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Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk


Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum  

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  1. 1. Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

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4 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

we should therefore be afforded equal FTA terms to those already afforded by the EU to Canada, S. Korea and Japan, the sooner a deal will be arranged. I don't recall the EU insisting that the ECJ have precedence over their legal systems, that they be allowed to fish their territorial waters, or allowed to interfere in their governments' decisions on subsidies and work standards

How come you are still so breathtakingly ignorant even after four years of discussion? It's mind numbing. 

Canada, South Korea and Japan have FTAs. Britain is seeking continued access to parts of the single market - the rights but not the responsibilities.  A single market can only operate if you have a single set of rules for everybody and a single legal process for resolving disputes. Britain doesn't want to maintain the same standards and doesn't want to have to comply with the legal process.   

Those demands are deliberately constructed to make a deal impossible but make it look like the EU are being intransigent. And that has been Johnson's plan for at least a year.   

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1 minute ago, buctootim said:

How come you are still so breathtakingly ignorant even after four years of discussion? It's mind numbing. 

Canada, South Korea and Japan have FTAs. Britain is seeking continued access to parts of the single market - the rights but not the responsibilities.  A single market can only operate if you have a single set of rules for everybody and a single legal process for resolving disputes. Britain doesn't want to maintain the same standards and doesn't want to have to comply with the legal process.   

Those demands are deliberately constructed to make a deal impossible but make it look like the EU are being intransigent. And that has been Johnson's plan for at least a year.   

Ah, I see that you have re-considered your previous post, which I was just about to respond to, so I am aware of the parts of it that are rubbish, based on our former position last year. I can see why your brain is numb. You need to come up to date. We are no longer negotiating under May and the useless Robbins, so we don't now want anything to do with the SM and CU. Like all other countries who trade with the EU, we only want access to the SM, not membership. I repeat, Canada, S.Korea and Japan don't face those additional hurdles that the EU seeks to impose on us, so there is no reason that we should accept them either. Naturally I accept that the EU seek to punish us to discourage others from leaving. I also accept that they are shit scared that we will thrive as a serious competitor right on their doorstep, so they will seek to hamper our freedoms to liberate our trade output from their bureaucracy and away from their legal jurisdiction.

We are no longer victims of a remoaner Parliament, tied by Benn's Surrender Act against walking away from a bad deal. Giving up on those three red lines would constitute a bad deal, so unless they are removed, we will be better off under WTO rules. Who cares whether one side blames the other of intransigence? You talk as if there is no blame on their side for some reason, but I gave good reasons for their intransigence above.

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21 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

Ah, I see that you have re-considered your previous post, which I was just about to respond to, so I am aware of the parts of it that are rubbish, based on our former position last year. I can see why your brain is numb. You need to come up to date. We are no longer negotiating under May and the useless Robbins, so we don't now want anything to do with the SM and CU. Like all other countries who trade with the EU, we only want access to the SM, not membership. I repeat, Canada, S.Korea and Japan don't face those additional hurdles that the EU seeks to impose on us, so there is no reason that we should accept them either. Naturally I accept that the EU seek to punish us to discourage others from leaving. I also accept that they are shit scared that we will thrive as a serious competitor right on their doorstep, so they will seek to hamper our freedoms to liberate our trade output from their bureaucracy and away from their legal jurisdiction.

We are no longer victims of a remoaner Parliament, tied by Benn's Surrender Act against walking away from a bad deal. Giving up on those three red lines would constitute a bad deal, so unless they are removed, we will be better off under WTO rules. Who cares whether one side blames the other of intransigence? You talk as if there is no blame on their side for some reason, but I gave good reasons for their intransigence above.

Case in point. You don't address the issues you just repeat stock mantras. And I simply corrected a formatting issue, the content didn't change. Is there nothing you can compute? 

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14 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

 

14 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

......We are no longer victims of a remoaner Parliament, tied by Benn's Surrender Act against walking away from a bad deal. ........

You seriously need some new material.

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33 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Case in point. You don't address the issues you just repeat stock mantras. And I simply corrected a formatting issue, the content didn't change. Is there nothing you can compute? 

Formatting issue?  😆

Yes, I can compute that when it comes to actual chains of events regarding Brexit, you are often wrong.

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The 2016 article is headlined: “IMF: Brexit hit to UK could be ‘pretty bad to very, very bad’”.

Published barely a month before the vote, the story cites an IMF report which claims: “A vote for exit would precipitate a protracted period of heightened uncertainty, leading to financial market volatility and a hit to output.”

However, fast-forward four years and things do not appear to be quite so bleak, with Mr Winstone including for comparison a story published yesterday headlined: “IMF predicts stable growth after Britain’s exit from EU”.

Speaking four years ago Ms Lagarde said the impact of Brexit would have “pretty bad, to very, very bad” consequences for the UK.

