Cardiff/Sala - Missing Plane

A minute of reflection before all

next weeks PL games has been called by the EPL.

Hes never even played in the league before. Surely that means we should have one every time a player dies?

They most likely would for any current footballer who dies whilst contracted to a PL club. It’s a pretty rare event.

A very interesting and respectful thread - fascinating hearing the pilot 'ITC's' points of view - thank you for your input.

As a passenger you put your faith entirely in the pilots and the machines. It is impossible stepping into a small plane to know what the pilots's qualifications are (and even then the distinction between professional and private would be unclear - you'd just go on years of flying, perhaps in that type of 'plane). Hindsight is a wonderful thing...single-engined aircraft, history of accidents, private pilot, night, over water... but most of us, I suspect, would have just stepped in as Sala did.

Tragic for all involved - Sala, the pilot, Nantes and Cardiff City - and another reminder to smell the roses.

Yes, like a helicopter at front and a pusher engine. They thought Gerry had turned too steeply, had some fuel cock issues, lost height to about 150 ft and steepened the turn to 90 degrees and went in. There was suspicion that the other policeman who had hardly flown (photographer) panicked and grabbed the stick to avoid toppling over and caused the final spiral. Apparently the bubble cockpit was difficult to cope with.

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A minute of reflection before all

next weeks PL games has been called by the EPL.

Hes never even played in the league before. Surely that means we should have one every time a player dies?

Unexpectedly in a very tragic accident! Yes

what about fans?

BBC with more details about how the flight was arranged;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47013474

They most likely would for any current footballer who dies whilst contracted to a PL club. It’s a pretty rare event.

BBC with more details about how the flight was arranged;

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47013474

That looks like a pretty damning report. The McKays obviously hired the plane and crew (Did they own it?) They are mixed up in their terms. A commercial flight is confused as private and commercial. The proper terminology is scheduled and chartered. Although the passenger didn't, pay somebody did. A single engine aircraft couldn't be chartered to do that flight legally. It had to be a twin crewed by two commercial pilots. If the plane was a private flight the McKays couldn't be charged or it was commercial and illegal.

I think the AAIB and NTSB have homed in on this aspect and there is no place to hide. I have no doubt the truth will come out. What's the odds on a tabloid paying megabucks for the missing pilot's story.

That looks like a pretty damning report. The McKays obviously hired the plane and crew (Did they own it?) They are mixed up in their terms. A commercial flight is confused as private and commercial. The proper terminology is scheduled and chartered. Although the passenger didn't, pay somebody did. A single engine aircraft couldn't be chartered to do that flight legally. It had to be a twin crewed by two commercial pilots. If the plane was a private flight the McKays couldn't be charged or it was commercial and illegal.

 

I think the AAIB and NTSB have homed in on this aspect and there is no place to hide. I have no doubt the truth will come out. What's the odds on a tabloid paying megabucks for the missing pilot's story.

McKay's going out of their way to say they never took any money for the flight to try and distance themselves from responsibly !?

BBC with more details about how the flight was arranged;

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47013474

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Nice touch from Arsenal in this evening's programme

The murky world of football agents

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6661473/Emiliano-Sala-pawn-sordid-transfer-shames-football.html

They're saying out here, that the plane has been found!

They're saying out here, that the plane has been found!

Yep, heard on the radio news that a privately funded search operation using sonar and a remote submersible has found it, mostly intact, at the bottom of the Channel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47111632

The murky world of football agents

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6661473/Emiliano-Sala-pawn-sordid-transfer-shames-football.html

the most interesting thing in that is that 'he bought cigarettes from the local Tabac'..... really? A pro footballer in this day and age.

The murky world of football agents

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6661473/Emiliano-Sala-pawn-sordid-transfer-shames-football.html

An interesting read. The published fee was £15 million yet the total cost to Cardiff after agents had their cut was £30 million. Amazing !

A body has been found..

