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Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum  

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  1. 1. Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

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6 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Did you not see this coming?  The Government posted guidelines in November 2020 as steel falls under the 'rules of origin' category for the most part.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/changes-to-the-level-of-eu-steel-safeguard-quotas-tariff-stop-press-notice-45

The EU introduced the measures as far back as 2018, so plenty of time to prepare...

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=2161

 

No, I didn’t see the decimation of the remnants of our steel industry when I voted for brexit and I doubt anyone else did.

"Plenty of time to prepare...". Please explain how the steel industry could have prepared for reduced output and tariffs, other than by reducing its output, and consequently a shedding number of jobs. 

No amount of smart arse answers will alter the fact that this is damaging. 

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Lol.  Still a big penchant for the overdramatic I see.

From your BBC article :

Quote

In the year to March 2020 - before the coronavirus pandemic hit demand for steel - Tata Steel UK made a pre-tax loss of £654m

Seems like the only way to stop the 'decimation' of the remnants of our steel industry is for the Government / tax payer to bail them out.  The question is, why should they spend the money to do that when Russia and China provide us with steel that is cheaper than we can make ourselves?

You are correct in your assumption that it is damaging, but is it worth saving an industry that hasn't made a profit for years?

Certainly odd that you would make such a big deal about the loss of jobs now - since the 1970's over 300,000 seel worker jobs have been lost, compared to the less than 10,000 that remain.  Didn't hear much about you being 'devastated' about the loss of those jobs.  Perhaps there's just a wee bit of virtue signalling creeping in?

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13 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Lol.  Still a big penchant for the overdramatic I see.

From your BBC article :

Seems like the only way to stop the 'decimation' of the remnants of our steel industry is for the Government / tax payer to bail them out.  The question is, why should they spend the money to do that when Russia and China provide us with steel that is cheaper than we can make ourselves?

You are correct in your assumption that it is damaging, but is it worth saving an industry that hasn't made a profit for years?

Certainly odd that you would make such a big deal about the loss of jobs now - since the 1970's over 300,000 seel worker jobs have been lost, compared to the less than 10,000 that remain.  Didn't hear much about you being 'devastated' about the loss of those jobs.  Perhaps there's just a wee bit of virtue signalling creeping in?

As usual Weston, you miss the point. Its a very simple point that the brexit deal on this issue is a shit one, and that the deal is not "tariff free and quota free" as has been billed.  If I've missed something and there are  no quotas or tariffs on steel exports, post a link please. 

The damage to the steel industry that happened pre brexit is academic. This is a brexit thread. 

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3 hours ago, egg said:

As usual Weston, you miss the point. Its a very simple point that the brexit deal on this issue is a shit one, and that the deal is not "tariff free and quota free" as has been billed.  If I've missed something and there are  no quotas or tariffs on steel exports, post a link please. 

The damage to the steel industry that happened pre brexit is academic. This is a brexit thread. 

Once again, Egg, you've jumped to conclusions!

The issue of the tarrifs has nothing to do with the Brexit deal.

The tariffs were introduced by the EU in 2018 as an emergency measure to protect the EU steel industry.  They were supposed to run until summer 2021, although the EU may extend them for ALL third countries.  When / if they do extend them, the UK may be able to re-negotiate the terms.

All the info you need is in the links I posted previously.

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8 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Once again, Egg, you've jumped to conclusions!

The issue of the tarrifs has nothing to do with the Brexit deal.

The tariffs were introduced by the EU in 2018 as an emergency measure to protect the EU steel industry.  They were supposed to run until summer 2021, although the EU may extend them for ALL third countries.  When / if they do extend them, the UK may be able to re-negotiate the terms.

All the info you need is in the links I posted previously.

You may want to read those links Weston, and a bit more besides. The 2018 safeguarding measures were raised after the brexit vote in anticipation of brexit. The expectation was that they would ease but they did not, and the actual changes were "proposed" in October 2020, then introduced in 1st January. 

However you want to approach this, our steel exports are tariff and quota laden as a result of Brexit. 

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12 hours ago, egg said:

You may want to read those links Weston, and a bit more besides. The 2018 safeguarding measures were raised after the brexit vote in anticipation of brexit. The expectation was that they would ease but they did not, and the actual changes were "proposed" in October 2020, then introduced in 1st January. 

However you want to approach this, our steel exports are tariff and quota laden as a result of Brexit. 

And yet, according to Reuters, they were instigated to combat the US and others using the EU as a steel dumping ground :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-steel-europe-idUSKCN1T519B

The 2018 safeguarding measures that were apparently 'raised' after the Brexit vote, were actually implemented in 2018 (not January 2021) :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-steel-tariffs-idUSKBN2412J9

Quote

The EU put in place safeguard measures in 2018 to guard against shipments redirected to Europe after Washington’s imposition of 25% steel tariffs closed the U.S. market to many exporters.