She is now backtracking on that statement

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7 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

My point is that some of the EU relies on us as much as we rely on them.  Negotiating a deal is mutually beneficial but potentially more harmful for some of the EU if one is not agreed.

Ah, the old " they need us more..." line of argument.

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11 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Lots of Spanish people in the last couple of days complaining that Boris has turned the tourism tap off.  The amount of noise they're making it almost sounds like they need our money - maybe they should give their negotiators a nudge ;)

How does coming out of the EU stop us from going on holiday in Spain in the future?

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4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

My point is that some of the EU relies on us as much as we rely on them.  Negotiating a deal is mutually beneficial but potentially more harmful for some of the EU if one is not agreed.

You’d trade infections and deaths for an angle on Gibraltar or rioja tariffs. Interesting. 

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15 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

Where did he suggest that?

Here. "Lots of Spanish people in the last couple of days complaining that Boris has turned the tourism tap off.  The amount of noise they're making it almost sounds like they need our money - maybe they should give their negotiators a nudge"

I would say 'concentrate and you can do it Wes'. But I'm not sure that's true anymore. 

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Just now, buctootim said:

Here. "Lots of Spanish people in the last couple of days complaining that Boris has turned the tourism tap off.  The amount of noise they're making it almost sounds like they need our money - maybe they should give their negotiators a nudge"

I would say 'concentrate and you can do it Wes'. But I'm not sure that's true anymore. 

Your thought processes are truly bizarre if you can translate what WSS said into what your interpretation of it was.

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5 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

Your thought processes are truly bizarre if you can translate what WSS said into what your interpretation of it was.

What is your interpretation?  Are you denying he suggested linking a public health decision and trade negotiations?  

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3 minutes ago, buctootim said:

What is your interpretation?  Are you denying he suggested a linking a public health decision and trade negotiations?  

WSS clarified his opinion in a couple of responses to questions asked about his original statement that you quoted. Why don't you reference those instead of attempting to put words into his mouth?

Your response followed this comment from him:-

My point is that some of the EU relies on us as much as we rely on them.  Negotiating a deal is mutually beneficial but potentially more harmful for some of the EU if one is not agreed.

Which part of that do you disagree with?

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6 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

WSS clarified his opinion in a couple of responses to questions asked about his original statement that you quoted. Why don't you reference those instead of attempting to put words into his mouth?

Your response followed this comment from him:-

 

Which part of that do you disagree with?

He never said them fings. 

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5 minutes ago, buctootim said:

He never said them fings. 

It seems that you have difficulty in understanding what he did say. He certainly never said that he'd trade infections and deaths for an angle on Gibraltar or rioja tariffs. 

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6 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

Where did he suggest that?

What about 'maybe they should give their negotiators a nudge', to me that clearly suggests that WSS thinks that the Spanish are anxious about losing UK tourists. Coming out of the EU will not stop Brits going for a spot of summer sangria sun.

Maybe if he stops looking for the brexit angle on everything he wouldn't get himself into these messes.

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8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

What about 'maybe they should give their negotiators a nudge', to me that clearly suggests that WSS thinks that the Spanish are anxious about losing UK tourists. Coming out of the EU will not stop Brits going for a spot of summer sangria sun.

Maybe if he stops looking for the brexit angle on everything he wouldn't get himself into these messes.

If there's no trade deal then things will be more expensive and it will be more hassle so less people will go and they will spend less money. That seems obvious doesn't it? 

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5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

What about 'maybe they should give their negotiators a nudge', to me that clearly suggests that WSS thinks that the Spanish are anxious about losing UK tourists. Coming out of the EU will not stop Brits going for a spot of summer sangria sun.

Maybe if he stops looking for the brexit angle on everything he wouldn't get himself into these messes.

What messes? If you go back to the original post, you might detect a winky thingy at the end of it. I took that to mean that it was a light-hearted, tongue in cheek post. The subsequent posts responding to it are the ones looking for the (anti) Brexit angle. But posts looking for an angle on Brexit on a thread called "Brexit-enter at your own risk"? Whatever next?

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1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

What about 'maybe they should give their negotiators a nudge', to me that clearly suggests that WSS thinks that the Spanish are anxious about losing UK tourists. Coming out of the EU will not stop Brits going for a spot of summer sangria sun.

Maybe if he stops looking for the brexit angle on everything he wouldn't get himself into these messes.

Jesus wept!  Did you notice the title of this thread?  What were you expecting, a post on the intricacies of cream cake baking?

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3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Jesus wept!  Did you notice the title of this thread?  What were you expecting, a post on the intricacies of cream cake baking?

You were linking corona with Brexit negotiations then. Better from the horse's mouth than the pantomime arse. 