A body has been found..

Although they have found the wreckage it will be difficult to prove icing. They will be trying to eliminate initially structural failure or engine failure and if they find the bodies whether the post mortem shows up any health failure. Going to take a while before any report comes out. An inquest will look at it in detail and what the jury's verdict will be. It remains to be seen if there will be any prosecutions. I was part of the BALPA legal team representing the pilots at the Kegworth as a B737 - 400 pilot at the time. (M1 crash British Midland B737). The inquest was painstaking with QCs representing all interested parties and cross examinations going into all the details.

A body has been found..

Not that I know much about anything (but this thread has been interesting reading by the Professionals, thanks) but I'd guess that the body belongs to Ibbotson. I'd assume he was doing all he could as the plane hit the water, so wouldn't have had time to react or get out his seat. Sala meanwhile may have been unseatbelted and trying to get a life vest on or just panicking. All speculation of course, but the fact those cushions were found in Northern France means there was either a door open or the fuselage or the plane was ripped open, and logic would dictate than anyone not in a seatbelt would have been washed away.

Anyway that's my detective work, probably all wrong, but seemingly feasible. The other body may still be in there and they just can't see it's yet, but I feel it's possible they'll never find the other body. Which IMO would be Salas.

Not that I know much about anything (but this thread has been interesting reading by the Professionals, thanks) but I'd guess that the body belongs to Ibbotson. I'd assume he was doing all he could as the plane hit the water, so wouldn't have had time to react or get out his seat. Sala meanwhile may have been unseatbelted and trying to get a life vest on or just panicking. All speculation of course, but the fact those cushions were found in Northern France means there was either a door open or the fuselage or the plane was ripped open, and logic would dictate than anyone not in a seatbelt would have been washed away.

 

Anyway that's my detective work, probably all wrong, but seemingly feasible. The other body may still be in there and they just can't see it's yet, but I feel it's possible they'll never find the other body. Which IMO would be Salas.

Horrific way to go, trapped in a metal box sinking to the bottom of the ocean.

Horrific way to go, trapped in a metal box sinking to the bottom of the ocean.

I'd be astonished if either occupant survived the impact. I'd certainly hope that's the case.

From the underwater photo it looks as if the top of the fuselage is severely buckled behind the wings. That could indicated the aircraft hit the water at a relatively straight and level attitude with a high rate of descent, much like AF447. That could indicate a shall, which could have been caused by wing icing.

Just a theory based on pretty basic physics.

Horrific way to go, trapped in a metal box sinking to the bottom of the ocean.

A young fit guy banging on the sides fighting for his life sinking in icy water in the dark is not a nice thought. I hope he was unconscious at the time.

A single engined 30+ y.o banger of a plane, a barely proficient pilot, a night crossing in January, multiple take off attempts - what a death trap and all for the sake of an extra 12-18 hours or so....

I'd be astonished if either occupant survived the impact. I'd certainly hope that's the case.

 

From the underwater photo it looks as if the top of the fuselage is severely buckled behind the wings. That could indicated the aircraft hit the water at a relatively straight and level attitude with a high rate of descent, much like AF447. That could indicate a shall, which could have been caused by wing icing.

 

Just a theory based on pretty basic physics.

I don't know whether the a/c had de-icing boots or prop heating. Certainly photos pre accident I've seen showed a black leading edge on the wings and tail plane but that might just have been protective covering. The problem with boots if serviceable is that the ice has to be allowed to build up before operation. If used too early the boots cause a groove at the back of the build up so the pulsing doesn't break the ice free. I've flown the Fokker F27 and Bombardier Q400 which had boots. Breaking ice off was never a problem. The props have heating.

Probably before your time BEA Trident PI crashed coming out of Heathrow, stalled due to premature retraction of the droops and went in with little forward speed.

A young fit guy banging on the sides fighting for his life sinking in icy water in the dark is not a nice thought. I hope he was unconscious at the time.