Quote

Under the safeguards, quotas for 26 grades of steel, including stainless, were set in 2018 at the average of imports in 2015-2017 plus 5%. Imports beyond the quotas are subject to a 25% duty.

Still, nothing like a good made up story about Brexit decimating the UK steel industry!

That's also forgetting that from the start of the safeguards until 31st December 2020, the UK actually BENEFITTED from the tarriffs and quotas and still the basket case steel industry couldn't make a profit.

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Weston, not sure what you're reading but the first link you posted on the point clarified what this is about. We had a brexit vote before 2018. Then on 2018, in anticipation of brexit, we were the subject of measures on our steel exports. Those measures were expected to go. Since 1st January this year, as a result of brexit, our steel exports are subject to quotas and tariffs thus:

1. when Boris says we have a tariff /quota free trade deal he's lying 

2. we have that because of Brexit 

3. you're wrong, again. 

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5 minutes ago, egg said:

Weston, not sure what you're reading but the first link you posted on the point clarified what this is about. We had a brexit vote before 2018. Then on 2018, in anticipation of brexit, we were the subject of measures on our steel exports. Those measures were expected to go. Since 1st January this year, as a result of brexit, our steel exports are subject to quotas and tariffs thus:

1. when Boris says we have a tariff /quota free trade deal he's lying 

2. we have that because of Brexit 

3. you're wrong, again. 

Jesus wept :mcinnes:

In 2018 the EU set steel tarrifs as a result of Washington adding tarrifs to steel.  These tarrifs applied to ALL third countries (pay attention, this is the important bit).

You have claimed :

Quote

The 2018 safeguarding measures were raised after the brexit vote in anticipation of brexit. The expectation was that they would ease but they did not, and the actual changes were "proposed" in October 2020, then introduced in 1st January. 

I've highlighted the bits where you are wrong.  My links above demonstrate quite clearly the measures were put in place due to actions taken by Washington / Trump and NOT Brexit as you have claimed.

On the 1st of January 2021 our transition ended and we became a third country as far as the EU is concerned.  At this point the steel tarrifs - set at an average of 2015 - 2017 volume + 5% - became applicable to us.  Granted, that is a causal effect of Brexit, but would have been known about since the tarrifs were introduced, so plenty of time to prepare!

You are now trying to change your argument with respect to what Boris has said - here's a spade to help you dig yourself out of the hole you've created ;) 

spacer.png

 

In conclusion, YES, we have steel tariffs.  NO, they were not put in place because of the Brexit vote but because Washington / Trump imposed tarrifs and the EU took emergency measures to stop excess steel being dumped in the Union.  We also benefitted from these tarrifs whilst we remained within the EU / seeing out the transition period.

None of these things have caused the 'decimation' of the steel industry as you initially claimed.

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Thanks. The tariffs are not a "casual" impact of brexit. We are caught by them because of brexit and not agreeing a "free trade deal without quotas or tariffs" that Boris said we had. I think you're desire to be right is stopping you from seeing what is clear as day. 

Answer me this please:

1. would we be caught by tariffs / quotas on steel exports to the EU if brexit had not happened?

2. would we be caught by tariffs / quotas on steel exports to the EU if we had a free trade deal without tariffs / quotas in respect of steel products? 

We both know the answers but I doubt you'll have the grace to accept that you're wrong. 

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25 minutes ago, egg said:

Thanks. The tariffs are not a "casual" impact of brexit. We are caught by them because of brexit and not agreeing a "free trade deal without quotas or tariffs" that Boris said we had. I think you're desire to be right is stopping you from seeing what is clear as day. 

Answer me this please:

1. would we be caught by tariffs / quotas on steel exports to the EU if brexit had not happened?

2. would we be caught by tariffs / quotas on steel exports to the EU if we had a free trade deal without tariffs / quotas in respect of steel products? 

We both know the answers but I doubt you'll have the grace to accept that you're wrong. 

Lol.

Another volte-face and another change of tack with your arguments!

At no point have I ever argued that we would have had the tariffs had Brexit not have happened!  In fact, quite the opposite, I've clearly stated that we have the tariffs BECAUSE of Brexit and the fact that we became a third country at the beginning of January.  I've also argued that we have KNOWN that we would have the tariffs since 2018 so plenty of time to prepare, which you've disputed!

I was not involved with the Brexit negotiations, so cannot say for sure, but my guess is that in answer to question 2, the fact that the EU had instigated 'emergency' procedures which were ratified by the WTO, meant that there was no negotiation on this point during the free trade deal negotiations - although I will happily accuse Boris and his negotiators of being belligerent and neglectful if you can show that we COULD have negotiated against these emergency procedures.  However, even IF we could have negotiated on this issue, I still maintain that this is not the cause of the decimation of the steel industry as you have claimed!

