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Cardiff/Sala - Missing Plane

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Hi Bill, The head of the rescue/search has said that the sea is too cold and nobody could have survived this long. In my view unless they managed to get into a dinghy. In the absence of flares and an air search covering 1000 sq miles, unlikely. In 1974 I flew up and down a small piece of the channel at very low level for about five hours looking for a body but never saw a thing.

 

There was a piece on the One Show not to long ago about the RNLI Sea Search and Rescue. They showed how difficult it is to spot someone in the water even when the seas are calm and you have good visibility. At night, with a bit of a swell it is nearly impossible. When you factor in the sea temperature and the length of time since anything has been seen, unfortunately this is not going to end well.

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There was a piece on the One Show not to long ago about the RNLI Sea Search and Rescue. They showed how difficult it is to spot someone in the water even when the seas are calm and you have good visibility. At night, with a bit of a swell it is nearly impossible. When you factor in the sea temperature and the length of time since anything has been seen, unfortunately this is not going to end well.

 

With the sea temp, they would have minutes to survive. Unless they are in a dinghy or something (surely, that would have an EPIRB/SART of some description) then no way could they survive this long.

 

If they were in a craft of some description, you would imagine they would have been found by now given the assets looking all day

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I want to know the username of Eric Moody! What a hero, and an excellent episode of Air Crash Investigation.

 

Anyway, I digress.

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I want to know the username of Eric Moody! What a hero, and an excellent episode of Air Crash Investigation.

 

Anyway, I digress.

 

I got to meet Sully at SAP Sapphire in Orlando in 2014 - what a lovely unassuming bloke. Anyway, I mentioned I was on a football forum with the bloke who lost all four engines in an ash cloud and not surprisingly he knew all about it.

 

Also, the best keynote speech I've seen at a conference, opened with the entire ATC recording from takeoff to the ditching, then the lights came up. He made it relevant to IT as well, talking about how systemised procedures in manufacturing, on the ground and in the cockpit had made air travel so much safer.

 

Anyway, almost certainly an RIP to Sala :(

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I want to know the username of Eric Moody! What a hero, and an excellent episode of Air Crash Investigation.

 

Anyway, I digress.

 

Been binge watching Air Crash Investigation on Nat Geo lately, and that particular episode just a couple of weeks ago. Great show.

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I want to know the username of Eric Moody! What a hero, and an excellent episode of Air Crash Investigation.

 

Anyway, I digress.

 

Much as I would like to, Eric wouldn't thank me.

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They have found pieces of wreckage in the area but haven't yet identified them as being part of the aeroplane.

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Much as I would like to, Eric wouldn't thank me.

 

He’s not a regular poster anyway, in fact I can’t remember him posting anything for a few years now.

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He’s not a regular poster anyway, in fact I can’t remember him posting anything for a few years now.

 

Regular reader but hardly ever posts. Often comments to myself and Weston Saint also a reader rather than a poster now. Very disillusioned with the quality.

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Dreadful. He must’ve got in that plane full of excitement and anticipation and it now seems certain he’s ended up dead in the water. Fate is so random and sometimes so cruel.

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It hits home hard, as a football fan and being a Commercial Pilot for a living, it's two things that are very close to me.

 

My thoughts go out to all those touched and hurt by this, and other tragic events that happen daily.

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Apparently Sala whatsapp'd to his parents the plane looked like it was going to fall apart and was scared. Why would you even get on it!

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I live at the most northern part of Guernsey and I heard them going back out again this morning, those waters are notoriously rough, no way has anyone survived being in the water that long imo, the tides are so strong out there I will be surprised if they even find the plane, it is such a sad situation

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Very sad, funny when you dont even know someone and I personally had never heard of him but you feel differently than you do if it was somebody not in the limelight.

 

A couple of thoughts, there is the pilots family as well to consider.

 

Who is going to take the financial hit, Nante Cardiff or Insurance. The insurance company wont pay out straight away and so both clubs have lost the use of funds or a player.

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Sad news but could and should have been avoided.

 

Ridiculous comment (at least until aware of the result of an investigation). Could be applied to every type of accident that's ever happened.

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Very sad, funny when you dont even know someone and I personally had never heard of him but you feel differently than you do if it was somebody not in the limelight.

 

A couple of thoughts, there is the pilots family as well to consider.

 

Who is going to take the financial hit, Nante Cardiff or Insurance. The insurance company wont pay out straight away and so both clubs have lost the use of funds or a player.

 

As I stated earlier in the thread, Cardiff will have to pay Nantes as the transfer was completed. Cardiff may have arranged Insurance on him but a lot of clubs only cover the cost of paying up the contract if something happens to the player (e.g. injured and cannot play again). I very much doubt they have an insurance policy in place to cover their transfer fee (although it probably wasn't paid in one lump sum) so they may well have to take the hit.

