need to say what VAR is acually for, it was my understanding that it would only be used for clear and obvious mistakes by the ref and linesmen. To me the VAR ref saying after 2 mins and various angles and lines drawn on the screen that a players toe was offside by 2mm or so is not clear and you would not expect a ref or linsman to see it in normal game time - if the VAR team cant decide after 15seconds then the original decision should stand. This should be for evey decision not just off sides.

    Its seems to me, especially for off sides that VAR is actually refering the game and that is something i thought it was not brought in to do.

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by IFHP View Post
    I think the powers that be need to say what VAR is acually for, it was my understanding that it would only be used for clear and obvious mistakes by the ref and linesmen. To me the VAR ref saying after 2 mins and various angles and lines drawn on the screen that a players toe was offside by 2mm or so is not clear and you would not expect a ref or linsman to see it in normal game time - if the VAR team cant decide after 15seconds then the original decision should stand. This should be for evey decision not just off sides.

    Its seems to me, especially for off sides that VAR is actually refering the game and that is something i thought it was not brought in to do.
    Personally I want the correct decisions. I don't want my team losing valuable points becuase a ref or linesmen misses something. The delays are a little annoying (as is celebrating a goal that doesn't stand) but it's no worse than a delay for an injury and I'm willing to accept it if it means the game isn't decided by a goal that shouldn't have been.

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  11. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Personally I want the correct decisions. I don't want my team losing valuable points becuase a ref or linesmen misses something. The delays are a little annoying (as is celebrating a goal that doesn't stand) but it's no worse than a delay for an injury and I'm willing to accept it if it means the game isn't decided by a goal that shouldn't have been.

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    Absolutely. If the pre-VAR incorrect decisions had been evenly distributed, then they would have been tolerable but they weren't. They put us at a disadvantage, which has now been removed. It's the same for everyone now.

  12. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Personally I want the correct decisions. I don't want my team losing valuable points becuase a ref or linesmen misses something. The delays are a little annoying (as is celebrating a goal that doesn't stand) but it's no worse than a delay for an injury and I'm willing to accept it if it means the game isn't decided by a goal that shouldn't have been.

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    So what you are saying is you want VAR to ref the game and take the human factors out. ?

    It’s not what I want but there you go each to their own .

  13. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by IFHP View Post
    So what you are saying is you want VAR to ref the game and take the human factors out. ?

    It’s not what I want but there you go each to their own .
    The human factors determining the results should be the players not the referees.

  14. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    The human factors determining the results should be the players not the referees.
    VAR decisions are still made by referees.

  15. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by IFHP View Post
    So what you are saying is you want VAR to ref the game and take the human factors out. ?

    It’s not what I want but there you go each to their own .
    To a point yes if you can have a clear cut rule that can be a yes or no answer like balls going out of play, offside, the ball crossing the goal line then why not use technology to get those results right? fouls are always going to require a human factor to referee, as is deliberate handball and stopping for injuries. We have VAR because the human factor kept ****ing it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    VAR decisions are still made by referees.
    Exactly that. Its not like goal line technology which is a fact, is instant and a good thing for the game. Nobody has ever had a debate as to if the ball just crossed the line or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    To a point yes if you can have a clear cut rule that can be a yes or no answer like balls going out of play, offside, the ball crossing the goal line then why not use technology to get those results right? fouls are always going to require a human factor to referee, as is deliberate handball and stopping for injuries. We have VAR because the human factor kept ****ing it up.
    This is my argument. If youíre going to have VAR making line decisions, then it needs to make every line decision. Cricket has appeals & Umpireís call, but line decisions are based on fact , with no margin of error. It would be bizarre for cricket to have no balls as umpire call, yet run outs as a binary choice. Yet people appear to want offside subject to a margin of error, or Lino call, but whether itís a pen or free kick as a factual decision.




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  18. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    Absolutely. If the pre-VAR incorrect decisions had been evenly distributed, then they would have been tolerable but they weren't. They put us at a disadvantage, which has now been removed. It's the same for everyone now.
    If only this were true. It's not the same for everyone. Each match is handled differently, and clearly some big teams and Liverpool are getting different treatment. Decision as to whether VAR should check a decision is still not consistent. VAR should be a good thing but the implementation is at fault and the offside law should be changed.