You have also claimed that "The 2018 safeguarding measures were raised after the brexit vote in anticipation of brexit."   I have shown you that this is completely false, do you have the grace to accept that you are wrong?

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On 01/02/2021 at 12:24, ecuk268 said:

Similar to how remainers seized on some cheese company from up north not being able to export anymore as a travesty of brexit. 

The EU have shown themselves up for exactly what they are throughout this vaccination drama.

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3 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Similar to how remainers seized on some cheese company from up north not being able to export anymore as a travesty of brexit. 

The EU have shown themselves up for exactly what they are throughout this vaccination drama.

What 'til they find out about the cockles and mussels, it's gonna be biblical ;) 

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Ursula von der Leyen accidentally made the case for Brexit while apologising to Europe for the slow pace of her vaccine roll-out today - admitting that solo countries will be quicker at getting things done.

Attempting to justify why the EU signed deals for Covid vaccines weeks or months after the UK, she said on Friday that countries acting alone are 'like a speedboat' while the EU 'is more of a tanker.'

LOL

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It doesn't seem to e getting much reporting about but 3 small family companies who I deal with have closed or just stopped taking bits to Europe due to the enormous amount of paperwork and the large costs. It is difficult finding people who are doing consolidated loads to Europe for my business 

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6 hours ago, Johnny Bognor said:

 

Attempting to justify why the EU signed deals for Covid vaccines weeks or months after the UK, she said on Friday that countries acting alone are 'like a speedboat' while the EU 'is more of a tanker.'

 

 

C67D4BE6-9588-4971-BD52-BB386BDC3964.jpeg

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6 hours ago, Johnny Bognor said:

Ursula von der Leyen accidentally made the case for Brexit while apologising to Europe for the slow pace of her vaccine roll-out today - admitting that solo countries will be quicker at getting things done.

Attempting to justify why the EU signed deals for Covid vaccines weeks or months after the UK, she said on Friday that countries acting alone are 'like a speedboat' while the EU 'is more of a tanker.'

LOL

It literally spells out why many people voted to leave. The idea that a big powerful nation like Germany should hobble themselves and let people in their country die just because smaller nations don't have the resources is ridiculous. 

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Brexit chaos at UK ports:

Quote

The government added that traffic flows were “monitored on a daily basis by the Border Operations Centre” and that in the week from Jan 30 to Feb 5 “both outbound and inbound flows (across all UK ports) were close to normal, at 95pc outbound and 96pc inbound, in spite of the impact of Covid lockdowns on trade”.
During the same period, the Cabinet Office said that flows of traffic heading for Europe across the “short straits” route from Dover by ferry and Channel Tunnel were at 82pc of normal levels. This was backed up by data released by the Port of Dover on Monday that said “traffic continues to flow smoothly… at over 90pc the freight traffic volumes typical of this time of year following the significant stockpiling experienced before Christmas”.

 

Edited by Guided Missile
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2 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

Brexit chaos at UK ports:

 

As always you miss the point. Truck movements are down 5-18% but volumes are down much more. The Hauliers Association estimating up to 68% of EU trucks are returning empty because UK exports have disappeared.  

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3 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

Brexit chaos at UK ports:

 

isnt that the returning trucks from deliveries from Europe? Iam only in a small niche market but I have seen major reduction in small companies exporting to Europe

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  • 2 weeks later...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1399431/brexit-news-switzerland-uk-take-on-eu-deal-spt

The very very slow march towards EFTA (and possibly EEA) membership seems to be underway.

Not just the Express but also politicians like Diane Dodds of the DUP, who are at least saying they wouldn't mind the "Swiss model" in principle. This is significant as neither could be described as Remoaner sympathisers...

As I've mentioned many times, this whole sorry process is about saving face for all sides. There is no benefit for the UK and EU moving miles apart. A matter of time before politicians realise that.

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3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

"Of course, the UK is the world's fifth largest economy with many talented people working in the logistics industry. It is entirely possible that the situation could improve. However, for that to happen, Boris Johnson and his cabinet will need to convince their critics that they are operating in the realms of reality."

 

Think I might have found the flaw. 

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Although voting to remain in the EU, I was willing to accept there was the possibility I was misguided and the majority of people who voted for Brexit (including some good friends of mine) were right.
I still hope that, over the course of time, this proves correct.
However the more I see things evolving, the less benefit there seems.
I appreciate that some things have been adversely affected by Covid but it would be helpful if the Brexiteers on here could explain what benefits have been achieved since our exit from the EU.
The worry to me is that the not unexpected teething problems are likely to turn into a long term toothache which, for those of us who have suffered from the complaint, is not nice.

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16 hours ago, spyinthesky said:

 it would be helpful if the Brexiteers on here could explain what benefits have been achieved since our exit from the EU.
 

