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From The Skate News

 

Makka,

12/07/2010 11:17:43

Lintonblue : HMRC will appeal at the last minute as thsy did with Leeds,mainly because Chanrai is getting the club back. If a new owner appears than HMRC wont challenge,but as AA is putting up barriers so Chanrai can keep the club this wont happen.

Then we exit admin without a CVA and a large points deduction. The CVA is then worthless and Chanrai can pay creditors as little as 1p in the £,and do what he wants with any income,so he wont put in a penny but take money out ,then the club will be finished once the parachute payments have gone,only this years are earmarked for football creditors.

 

Interesting point. Is that actually the case if the CVA is refused?

 

As I understand it, if they don't come out with a CVA the club gets liquidated.

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A creditor could get a judgment proving that they're owed money but that would be a fat lot of good!

 

ah fair enough. I just thought that creditors would only get bugger all/next to nothin if the club is liquidated and there are no assets worth anything. Figured pretty much all other routes would leave a door open for creditors to at least try to get something back. A club that ditches all of its debt and sticks 2 fingers up to everyone while still continuing to trade and look to make money seems even less right than anything they have done already. Also seems like the best way out for any owner of a club. screw it up, offer a rubbish settlement so everyone rejects it, then buy it for bugger all and pay back nothing.

 

If the club is shut down and the assets are sold off would the football creditors rule be null and void? so effectivly the liquidators would get as much money they can from all assets and would be able to share it out more evenly between all creditors?

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ah fair enough. I just thought that creditors would only get bugger all/next to nothin if the club is liquidated and there are no assets worth anything. Figured pretty much all other routes would leave a door open for creditors to at least try to get something back. A club that ditches all of its debt and sticks 2 fingers up to everyone while still continuing to trade and look to make money seems even less right than anything they have done already. Also seems like the best way out for any owner of a club. screw it up, offer a rubbish settlement so everyone rejects it, then buy it for bugger all and pay back nothing.

 

If the club is shut down and the assets are sold off would the football creditors rule be null and void? so effectivly the liquidators would get as much money they can from all assets and would be able to share it out more evenly between all creditors?

 

Yes, to the last paragraph. The football creditors rule has no legal status - clubs comply because otherwise they have no business ie. they couldn't play football anymore. If a club was liquidated the football creditors would stand at the back of the queue along with all the other unsecured creditors.

 

Creditors could, in theory, take action against an administrator I think. As far as action against PFC goes though there's not a lot they can do. The insolvency really draws a line under the matter.

 

I think the point to remember about the first paragraph is that whilst that could happen and whilst it seems morally wrong, in most scenarios that would not actually benefit the owners; they are likely to have lost a lot of money too. If you believe what's reported, Chanrai is currently down by around £14m + any further contributions to find the administration. Al-Fahim is down £5m apparently. Al Faraj... well, goodness knows what that was all about!

 

Even if Chanrai assumes control for next to nothing it will take him a long time to get his money back and the prospect of making a profit is pretty slim. He will own Pompey - it's not exactly a great thing to own! There are far better ways of trying to make a quick buck!

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My understanding is if they come out of admin without the CVA in place, not only will they suffer a points deduction but they are no longer protected from creditors which basically means any creditor can apply to have them wound up. If the CVA is rejected on appeal they can stay in admin and try to put together another agreement but since the original proposal is supposedly the best deal available for creditors there would need to be some serious back tracking/manouevering to make this fly, either way emabargo stays in place.

 

Now whilst no one can predictable second guess what HRMC is likely to do, if HRMC's true aim is to teach football a lesson and pursue some of the more, let's call them colourful characters, that have been involved for personal transgressions, then the easiset and quickest way to do this is to try and get the CVA rejected wait for them to come out of admin, issue a winding up petition themselves and then they get to pick over the bones this could all happen in weeks. No need to wait the 9 months outlined in the CVA for the forensic accounting process every one says is thier primary objective.

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I think that is the only thing in pompooeys favour with regard to HMRC challenging. Whilst Griffins set out a better return, the reality is the aa is in charge and if the CVA fails, then has said he would look at liquidating the club and with chanarai owning the ground, gaydamak owning the other land and the players free to walk if it happened, there isnt any other assets to sell and the creditors would get nothing.

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One thing i'm finding it hard to understand is how it is possible to come out of Admin without a CVA. Does AA just say, we are no longer in admin? Do they need to prove to anyone that they will not be continuing to trade as insolvent? If so, who would that be?

 

Sorry if this has been covered, but could not remember if it has.

 

Ta

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Yes, to the last paragraph. The football creditors rule has no legal status - clubs comply because otherwise they have no business ie. they couldn't play football anymore. If a club was liquidated the football creditors would stand at the back of the queue along with all the other unsecured creditors.

 

Creditors could, in theory, take action against an administrator I think. As far as action against PFC goes though there's not a lot they can do. The insolvency really draws a line under the matter.