 

A single engined 30+ y.o banger of a plane, a barely proficient pilot, a night crossing in January, multiple take off attempts - what a death trap and all for the sake of an extra 12-18 hours or so....

When you add this all up you wonder if Cardiff City knew of his plans and why they didn’t forbid him to board this aircraft. Maybe Derry might know, if the plane was having troubles, should the pilot have sent an mayday message to the nearest control center?

When you add this all up you wonder if Cardiff City knew of his plans and why they didn’t forbid him to board this aircraft. Maybe Derry might know, if the plane was having troubles, should the pilot have sent an mayday message to the nearest control center?

Probably only the agent had a clue which type of aircraft was used by the two individuals. It probably never dawned on Cardiff what a potentially dangerous flight was being planned.

As for the Mayday call. As reported, a relatively inexperienced private pilot flying an aircraft he admitted to being rusty on, at night probably in cloud, almost certainly if serviceable on autopilot. A competent instrument rated pilot with current relevant experience on type would have been constantly monitoring the instruments. A pilot without those skills and not experienced on the aircraft in those conditions may have lost control, not even knowing which way was up and what the aircraft was doing, consequently fighting for his life may well had no time due to complete overload to think.

One night early in my career I was flying single pilot carrying a load of explosives for the oil rigs from Norwich to Stavanger in the middle of the night. I was looking out of the window on a beautiful black star lit night with no horizon. I then passed over a large fishing fleet below showing single white lights, all of a sudden I couldn't see where the sky was because the lights blended in with the stars. Visually I didn't know what way was up or down. I opted for the simple solution, stopped looking out of the window and went back to instrument cross checking and monitored the instruments until past the fishing fleet.

I'd be astonished if either occupant survived the impact. I'd certainly hope that's the case.

 

From the underwater photo it looks as if the top of the fuselage is severely buckled behind the wings. That could indicated the aircraft hit the water at a relatively straight and level attitude with a high rate of descent, much like AF447. That could indicate a shall, which could have been caused by wing icing.

 

Just a theory based on pretty basic physics.

Yeah - thanks for that - not being up on my aviation knowledge, decided to look that up at midnight and spent a good hour and a half watching the program about it and reading other related articles, went into the small hours - knackered now.

As somebody who for many years used to be a frequent flyer (4 flights a month on average), I was never phased or particularity worried about it. Had very few hairy moments that I can remember, Belfast City late at night - going in sideways, never made the landing, tried 3 times and then eventually landed at Aldergrove. There were a couple of others, but nothing that really worried me. Having read this thread though, you do sort of get the feeling that its the human factor that in most cases appears to be the weak link.

Even the case you quote - I saw on the program that although the aircraft reported numerous 'faults' all the pilots apparently did in the simulator was increase the airspeed and it flew through the storm. I totally get that it's probably not that simple when you are actually facing the situation, but it's tragic to think that this was all that was required?

I remember seeing another ACI programme where a diverted aircraft simply fell out of the sky because it ran out of fuel - how does that happen in this day and age.

Now here we are talking about a crate of a plane, 'unqualified' pilot, flying in poor weather over the sea. I'm thinking that I'm glad that I don't get on too many flights these days, is it really still as safe as it's made out to be?

I don't know whether the a/c had de-icing boots or prop heating. Certainly photos pre accident I've seen showed a black leading edge on the wings and tail plane but that might just have been protective covering. The problem with boots if serviceable is that the ice has to be allowed to build up before operation. If used too early the boots cause a groove at the back of the build up so the pulsing doesn't break the ice free. I've flown the Fokker F27 and Bombardier Q400 which had boots. Breaking ice off was never a problem. The props have heating.

 

Probably before your time BEA Trident PI crashed coming out of Heathrow, stalled due to premature retraction of the droops and went in with little forward speed.