  19. #219

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    I sit in line with where a lot of offsides occur. Most assistant referees are 5 to 10 yards behind play when they make offside decisions so they have to make educated guesses. Typically they get about 70% right. The 30% they get wrong largely pass unnoticed, except by those fans sitting in line, as they don't affect goals scored. Sian Massey-Ellis, who moves up and down the line very quickly and never loses concentration, is one of the few who gets about 90% right. I've also noticed assistant referees raise their flag in reaction to shouts from the crowd. External factors, such as a baying crowd and the possibility of getting post-match criticism from a high profile manager of a big club splashed across the media inevitably have an influence. At St Mary's, the away fans behind the goal at the Northam end ensure that more than 50% of close decisions at that end, including free-kicks, penalties, offsides and red cards, go the way of the away team. There is at least one penalty given against us every season at that end which wouldn't have been given if the incident had occurred at the Chapel end. These are all human errors that VAR is helping to eliminate.

  20. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    I sit in line with where a lot of offsides occur. Most assistant referees are 5 to 10 yards behind play when they make offside decisions so they have to make educated guesses. Typically they get about 70% right. The 30% they get wrong largely pass unnoticed, except by those fans sitting in line, as they don't affect goals scored. Sian Massey-Ellis, who moves up and down the line very quickly and never loses concentration, is one of the few who gets about 90% right. I've also noticed assistant referees raise their flag in reaction to shouts from the crowd. External factors, such as a baying crowd and the possibility of getting post-match criticism from a high profile manager of a big club splashed across the media inevitably have an influence. At St Mary's, the away fans behind the goal at the Northam end ensure that more than 50% of close decisions at that end, including free-kicks, penalties, offsides and red cards, go the way of the away team. There is at least one penalty given against us every season at that end which wouldn't have been given if the incident had occurred at the Chapel end. These are all human errors that VAR is helping to eliminate.
    I like how you're saying the linesman can't be accurate because they aren't exactly in line with play, whilst simultaneously claiming to be an authority on the subject from your fixed position in the stands which happens to be vaguely in line with where offsides sometimes occur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Yet people appear to want offside subject to a margin of error, or Lino call, but whether it’s a pen or free kick as a factual decision.
    You can only have no margin of error with respect to offside if the system itself has no margin of error. Given the frame rate of the feed from which the lines are drawn and identifying when the through ball was played in relation to the attackers position there must be some degree of error, I simply don't believe there isn't.

  22. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic Saint View Post
    I sit in line with where a lot of offsides occur. Most assistant referees are 5 to 10 yards behind play when they make offside decisions so they have to make educated guesses. Typically they get about 70% right. The 30% they get wrong largely pass unnoticed, except by those fans sitting in line, as they don't affect goals scored. Sian Massey-Ellis, who moves up and down the line very quickly and never loses concentration, is one of the few who gets about 90% right. I've also noticed assistant referees raise their flag in reaction to shouts from the crowd. External factors, such as a baying crowd and the possibility of getting post-match criticism from a high profile manager of a big club splashed across the media inevitably have an influence. At St Mary's, the away fans behind the goal at the Northam end ensure that more than 50% of close decisions at that end, including free-kicks, penalties, offsides and red cards, go the way of the away team. There is at least one penalty given against us every season at that end which wouldn't have been given if the incident had occurred at the Chapel end. These are all human errors that VAR is helping to eliminate.
    No, the Assistants are much more accurate that that. Their decisions may not agree with yours, but they are correct.

    They don’t have to keep up with play, they position themselves in line with the second to last defender.

  23. #223

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    Milivojevic was sent off after the ref went to look at the pitch side monitor. Would that have happened if it was in a Premier League game ? Hasn't up to now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Milivojevic was sent off after the ref went to look at the pitch side monitor. Would that have happened if it was in a Premier League game ? Hasn't up to now.
    It can, and should happen. This is the first ref sensible and brave enough to do it.