 

I think the point to remember about the first paragraph is that whilst that could happen and whilst it seems morally wrong, in most scenarios that would not actually benefit the owners; they are likely to have lost a lot of money too. If you believe what's reported, Chanrai is currently down by around £14m + any further contributions to find the administration. Al-Fahim is down £5m apparently. Al Faraj... well, goodness knows what that was all about!

 

Even if Chanrai assumes control for next to nothing it will take him a long time to get his money back and the prospect of making a profit is pretty slim. He will own Pompey - it's not exactly a great thing to own! There are far better ways of trying to make a quick buck!

 

Yeah I understand that if the club were to get liquidated and get shut down then everyone loses out. But if Chanrai has puppet mastered AA into serving up an offer that will in the end get rejected only for Chainrai to step in at the end offering just 1p in the pound as opposed to the 20p currently then he will have a club that is alive (just) for allot less than he was expecting. Surly that is an even better situation for him? I dont understand how the club if it were to still exist would not still be chased for something more than 1p in the pound.

 

Why would any business bother to look to pay more off when the ultimate option is what Chainrai might do?

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From The Skate News

 

Makka,

12/07/2010 11:17:43

Lintonblue : HMRC will appeal at the last minute as thsy did with Leeds,mainly because Chanrai is getting the club back. If a new owner appears than HMRC wont challenge,but as AA is putting up barriers so Chanrai can keep the club this wont happen.

Then we exit admin without a CVA and a large points deduction. The CVA is then worthless and Chanrai can pay creditors as little as 1p in the £,and do what he wants with any income,so he wont put in a penny but take money out ,then the club will be finished once the parachute payments have gone,only this years are earmarked for football creditors.

 

Interesting point. Is that actually the case if the CVA is refused?

 

In the Leeds case the original offer was 1p in the £, this was increased to 8p in the £ the day before the cva vote.

After the cva was challeged by HMRC a the sale of the club was for 11.2p in the £.

 

A good read of events is http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/seasons/200708part1.htm

with the letter sent to creditors for the 11.2p offer http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/pdf/season200708kpmgletter.pdf

 

I think in the luton case a High Court judge said that the "terms of the cva" should be paid, but i cannot find that online now.

 

I expect any "private sale" of the Cheats to be at least 20p in the £, with 15pts or 17pts (2nd Admin) penalty points.

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My understanding is if they come out of admin without the CVA in place, not only will they suffer a points deduction but they are no longer protected from creditors which basically means any creditor can apply to have them wound up. If the CVA is rejected on appeal they can stay in admin and try to put together another agreement but since the original proposal is supposedly the best deal available for creditors there would need to be some serious back tracking/manouevering to make this fly, either way emabargo stays in place.

 

Now whilst no one can predictable second guess what HRMC is likely to do, if HRMC's true aim is to teach football a lesson and pursue some of the more, let's call them colourful characters, that have been involved for personal transgressions, then the easiset and quickest way to do this is to try and get the CVA rejected wait for them to come out of admin, issue a winding up petition themselves and then they get to pick over the bones this could all happen in weeks. No need to wait the 9 months outlined in the CVA for the forensic accounting process every one says is thier primary objective.

 

Ah that makes sence and I think thats what I was missing.

 

If all else fails the club doesnt automatically just continue with slapped wrists. It also has a real chance of one of the creditors pushing it to be wound up and there fore who ever manouvered the club into this position would be left with a fat load of F all.

 

For a min I was thinking the more crap they got into the more they could get away with.

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I can see those fans in San Diego, fresh from the excitement of the World Cup, feeling a little short changed by this squad full of stars from South Africa

 

Stewart, Ward, Mullins, Hughes, Wilson, Pack, Cowan-Hall, Brown, Nugent, Ritchie, Smith.

 

Not an exciting prospect when the biggest name on the team-sheet is Hayden Mullins....

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I can see those fans in San Diego, fresh from the excitement of the World Cup, feeling a little short changed by this squad full of stars from South Africa

 

Stewart, Ward, Mullins, Hughes, Wilson, Pack, Cowan-Hall, Brown, Nugent, Ritchie, Smith.

 

Not an exciting prospect when the biggest name on the team-sheet is Hayden Mullins....

 

I wonder if the Americans are that worried anyway.

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as AA has made it quite clear that the americans are meeting the full cost of this tour and will want to recoup their outlay, I think they will be worried if a team of no hopers appears.

That won't fill seats, in fact it will be like a home game for them!

 

Or maybe I don't believe AA's claim about the cost of the US jolly not coming out of Pompey coffers, I would wager it's just another insult to creditors.

No doubt Storrie and AA will be topping up their tans in the states, unless they need to fly to Rome or Monaco for more urgent talks...the gravy train is still a rumbling on.