Slight digression, but a significant factor in the BEA Trident crash was that the pilot was an autocrat with an underlying heart problem that affected his performance. My understanding was that although the Trident had the potential to stall, the lack of teamwork on the flight desk made the situation catastrophic when it did.

It will be interesting to see what the root cause of the Sala crash was, and whether only having one less experienced pilot was a significant factor. Assuming that it is possible to work this out. I have always thought that having two pilots working together as a team gives better outcomes when facing potential accidents.

kwsaint said:

Slight digression, but a significant factor in the BEA Trident crash was that the pilot was an autocrat with an underlying heart problem that affected his performance. My understanding was that although the Trident had the potential to stall, the lack of teamwork on the flight desk made the situation catastrophic when it did.

 

It will be interesting to see what the root cause of the Sala crash was, and whether only having one less experienced pilot was a significant factor. Assuming that it is possible to work this out. I have always thought that having two pilots working together as a team gives better outcomes when facing potential accidents.

Interestingly the Captain had a row in the crew room over industrial problems and was supposed to be in a foul mood not good with two relatively inexperienced co-pilots. The same Captain represented Capt Thain for BALPA in his problems with BEA after the Man Utd 1958 Munich crash. The Germans blamed ice on the wings and refused to change the accident report even though it was conclusively proved that it was slush on the runway affecting the relatively new nosewheel aircraft. The drag on the nosewheel increased by the square of the speed. The faster the speed the greater the drag eventually the speed stopped increasing and the plane ploughed off the runway.

Unlike Boeings where a single flab lever sequentially when selected raises flaps then the leading edge slats. There are speeds to be attained for each selection. The Trident had two levers for flaps and droops so the droops could be retracted independently which is what happened with the speed too low.

Probably only the agent had a clue which type of aircraft was used by the two individuals. It probably never dawned on Cardiff what a potentially dangerous flight was being planned.

 

As for the Mayday call. As reported, a relatively inexperienced private pilot flying an aircraft he admitted to being rusty on, at night probably in cloud, almost certainly if serviceable on autopilot. A competent instrument rated pilot with current relevant experience on type would have been constantly monitoring the instruments. A pilot without those skills and not experienced on the aircraft in those conditions may have lost control, not even knowing which way was up and what the aircraft was doing, consequently fighting for his life may well had no time due to complete overload to think.

 

One night early in my career I was flying single pilot carrying a load of explosives for the oil rigs from Norwich to Stavanger in the middle of the night. I was looking out of the window on a beautiful black star lit night with no horizon. I then passed over a large fishing fleet below showing single white lights, all of a sudden I couldn't see where the sky was because the lights blended in with the stars. Visually I didn't know what way was up or down. I opted for the simple solution, stopped looking out of the window and went back to instrument cross checking and monitored the instruments until past the fishing fleet.

Sounds like you are going to be right, Derry. Reports are referring to "spatial disorientation" which sounds like that which you experienced.

Slight digression, but a significant factor in the BEA Trident crash was that the pilot was an autocrat with an underlying heart problem that affected his performance. My understanding was that although the Trident had the potential to stall, the lack of teamwork on the flight desk made the situation catastrophic when it did.

 

It will be interesting to see what the root cause of the Sala crash was, and whether only having one less experienced pilot was a significant factor. Assuming that it is possible to work this out. I have always thought that having two pilots working together as a team gives better outcomes when facing potential accidents.

Interestingly the Captain had a row in the crew room over industrial problems and was supposed to be in a foul mood not good with two relatively inexperienced co-pilots. The same Captain represented Capt Thain for BALPA in his problems with BEA after the Man Utd 1956 Munich crash. The Germans blamed ice on the wings and refused to change the accident report even though it was conclusively proved that it was slush on the runway affecting the relatively new nosewheel aircraft. The drag on the nosewheel increased by the square of the speed. The faster the speed the greater the drag eventually the speed stopped increasing and the plane ploughed off the runway.