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1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

If there's no trade deal then things will be more expensive and it will be more hassle so less people will go and they will spend less money. That seems obvious doesn't it? 

I thought we were all going to be richer and freer after Brexit. Will be a shock to many that we will be poorer, prices higher and more bureaucracy.   

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3 minutes ago, buctootim said:

I thought we were all going to be richer and freer after Brexit. Will be a shock to many that we will be poorer, prices higher and more bureaucracy.   

I don't think I've ever seen people claim that brexit would make them richer. Not in the short term at least. 

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5 minutes ago, buctootim said:

You were linking corona with Brexit negotiations then. Better from the horse's mouth than the pantomime arse. 

No.

I was linking a travel ban to Spain and the subsequent loss of trade / income and Brexit negotiations.   You're the one who got all melodramatic about Covid and deaths.

 

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2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

No.

I was linking a travel ban to Spain and the subsequent loss of trade / income and Brexit negotiations.   You're the one who got all melodramatic about Covid and deaths.

 

The travel ban has nothing to do with covid and deaths?  Logic leaps of a mountain goat. 

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4 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

What messes? If you go back to the original post, you might detect a winky thingy at the end of it. I took that to mean that it was a light-hearted, tongue in cheek post. The subsequent posts responding to it are the ones looking for the (anti) Brexit angle. But posts looking for an angle on Brexit on a thread called "Brexit-enter at your own risk"? Whatever next?

 

3 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Jesus wept!  Did you notice the title of this thread?  What were you expecting, a post on the intricacies of cream cake baking?

Just because this is a brexit thread doesn't automatically make what you type brexit especially when you are trying to elicite a point with no substance. Can't you see that you pair of window lickers.

Interesting that WSS can't back up his point with a proper argument.

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5 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

If there's no trade deal then things will be more expensive and it will be more hassle so less people will go and they will spend less money. That seems obvious doesn't it? 

You're joking right, how will a lack of a trade deal interupt Ryan Air et al filling their planes and Spanish hotels from letting out rooms to willing punters. Will people still want to go to Spain post Brexit, of course they will. If, there is a rise in cost, it will be negligible, seriously how many people do you think an extra £50 or whatever marginal figure it is, will be put off from going. My guess is zero.

Will the Spanish, who according to WSS are desperate for our dosh, make it harder/more expensive to go there. I reckon not. Will the freedom loving Torys make it harder to go, no. Will the entrepreneural free market keep it as easy to go, you bet they will.

What would you Brexit loons have said three years ago if someone said to you it will harder and more expensive to go to Spain post Brexit. My answers above.

You lot are priceless.

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4 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

You're joking right, how will a lack of a trade deal interupt Ryan Air et al filling their planes and Spanish hotels from letting out rooms to willing punters. Will people still want to go to Spain post Brexit, of course they will. If, there is a rise in cost, it will be negligible, seriously how many people do you think an extra £50 or whatever marginal figure it is, will be put off from going. My guess is zero.

Will the Spanish, who according to WSS are desperate for our dosh, make it harder/more expensive to go there. I reckon not. Will the freedom loving Torys make it harder to go, no. Will the entrepreneural free market keep it as easy to go, you bet they will.

What would you Brexit loons have said three years ago if someone said to you it will harder and more expensive to go to Spain post Brexit. My answers above.

You lot are priceless.

It's only "Project Fear" when remoaners say it.

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10 hours ago, buctootim said:

The travel ban has nothing to do with covid and deaths?  Logic leaps of a mountain goat. 

Of course it does, I've never claimed otherwise.

My point - I'll spell it out once more for the hard of thinking - is that Spain have been making noises about Boris turning the toursim tap off, thus reducing their income (I know the reason behind this is Covid, but the point is that the money from tourism will dry up).

My next point was about the EU negotiators and their ability to negotiate on behalf of ALL EU nations.  For example, Spain does not rely SOLELY on tourism from the UK - granted, that does help their economy, hence why they aren't happy about the tourism tap being turned off - but they also EXPORT to the UK.  You know, the kind of thing that negotiators would want to make sure they get right with things like, I don't know, maybe trade deals?  Then the Spanish can continue selling us cars, car parts, fruits, nuts, vegetables, machinery etc etc, ensuring they achieve best value for their economy.

https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/exports/united-kingdom

To sum it up - for those that do not have an ability to make any sort of 'logic leap' - whilst Spain are not happy about the tourism tap being turned off by Boris (once more, I am fully aware of the reason this is happening, but in this scenario it is purely coincidental and could be caused by any number of other reasons like nuclear disaster, terrorism, flood, famine etc), perhaps the fact that it CAN happen would prompt the Spanish (and potentially other countries in the EU) to 'give the EU negotiators a nudge' to ensure that they are getting the best deal possible for them and not just what Brussels wants.