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  25. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Milivojevic was sent off after the ref went to look at the pitch side monitor. Would that have happened if it was in a Premier League game ? Hasn't up to now.
    Don't know about pitch side monitor but Bertrand was sent of after a retrospective look by VAR in the Leicester game. First time I can remember us conceding a goal and getting a man sent off (that didn't involve a penalty) at the same time.

  26. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    It can, and should happen. This is the first ref sensible and brave enough to do it.

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    I agree. For such matters the onfield referee should have the final decision.

  27. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Don't know about pitch side monitor but Bertrand was sent of after a retrospective look by VAR in the Leicester game. First time I can remember us conceding a goal and getting a man sent off (that didn't involve a penalty) at the same time.
    I think this was the worst VAR decision so far. The ref took no part in the decision. Just the VAR ref deciding to get involved and his view was taken without question.

    I was there and would argue there was no violent intent in the tackle.

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  28. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    It can, and should happen. This is the first ref sensible and brave enough to do it.

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    it isnt the first time, happened two years ago and the FA cup has different rules surrounding VAR (apparently)

  29. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    it isnt the first time, happened two years ago and the FA cup has different rules surrounding VAR (apparently)
    I’ve just had a quick look. Apparently an on field review (OFR) by the referee going to the monitor can only happen on the advice of the remote VAR. That doesn’t seem right to me.

  30. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    Iíve just had a quick look. Apparently an on field review (OFR) by the referee going to the monitor can only happen on the advice of the remote VAR. That doesnít seem right to me.
    That's just ridiculous.


    In effect, this means the VAR ref can overrule the ref on a whim, or (as is happening) incidents are ignored.

    We have to get back to the on-field ref always having the final decision. There's so much wrong with the way it's currently bring used.
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    Last edited by Shroppie; 05-01-2020 at 07:59 PM.

  31. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IFHP View Post
    I think the powers that be need to say what VAR is acually for, it was my understanding that it would only be used for clear and obvious mistakes by the ref and linesmen. To me the VAR ref saying after 2 mins and various angles and lines drawn on the screen that a players toe was offside by 2mm or so is not clear and you would not expect a ref or linsman to see it in normal game time - if the VAR team cant decide after 15seconds then the original decision should stand. This should be for evey decision not just off sides.

    Its seems to me, especially for off sides that VAR is actually refering the game and that is something i thought it was not brought in to do.
    Yeah, agree with this. If the technological margin of error is, say, 1cm then it's ridiculous to say that an image showing a player 0.5cm offside is "clear and obvious".

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    Fifa want the on field referee to use the pitch side monitor, and therefore the on field ref will be the decision maker. For some reason the premier league or the PGMO (donít know which) donít want to follow that protocol, and VAR makes the calls for all Premier league games. The FA are obviously following the protocol for their cup competition.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    That's just ridiculous.


    In effect, this means the VAR ref can overrule the ref on a whim, or (as is happening) incidents are ignored.

    We have to get back to the on-field ref always having the final decision. There's so much wrong with the way it's currently bring used.
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    I prefer the VAR bloke making the decision - he’s the one with the better view, slow mo replays etc. Plus he’s going to be less influenced by screaming fans and moaning players.

    The only issue I have with VAR is the forensic offside analysis, streamline that and it’s fine IMO.

  34. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    .
    Worth reposting as some people still think VAR is accurate for offside. Here the margin of error is estimated to be 13cm.

  35. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Worth reposting as some people still think VAR is accurate for offside. Here the margin of error is estimated to be 13cm.
    Still more accurate than some bloke with, a flag, 15 feet behind play.

  36. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Still more accurate than some bloke with, a flag, 15 feet behind play.
    Exactly. We have not seen a single howler. Just fans getting up tight that marginal offsides are actually given.


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    I wonít be satisfied until they are using analytics to predict offsides before they happen. Itís the only way to speed up the game by giving a free kick for offside before the offence is committed based on the data available.

  38. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Still more accurate than some bloke with, a flag, 15 feet behind play.
    They aren’t behind play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    Exactly. We have not seen a single howler. Just fans getting up tight that marginal offsides are actually given.
    Let's run a scenario, VAR checks a goal for a possible offside. The system draws the lines and shows that the attackers right foot is 1.5mm offside. However, through a combination of the frame rate of the feed from which the lines were drawn, identifying exactly when the through ball was played, and the continued movement of the attacking player between frames, the analysis has an error of plus/minus 2.0mm. Consequently, the player could be 3.5mm offside or 0.5mm onside. Should a goal be given or should it be ruled out?