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Very sad, funny when you dont even know someone and I personally had never heard of him but you feel differently than you do if it was somebody not in the limelight.
Its the "football family" side of it. I know that that can be seen to be a little bit of a cliché, but in these instances, I do think that it is there.

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I've had a look at the plane. There is something very strange about the operation. Firstly the plane a 1984 Pa46 Malibu 310P was a piston engine aircraft nearly thirty four years old and owned in the US.

 

Why strange? unless the aircraft is leased to either an EU or UK operator and had a current Air Operators Certificate and was being operated professionally in accordance with EU regulations it could be a private arrangement.

 

With such a high value passenger it is unbelievable that he wasn't travelling in a high quality multi engine aircraft. Expensive but reliable. A 34 year old single engine aircraft for at least 150 miles over water just doesn't make sense.

 

The two on board were on the wrong plane at the wrong time. 34 years old and on the US register doesn't make sense. Fatigue due to the age could be a factor bearing in mind the sudden disappearance.

 

The above is just my take on it.

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Regular reader but hardly ever posts. Often comments to myself and Weston Saint also a reader rather than a poster now. Very disillusioned with the quality.

 

Correct Dave. I was with Eric in Corporate on Saturday and he was telling our host about his experiences. He also has said before that if he had to make the decision to ditch on that day he was not expecting to survive. He has been reading the site today

 

Very sad news about Sala and the Pilot. Presumably his WhatsAp message was just as the plane got into trouble but I suspect it will remain a mystery as to what happened.

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Who arranged the plane? I doubt it was the player, so presumably Cardiff City?

 

There could be quite a lot of fall-out here if it was a clapped out old banger.

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I've had a look at the plane. There is something very strange about the operation. Firstly the plane a 1984 Pa46 Malibu 310P was a piston engine aircraft nearly thirty four years old and owned in the US.

 

Why strange? unless the aircraft is leased to either an EU or UK operator and had a current Air Operators Certificate and was being operated professionally in accordance with EU regulations it could be a private arrangement.

 

With such a high value passenger it is unbelievable that he wasn't travelling in a high quality multi engine aircraft. Expensive but reliable. A 34 year old single engine aircraft for at least 150 miles over water just doesn't make sense.

 

The two on board were on the wrong plane at the wrong time. 34 years old and on the US register doesn't make sense. Fatigue due to the age could be a factor bearing in mind the sudden disappearance.

 

The above is just my take on it.

 

With further digging it gets even stranger. The company that the aircraft is connected to is called Southern Aircraft Consultancy, Bungay. They describe themselves as the leading UK company to register aircraft in the US. Nowhere is there any mention of an operator of this aircraft although from another site there appears to be a connection to a chiropractor and company in Minnesota US. This just doesn't feel straightforward as it would be if it was a aircraft registered to a French or EU operator alternatively a UK operator. I'll be interested to see what comes out in due course.

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Correct Dave. I was with Eric in Corporate on Saturday and he was telling our host about his experiences. He also has said before that if he had to make the decision to ditch on that day he was not expecting to survive. He has been reading the site today

 

Very sad news about Sala and the Pilot. Presumably his WhatsAp message was just as the plane got into trouble but I suspect it will remain a mystery as to what happened.

 

Hi Ron, Mike told me on Saturday you and Eric were fine dining.

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Who arranged the plane? I doubt it was the player, so presumably Cardiff City?

 

There could be quite a lot of fall-out here if it was a clapped out old banger.

 

That's going to be the million dollar question and how it was arranged and who supplied and operated it. I thought that there was a rule about single engine commercial flights restricting the flight to over land or a very short distance from the coast. Private flights are unrestricted.

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I've had a look at the plane. There is something very strange about the operation. Firstly the plane a 1984 Pa46 Malibu 310P was a piston engine aircraft nearly thirty four years old and owned in the US.

 

Why strange? unless the aircraft is leased to either an EU or UK operator and had a current Air Operators Certificate and was being operated professionally in accordance with EU regulations it could be a private arrangement.

 

With such a high value passenger it is unbelievable that he wasn't travelling in a high quality multi engine aircraft. Expensive but reliable. A 34 year old single engine aircraft for at least 150 miles over water just doesn't make sense.

 

The two on board were on the wrong plane at the wrong time. 34 years old and on the US register doesn't make sense. Fatigue due to the age could be a factor bearing in mind the sudden disappearance.

 

The above is just my take on it.

 

Hi Derry, I think this would have to be a private arrangement/flight. You can't operate as an AOC flight on a single as far as I am aware, not even a turboprop.

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Hi Derry, I think this would have to be a private arrangement/flight. You can't operate as an AOC flight on a single as far as I am aware, not even a turboprop.

 

That's where I'm getting to. Commercial single engine land planes flights have to be able to force land on land. I found it strange that the aircraft which was pressurised was flying at 5000ft and then descended over Alderney. As I remember you cant fly VFR at night but I'm happy to be corrected. I would have expected an IFR airways based flight at FL100-200 ish.