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I can see those fans in San Diego, fresh from the excitement of the World Cup, feeling a little short changed by this squad full of stars from South Africa

 

Stewart, Ward, Mullins, Hughes, Wilson, Pack, Cowan-Hall, Brown, Nugent, Ritchie, Smith.

 

Not an exciting prospect when the biggest name on the team-sheet is Hayden Mullins....

 

Still more well known than the mighty league one legend that is Lambert.

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Still more well known than the mighty league one legend that is Lambert.

 

TBF our club is not trying to sell its self as a team full of players from the WC. Our oponents in pre-season I assume will be quite pleased to be up againts L1's top scorer when billed to be against our recognised 1st team, but I guess they would be disapointed if we turned up with the saints XI that went to Winchester City on Saturday that included recognised (pro lol) Anthony Pulis.

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Yeah? Which one of those players will the Yanks have heard of then?

 

To give him the benifit of doubt Mullins is probably more well known that Lambert. How the yanks will react to that one being there big name could be interesting though.

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I can see those fans in San Diego, fresh from the excitement of the World Cup, feeling a little short changed by this squad full of stars from South Africa

 

Stewart, Ward, Mullins, Hughes, Wilson, Pack, Cowan-Hall, Brown, Nugent, Ritchie, Smith.

 

Not an exciting prospect when the biggest name on the team-sheet is Hayden Mullins....

 

I know one person at pompey more well known than just about everyone in that squad... AA come on down....

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Nugent and Smith upfront every day of the week. Theres a reason why they have played top flight nearly their entire career

 

You really are a nugget. Tommy Smith has played 409 games in his league career, scoring 85 goals.

 

Wanna know how many PL games in that? 65

 

How about the number of PL goals? Drum roll please......4 (Four):lol: 2 of those were in 99/00.

 

His best season for goals was the 08/09 season - 17 from 44 games.

 

Only other times he's made double figures were in the Championship - 11 in 04/05 (Derby, 42 games), 11 in 00/01 (Watford, 43 games), 11 in 01/02 (Watford, 40 games).

 

So, feel a bit of a plank do you?:blush:

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Apologies are in order...

 

some of those "second tier" matches and goals were actually third tier matches and goals.

 

There's still a reason why he's played most of his career in the top flight, mind.

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Nugent and Smith upfront every day of the week. Theres a reason why they have played top flight nearly their entire career

 

Sorry but...

 

84% of Smith's 409 League appearances were outside the top flight

 

74% of Nugent's 246 League appearances were outside the top flight

Edited by Matthew Le God
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84% of Smith's 409 League appearances were outside the top flight

 

74% of Nugent's 246 League appearances were outside the top flight

 

Pompey don't worry about figures, by the time AA gets hold of those stats then they will have both played most of their games in the top flight and scored in at least 50% of those too.

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Nugent and Smith upfront every day of the week. Theres a reason why they have played top flight nearly their entire career

 

Any chance you're going to enlighten us as to what that reason is?

 

Has Corpse changed his username to fmpr??

 

You really are a nugget. Tommy Smith has played 409 games in his league career, scoring 85 goals.

 

Wanna know how many PL games in that? 65

 

How about the number of PL goals? Drum roll please......4 (Four):lol: 2 of those were in 99/00.

 

His best season for goals was the 08/09 season - 17 from 44 games.

 

Only other times he's made double figures were in the Championship - 11 in 04/05 (Derby, 42 games), 11 in 00/01 (Watford, 43 games), 11 in 01/02 (Watford, 40 games).

 

So, feel a bit of a plank do you?:blush:

 

David Nugent:

 

Second tier matches: 182

Premier League matches: 64

 

Second tier goals: 51

Premier League goals 9

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Actually been out and dont spend my life on here funny that.

 

A correction which I did meant to write was Top flight and Championship but glad to have kept you amused. Remind me again what % of games Lambert has played at either of those two levels please?

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I can see those fans in San Diego, fresh from the excitement of the World Cup, feeling a little short changed by this squad full of stars from South Africa

 

Stewart, Ward, Mullins, Hughes, Wilson, Pack, Cowan-Hall, Brown, Nugent, Ritchie, Smith.

 

Not an exciting prospect when the biggest name on the team-sheet is Hayden Mullins....

Bugger, I just bought a ticket to watch some world-class soccer stars.

 

 

 

Not. :lol:

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I think that is the only thing in pompooeys favour with regard to HMRC challenging. Whilst Griffins set out a better return, the reality is the aa is in charge and if the CVA fails, then has said he would look at liquidating the club and with chanarai owning the ground, gaydamak owning the other land and the players free to walk if it happened, there isnt any other assets to sell and the creditors would get nothing.

And that is the stick that Comical Andy is beating the unsecured creditors' heads with. But it is surely a bluff, because it means Chainrai would forgo whatever part of the £48m parachute money he can get his grubby hands on.

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