  40. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Worth reposting as some people still think VAR is accurate for offside. Here the margin of error is estimated to be 13cm.
    Whilst I agree with the margin for error argument, I can't understand why that diagram uses Frame A "Passer has not touched the ball" and Frame B "Passer has already touched the ball."
    Frame B shows ball still in contact with passer's boot. Surely no pass has been made until it has left his boot, so yet another Frame C is required for accurate comparison.

  41. #241

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    There was a reminder of the alternative at the weekend when some of the games were played without using the offside rule at all.
    Norwich scored two with clear offsides - it was like a playground kick-about, jumpers as goalposts.
    Or have officials got used to someone else making the decision and telling them?

  42. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    They arenít behind play.
    So how come this miss so many calls if linesmen where getting it right VAR wouldn't even be a thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trout-Tickler View Post
    Let's run a scenario, VAR checks a goal for a possible offside. The system draws the lines and shows that the attackers right foot is 1.5mm offside. However, through a combination of the frame rate of the feed from which the lines were drawn, identifying exactly when the through ball was played, and the continued movement of the attacking player between frames, the analysis has an error of plus/minus 2.0mm. Consequently, the player could be 3.5mm offside or 0.5mm onside. Should a goal be given or should it be ruled out?
    If the player is offside, he is offside

    What has VAR got very wrong so far?

  44. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyboy View Post
    There was a reminder of the alternative at the weekend when some of the games were played without using the offside rule at all.
    Norwich scored two with clear offsides - it was like a playground kick-about, jumpers as goalposts.
    Or have officials got used to someone else making the decision and telling them?
    No, people seem to have forgotten how many howlers we used to see...let alone generally poor decisions

  45. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    If the player is offside, he is offside
    I think there was a point in the Liv-Eve match last night when a Liverpool player hit the ball against an Everton defender and it went out for a corner. TV replays suggested that the Liverpool player had been in an offside position when receiving the ball, and wasn't flagged, and VAR wasn't interested as it wasn't a goal. If Liverpool had scored from the corner it would have stood.
    I know that this sort of thing always used to happen before VAR, but surely this is the sort of thing it should be correcting, especially as linos seem to be relying on it.

  46. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    If the player is offside, he is offside

    What has VAR got very wrong so far?
    But that's the whole point of the scenario I described above, the system as it stands simply doesn't have the accuracy to rule that he was 100% offside.

    You seem to think that I want VAR to be scrapped, I don't. I just find it absolutely bizarre that people think the system doesn't operate without a margin of error. As I've said before on this thread, there's always some degree of standard deviation with any scientific measurement. Look at scales in the kitchen, when you weigh out 100g if pasta it doesn't weigh exactly 100g, it weighs 100g plus or minus the standard deviation/error of the scales in question. The same is undoubtedly true of VAR. People quite rightly want certainty from VAR regarding offside but you can only get that if the system is accurate enough. Is the tolerance of the system 1 millimetre, 1 centimetre or 1 nanometre? I've never seen anything published with regards to the systems tolerance to what distance it can accurately measure.

  47. #247

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    One answer is to scrap off-sides and penalty kicks

  48. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Worth reposting as some people still think VAR is accurate for offside. Here the margin of error is estimated to be 13cm.
    OK so use a faster frame rate...

  49. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by doddisalegend View Post
    Still more accurate than some bloke with, a flag, 15 feet behind play.
    Yep!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trout-Tickler View Post
    Let's run a scenario, VAR checks a goal for a possible offside. The system draws the lines and shows that the attackers right foot is 1.5mm offside. However, through a combination of the frame rate of the feed from which the lines were drawn, identifying exactly when the through ball was played, and the continued movement of the attacking player between frames, the analysis has an error of plus/minus 2.0mm. Consequently, the player could be 3.5mm offside or 0.5mm onside. Should a goal be given or should it be ruled out?
    Goal should be given - the benefit of doubt should go to the attacker because it cannot be 100% sure of it being offside.

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