Please do continue to wave your hand when you don't understand simple concepts as I'm always happy to spell them out for our more simple minded members.

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8 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

You're joking right, how will a lack of a trade deal interupt Ryan Air et al filling their planes and Spanish hotels from letting out rooms to willing punters. Will people still want to go to Spain post Brexit, of course they will. If, there is a rise in cost, it will be negligible, seriously how many people do you think an extra £50 or whatever marginal figure it is, will be put off from going. My guess is zero.

Will the Spanish, who according to WSS are desperate for our dosh, make it harder/more expensive to go there. I reckon not. Will the freedom loving Torys make it harder to go, no. Will the entrepreneural free market keep it as easy to go, you bet they will.

What would you Brexit loons have said three years ago if someone said to you it will harder and more expensive to go to Spain post Brexit. My answers above.

You lot are priceless.

As a Conservative, of course I share your opinion that market forces and supply and demand will determine where people go for their holidays. The same thing applied to the fall in the value of the pound post the referendum vote, when there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth about how the cost of foreign holidays would increase. Hoteliers and restauranteurs in countries like Spain and Italy which have a heavy reliance on tourism reduced their prices rather than face a substantial drop in trade. The tourist trade from abroad to the UK rose and with full occupancy, there was even some scope for price increases

My views on this have not changed one jot before or after Brexit, but I'm pleased to see that on matters like this, you share them.

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The way that are dealing with the increasing flow of illegal immigrants coming across the Channel is a disgrace. Unless we take positive action to deter them like sending them right back at the shortest available opportunity, the trickle will become a flood.

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15 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Of course it does, I've never claimed otherwise.

My point - I'll spell it out once more for the hard of thinking - is that Spain have been making noises about Boris turning the toursim tap off, thus reducing their income (I know the reason behind this is Covid, but the point is that the money from tourism will dry up).

My next point was about the EU negotiators and their ability to negotiate on behalf of ALL EU nations.  For example, Spain does not rely SOLELY on tourism from the UK - granted, that does help their economy, hence why they aren't happy about the tourism tap being turned off - but they also EXPORT to the UK.  You know, the kind of thing that negotiators would want to make sure they get right with things like, I don't know, maybe trade deals?  Then the Spanish can continue selling us cars, car parts, fruits, nuts, vegetables, machinery etc etc, ensuring they achieve best value for their economy.

https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/exports/united-kingdom

To sum it up - for those that do not have an ability to make any sort of 'logic leap' - whilst Spain are not happy about the tourism tap being turned off by Boris (once more, I am fully aware of the reason this is happening, but in this scenario it is purely coincidental and could be caused by any number of other reasons like nuclear disaster, terrorism, flood, famine etc), perhaps the fact that it CAN happen would prompt the Spanish (and potentially other countries in the EU) to 'give the EU negotiators a nudge' to ensure that they are getting the best deal possible for them and not just what Brussels wants.

Please do continue to wave your hand when you don't understand simple concepts as I'm always happy to spell them out for our more simple minded members.

So one minute your original statement was a winky thing not to be taken seriously and the next it meant to be a precis of this flesh out piece, although the two bare little resemblance. Just admit it's all a bit of a mess and move on. Own it Westy.

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9 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

The way that are dealing with the increasing flow of illegal immigrants coming across the Channel is a disgrace. Unless we take positive action to deter them like sending them right back at the shortest available opportunity, the trickle will become a flood.

I bet he wished he could say 'like torpedoing them out of the water'.

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7 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

So one minute your original statement was a winky thing not to be taken seriously and the next it meant to be a precis of this flesh out piece, although the two bare little resemblance. Just admit it's all a bit of a mess and move on. Own it Westy.

The original point was expanded with subsequent posts.  HTH, do try to keep up.

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13 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

So one minute your original statement was a winky thing not to be taken seriously and the next it meant to be a precis of this flesh out piece, although the two bare little resemblance. Just admit it's all a bit of a mess and move on. Own it Westy.

Flesh out...bare little. Have you been looking at too much porn? 😉

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11 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The original point was expanded with subsequent posts.  HTH, do try to keep up.

No it wasn't but we will draw a line under this one, so we can build up some anticipation whilst we await your next nugget.

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On 29/07/2020 at 12:58, Wes Tender said:

WSS clarified his opinion in a couple of responses to questions asked about his original statement that you quoted. Why don't you reference those instead of attempting to put words into his mouth?

Your response followed this comment from him:-

 

Which part of that do you disagree with?

 

48 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

No it wasn't but we will draw a line under this one, so we can build up some anticipation whilst we await your next nugget.

:mcinnes:

Perhaps you're just being deliberately belligerent rather than the alternative that you really are thick as pig shit ;)

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