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14 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You don’t have to tell me, it’s your mate soggy who seems to be struggling with it. 
 

Perhaps you could tell him that under both systems there will be votes that don’t result in representation . There will be a lot less under PR, but there will be some. You can’t say that under FPTP there will be “meaningless” votes, whereas under PR there won’t.

Anyeay I’m off canvassing for my new party. 
 

 

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Dear god Duckie. You really don’t get it do you? Yes, I understand perfectly well that it is possible that under PR your vote might not get you a seat in Parliament, but your vote still means something to the party you voted for. It gives you a chance and if enough people want the same thing across the whole of the electorate you will get a seat. Therefore it is worth getting off your backside and casting your vote. In safe seats it gives you nothing. Zilch. It is a pointless exercise. There is no perfect system and PR undoubtably has its issues, but it is infinitely fairer than FPTP. Every vote means something within the system, even if certain parties don’t poll enough to get a seat.

 

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52 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Like FPTP then. 

No not at all as I have explained many times but you have probably had your stuck in that pointy hat too long. Under PR every single person gets their proportional amount of representation according to the votes cast therefore every vote means something unlike your favoured system which means that hundreds of thousands of votes don’t mean a thing, even before the count has been completed.

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6 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 In safe seats it gives you nothing. Zilch. It is a pointless exercise. There is no perfect system and PR undoubtably has its issues

 

Shall we play "can you spot the contradiction"?

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 Under PR every single person gets their proportional amount of representation according to the votes cast therefore every vote means something unlike your favoured system which means that hundreds of thousands of votes don’t mean a thing, even before the count has been completed.

So, just to summarise, every vote counts, with the exception of the ones that don't count, because they "give you nothing, zilch."

Looks like that's been cleared up then!

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2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Under PR every single person gets their proportional amount of representation according to the votes cast therefore every vote means something 

So under the Soggy System, If my wonderful new party gets 0.000004% of the uk wide vote, we’ll get 0.000004% of the seats?
 

What if we only get 2 votes, how do those 2 votes count as meaning something under Soggy but not FPTP? You must be the only person advocating PR that won’t accept there will be a floor under which your vote won’t result in representation. 

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Posted (edited)

There's only one thing worse than taking Soggy to task about things I disagree with him about, and that's taking him to task in things I do agree with him about. Not sure how he has to make everything an embarrassment. Give up, man.

Not every vote counts on PR, but a heck of a lot more do count. It's a fairer, more representative system which gives a better voice to more voters and would likely improve engagement. Proportional systems are already in use in the UK and good thing too.

Not sure what this particular debate is achieving though.

Edited by CB Fry
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On 02/07/2021 at 11:47, CB Fry said:

It's difficult to see Starmer winning an election from here, but he might steady the decline as the memories of that cretin continues to fade.

Hopefully somewhere there is a talented, inspiring leader who could be a Labour Prime Minister in my lifetime.

This Kim Leadbetter is bright, Northern, comes across well, is telegenic, has an interesting back story - is a "community organiser" like Obama was mocked for. Pie in the sky but who knows, maybe its her for five years time. I don't think its Andy Burnham particularly.

Starmer isn't a massive fan of grassroots "community organisers." 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/02/starmers-war-on-grassroots-politics

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4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Shall we play "can you spot the contradiction"?

So, just to summarise, every vote counts, with the exception of the ones that don't count, because they "give you nothing, zilch."

Looks like that's been cleared up then!

What on Earth are you talking about? If I vote for any other party than for the Tories where I live then that vote doesn’t get me anything and I am wasting my time leaving the sofa. Under PR my vote goes into the same pot as everybody else’s rather than a tiny pot that is virtually full of Tory votes at the start so it is well worth casting my vote, it’s value being that at the point of being cast, it could actually make a difference. I won’t know if it does or not until the votes are counted but under FPTP I know immediately that my vote will not get me anything.There is no contradiction. One vote has a value, one doesn’t. 

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29 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

What on Earth are you talking about? If I vote for any other party than for the Tories where I live then that vote doesn’t get me anything and I am wasting my time leaving the sofa. Under PR my vote goes into the same pot as everybody else’s rather than a tiny pot that is virtually full of Tory votes at the start so it is well worth casting my vote, it’s value being that at the point of being cast, it could actually make a difference. I won’t know if it does or not until the votes are counted but under FPTP I know immediately that my vote will not get me anything.There is no contradiction. One vote has a value, one doesn’t. 

:mcinnes:

What about votes cast in safe seats that you explicitly stated give you nothing - your words, not mine!!

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2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

:mcinnes:

What about votes cast in safe seats that you explicitly stated give you nothing - your words, not mine!!

You do know how PR systems work, don't you ?

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13 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

Starmer isn't a massive fan of grassroots "community organisers." 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/02/starmers-war-on-grassroots-politics

I did some "grassroots" campaigning for Labour a couple of years ago and I'm not surprised by Starmer's reaction.  Whilst in theory having large numbers of local people campaigning for you should be a good thing, it's become infested with extremists, mostly who are very young and very irritating.  I witnessed first hand how off putting they were to most of the general public.

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7 hours ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

I did some "grassroots" campaigning for Labour a couple of years ago and I'm not surprised by Starmer's reaction.  Whilst in theory having large numbers of local people campaigning for you should be a good thing, it's become infested with extremists, mostly who are very young and very irritating.  I witnessed first hand how off putting they were to most of the general public.

I refuse to believe the real Jeremy Corbyn would say that. I declare you a fraud! 

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14 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

I refuse to believe the real Jeremy Corbyn would say that. I declare you a fraud! 

I haven't claimed to be "the" Jeremy Corbyn, just "a" Jeremy Corbyn.  Many of the people I met were much further left than Corbyn.

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10 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

I haven't claimed to be "the" Jeremy Corbyn, just "a" Jeremy Corbyn.  Many of the people I met were much further left than Corbyn.

The trouble with a lot of activists is that it’s a game for them whilst at uni. I had a student job in an engineering company. It paid well and they treated us okay, better than the alternatives anyhow. Despite that it regularly got picketed by arsehole Socialist workers students. Manu  of them got jobs in the city after graduation 

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