 

Unlike Boeings where a single flab lever sequentially when selected raises flaps then the leading edge slats. There are speeds to be attained for each selection. The Trident had two levers for flaps and droops so the droops could be retracted independently which is what happened with the speed too low.

I was working at Plesseys in Havant at the time of that crash and the Flight Data Recorder Lab was next to ours. One of the engineers from there showed us a plot of the data. It wasn't very wide and could be laid on a desk. He showed us where the stall started when the leading-edge droop had been retracted followed by the stick shaker pushing the nose down and the aircraft recovering. Then that was overriden and the nose was pulled up causing another stall. The stick shaker then pushed the nose down again and the aircraft started to recover. This was overriden again and the nose was pulled up and the aircraft was doomed.

I must be some sort of masochist but I am an avid follower of Air Crash Investigation on TV. I don't know why, maybe I am trying to store up something in case it ever becomes useful. The failure analysis in itself is a fascinating subject, it's just that it's a shame that people have to die in order to make this form of travel safer.

A common feature of these incidents where a stall is involved seems to be that the pilot instinctively pulls the nose up thus making the situation worse.

Let's hope that Sala and Ibbotson can be found soon although it's poor comfort for the families.

Nantes want their cash now !

How dim is that ??

I was working at Plesseys in Havant at the time of that crash and the Flight Data Recorder Lab was next to ours. One of the engineers from there showed us a plot of the data. It wasn't very wide and could be laid on a desk. He showed us where the stall started when the leading-edge droop had been retracted followed by the stick shaker pushing the nose down and the aircraft recovering. Then that was overriden and the nose was pulled up causing another stall. The stick shaker then pushed the nose down again and the aircraft started to recover. This was overriden again and the nose was pulled up and the aircraft was doomed.

 

I must be some sort of masochist but I am an avid follower of Air Crash Investigation on TV. I don't know why, maybe I am trying to store up something in case it ever becomes useful. The failure analysis in itself is a fascinating subject, it's just that it's a shame that people have to die in order to make this form of travel safer.

 

A common feature of these incidents where a stall is involved seems to be that the pilot instinctively pulls the nose up thus making the situation worse.

 

Let's hope that Sala and Ibbotson can be found soon although it's poor comfort for the families.

I flew the BAC 1-11 for a couple of years, that had a similar system to push the nose down if the aircraft deep stalled because of the T tail. The test aircraft had a parachute to deploy if that happened. The aircraft got into a position that I think masked the air intakes on the engines.

Ignoring the stick shaker or stick pusher is sheer stupidity unless it's a fault in the system. Much like flying a single engine aeroplane at night in icing conditions over a long sea leg.

Nantes want their cash now !

How dim is that ??

They had sold him to Cardiff, it makes no difference that it wasn't full payment at the moment he signed. He was a Cardiff player when he got on the plane. In may seem goulish to some, but why should they right off money due to Cardiff's mismanagement of his travel arrangements ? Presumably Cardiff will have some form of insurance they can claim against. I don't think it is any different to him suffering a career ending injury in the first minute of his first game for Cardiff.

They had sold him to Cardiff, it makes no difference that it wasn't full payment at the moment he signed. He was a Cardiff player when he got on the plane. In may seem goulish to some, but why should they right off money due to Cardiff's mismanagement of his travel arrangements ? Presumably Cardiff will have some form of insurance they can claim against.

I suggest that no insurance company will pay out until the 2nd body is found, especially for the 15m. The article on the agents just makesyou sick to death of big league football now. It is just a cess pit.

I think even the insurance might be in question if this flight was carried out anyway other than completely legal.

I think even the insurance might be in question if this flight was carried out anyway other than completely legal.

Nantes want their cash now !

How dim is that ??

Not dim at all, seems reasonable that they should have been paid the first instalment when it was due (which was probably before the plane was tragically lost). Cardiff are apparently questioning the paper work, that seems more dim. Its a terrible situation, but stalling on legit payment is bad form.