It’s such a long time ago, I can’t believe anyone can even remember what life was like before Brexit.

Fuck me, it’s Feb 23rd, it’s really quite astonishing they haven’t completely changed the country by now. What are they playing at, we’ve  been left nearly 2 months ffs. 
 

Im lucky enough to remember how the country completely changed within 7 weeks of joining the common market. 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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25 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s such a long time ago, I can’t believe anyone can even remember what life was like before Brexit.

Fuck me, it’s Feb 23rd, it’s really quite astonishing they haven’t completely changed the country by now. What are they playing at, we’ve  been left nearly 2 months ffs. 
 

Im lucky enough to remember how the country completely changed within 7 weeks of joining the common market. 

Spyinthesky - I think from Duckie's ramblings the answer to your question is none.

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2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s such a long time ago, I can’t believe anyone can even remember what life was like before Brexit.

Fuck me, it’s Feb 23rd, it’s really quite astonishing they haven’t completely changed the country by now. What are they playing at, we’ve  been left nearly 2 months ffs. 
 

Im lucky enough to remember how the country completely changed within 7 weeks of joining the common market. 

So seeing you could not answer that one, how about from another angle ... what benefits are you hoping to materialise??

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On 23/02/2021 at 16:33, warsash saint said:

So seeing you could not answer that one, how about from another angle ... what benefits are you hoping to materialise??

This is the question Brexiters never answer.  So let's see what happens...

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On 23/02/2021 at 16:33, warsash saint said:

So seeing you could not answer that one, how about from another angle ... what benefits are you hoping to materialise??

More bobbies on bicycles. Everyone having cream teas. Walking through quaint villages only hearing the Queen’s English.9 out of 10 cars you see on the roads are made by British Leyland. More Union Jack curb side murals. Flour mills and textile factories shooting up everywhere.

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On 25/02/2021 at 06:39, whelk said:

More bobbies on bicycles. Everyone having cream teas. Walking through quaint villages only hearing the Queen’s English.9 out of 10 cars you see on the roads are made by British Leyland. More Union Jack curb side murals. Flour mills and textile factories shooting up everywhere.

No Sunday trading. Shops shut Wednesday afternoon. Only 2 TV stations (which close down at 11.00hrs) Return of £.s.d. Re-opening of coal mines.
Smoking to be re-introduced as a health related product. Leather footballs and boots with studs nailed in. Corporal punishment in school. Death Penalty.
Oh and the return of compulsory National Service.

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8 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

And parts of Europe now planning to spread the doses out like the UK.

In response the bloke just appointed by The Commission to oversee vaccinations, Thierry Breton said  “No single country can have an autonomous vaccination strategy”. 
 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

In response the bloke just appointed by The Commission to oversee vaccinations, Thierry Breton said  “No single country can have an autonomous vaccination strategy”. 
 

 

Which is weird because we've been told over and over that the complete opposite would have been applicable had we not left the EU.

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4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

In response the bloke just appointed by The Commission to oversee vaccinations, Thierry Breton said  “No single country can have an autonomous vaccination strategy”. 

Was he talking about EU countries or just generally, as in every country is reliant on other countries.

https://www.politico.eu/article/commissions-breton-its-fine-if-eu-countries-buy-vaccines-from-russia-china/

Austria, Denmark, the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia have all joined Hungary in looking to other countries for doses. But Breton isn't worried. If countries want to purchase Russia’s Sputnik V or China’s Sinopharm, "it's fine." Breton even welcomed moves from Austria and Denmark to form a vaccine alliance with Israel — ignoring the Austrian chancellor's targeted criticism that the EU is too slow.

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Whatever your position on it, why should any sport or occupation attempt to sidestep what has been democratically decided?

The UK asked for and agreed these restrictions.

While the 48% just have to accept it, the 52% need to accept their part in imposing it.

 

 

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On 22/02/2021 at 20:49, spyinthesky said:


I appreciate that some things have been adversely affected by Covid but it would be helpful if the Brexiteers on here could explain what benefits have been achieved since our exit from the EU.
 

Although Brexit will create inconveniences in the travel plans of UK citizens (and others) I believe Brexiteers are delighted to have a blue cover on British passports. That makes it all worthwhile.

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24 minutes ago, Kingsland Codger said:

Although Brexit will create inconveniences in the travel plans of UK citizens (and others) I believe Brexiteers are delighted to have a blue cover on British passports. That makes it all worthwhile.

Another poster obsessed with the colour of passports. 

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28 minutes ago, Kingsland Codger said:

Although Brexit will create inconveniences in the travel plans of UK citizens (and others) I believe Brexiteers are delighted to have a blue cover on British passports. That makes it all worthwhile.

What on earth makes you think that Brexiteers want to go abroad? Its full of foreigners - most of whom don't speak English. 

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