I know this is a bit morbid but I was reading up on the Challenger shuttle explosion recently.

I had never realised that the crew compartment survived the explosion intact. It then fell into the sea, which is probably when the astronauts died. Horrible.

Nantes want their cash now !

How dim is that ??

Why's it dim? He was sold to Cardiff. Payment has to be made as per the contract.

McKay's going out of their way to say they never took any money for the flight to try and distance themselves from responsibly !?

Well someone paid for the fuel,the landing fee and met check. By not taking any money does not excuse the fact that 'some one' paid for the transaction. Using someone's aircraft for whatever reason still has to be paid for somewhere along the line.The AAIB are no fools believe me.

The body has been recovered, I'm guessing the identity will probably be revealed tomorrow.

I wasn't suggesting Cardiff don't have to pay just that it was badly timed with the search in progress . I thought both clubs should have shown a bit more professionalism especially after the respect shown before the Cardiff game. That was all .

I think even the insurance might be in question if this flight was carried out anyway other than completely legal.

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I read the other day that although he was insured Cardiff would be £13m down as agents fees, tax, other payments. I think it said total cost was about 30m Ill try and find it was on work forum.

 

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The murky world of football agents

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6661473/Emiliano-Sala-pawn-sordid-transfer-shames-football.html

It was reported in this article.

I wasn't suggesting Cardiff don't have to pay just that it was badly timed with the search in progress . I thought both clubs should have shown a bit more professionalism especially after the respect shown before the Cardiff game. That was all .

The timing will be in the contract. I'm guessing that Nantes may have committed to a replacement with another club waiting on money from them, then another club in turn etc.

This is a tragic episode, and whilst Nantes insisting on the cash could be seen as insensitive, they wouldn't have to demand it had Cardiff paid it. I'm struggling to understand Cardiff position on it to be honest - the investigation has nothing to do with Nantes or the contract to pay. The fault is with Cardiff here, not Nantes.

The timing will be in the contract. I'm guessing that Nantes may have committed to a replacement with another club waiting on money from them, then another club in turn etc.

 

This is a tragic episode, and whilst Nantes insisting on the cash could be seen as insensitive, they wouldn't have to demand it had Cardiff paid it. I'm struggling to understand Cardiff position on it to be honest - the investigation has nothing to do with Nantes or the contract to pay. The fault is with Cardiff here, not Nantes.

Three instalments of £5m each. From The Times today:

"Cardiff insist that they are willing to meet their financial obligations to Nantes but their primary concern is to establish what happened and to support Sala’s family. His mother, sister and brother are in Nantes at present, although his sister travelled to Cardiff last week to meet club officials and collect some personal belongings.

Cardiff’s first payment was due seven days after completing the signing — January 26 — and after it had not been received last week Nantes took action. An email request on Thursday was followed by a formal legal letter this week and, with Cardiff insisting that they are not ready to deal with financial matters before a body has been found and a funeral taken place, the dispute is likely to continue.

Cardiff are believed to have obtained insurance for Sala on completing his signing before confirming their liability for the transfer fee by lodging his registration with the FA of Wales on January 21, the day of his flight. The club have an insurance policy of £16 million per player, which would cover the fee for their record signing, but not all of his £2.5 million salary over three and a half years, some of which is likely to be paid to his family. Bordeaux are entitled to a 50 per cent cut of the fee because Sala was on their books from 2012 to 2015, but the club have denied reports that they have asked Nantes for the money."

Hopefully they find both bodies.

As for the payment situation, Nantes are quite entitled to ask for their money.

I wasn't suggesting Cardiff don't have to pay just that it was badly timed with the search in progress . I thought both clubs should have shown a bit more professionalism especially after the respect shown before the Cardiff game. That was all .

Professionalism is exactly what Nantes are showing. If you had said they could have shown some compassion you would have had a point.

Cardiff being ****s by the sound of it.