 

Cardiff City have just announced that they didn't arrange the flight, the player organised it himself. Sounds like a cowboy operation.

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Strange he was saying the plane was falling to bits..

 

 

Well perhaps he wasn't speaking literally. I remember flying on a few old single engine tubs out of Hurn. IIRC it was usually the de-iceing system that didn't work particularly well.

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I'm sure his remark was a flippant comment everyone makes just before getting on a small plane like that.

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I'm sure there is a tweet somewhere saying that the plane attempted to take off 3 or 4 times before it was successful. That had to ring alarm bells.

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Strange he was saying the plane was falling to bits..

 

It's not uncommon. One year I was hearing complaints from crews about a Czech aircraft being used to position a crew from Margarita Island Venezuela to Barbados. Then came my turn. I briefed the First Officer an ex RAF helicopter pilot and turned him loose on the aircraft. The paperwork and lifejackets were out of date. Luggage was being put on the seats. The emergency exits had no handles and the hold had no tie down points or net. As the BALPA rep I had to approve the aircraft. I reported the aircraft and had it grounded. Then found that there was a DC9 schedule that fitted in nicely at a lot less cost. Later that year the aircraft crashed in Venezuela killing all on board.

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Strange he was saying the plane was falling to bits..

 

He could of said it during flight as something was happening, plane could of stuck something or bits did just literally fall off.

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I'm sure there is a tweet somewhere saying that the plane attempted to take off 3 or 4 times before it was successful. That had to ring alarm bells.

 

If that is a fact it's unbelievable because the aircraft had a 1500 mile range, the flight was 225 miles and there were only two people on board so it was probably light. It may have been engine instrument indications. It will be very interesting as the information drips out especially if the media get a sniff and put a savvy investigator on the case.

Edited by derry

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Well perhaps he wasn't speaking literally. I remember flying on a few old single engine tubs out of Hurn. IIRC it was usually the de-iceing system that didn't work particularly well.

 

Yeah that's my reading of it. I think I made the same flippant comment after I had my first flight in a Chipmunk trainer when I was in the Air Cadets in the late 80s.

 

It obviously wasn't actually falling to bits - I was just commenting on the apparent age of the thing (which was fair considering it was around 30-40 years old!)

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That's where I'm getting to. Commercial single engine land planes flights have to be able to force land on land. I found it strange that the aircraft which was pressurised was flying at 5000ft and then descended over Alderney. As I remember you cant fly VFR at night but I'm happy to be corrected. I would have expected an IFR airways based flight at FL100-200 ish.

 

Cardiff City have just announced that they didn't arrange the flight, the player organised it himself. Sounds like a cowboy operation.

 

You can fly VFR at night but you’d be nuts doing it over the Channel in January.

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Ridiculous comment (at least until aware of the result of an investigation). Could be applied to every type of accident that's ever happened.

 

 

If I was in his shoes and had been well paid for a few years there is no way I would have used a plane like that to fly back to Cardiff.

 

Before you ask as ex military yes I have flown in a variety of planes and helicopters. I would never fly in a single engined plane from choice.

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I want to know the username of Eric Moody! What a hero, and an excellent episode of Air Crash Investigation.

 

Eric did reveal himself on a thread a few years ago. Won't post the link here but it's searchable. A true hero indeed.

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Yeah that's my reading of it. I think I made the same flippant comment after I had my first flight in a Chipmunk trainer when I was in the Air Cadets in the late 80s.

 

It obviously wasn't actually falling to bits - I was just commenting on the apparent age of the thing (which was fair considering it was around 30-40 years old!)

Blimey you were lucky that you were able to make that observation, I still had the evacuation film in my head, with the worry that if owt goes wrong, the pilot will be on his toes and gone, leaving me on my own to push the canopy further back, unstrap myself, bail, and pull the D ring, all before I hit the deck!!

 

Talking of old crates, remember being on my first package holiday trip on a Boeing 707, folks were stuffing tissues in the cabin wall joints to block the draft whistling through them.

 

Got to say though, reading Derrys findings i would feel a bit uneasy getting on a 34 year old single engine plane in winter, in the dark, and flying over that expanse of water.

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You can fly VFR at night but you’d be nuts doing it over the Channel in January.

 

You'd be nuts any time of the year. Presumably you're a current pilot, EZY or FR? I'm guessing currently Single engine Commercial IFR flights away from land aren't allowed, but Eric says he thinks Turbo prop exempt in certain EU areas but not UK?

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I am trying to post but am having trouble!i

I am Eric Moody, and I have been a saints supporter since 1946 at the end of the war and a present day ST holder!

I read this forum frequently but rarely post unless upset by the ref.

I do have a view on this accident, it looks very much like a cheapskete charter!

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"rarely post unless upset by the ref" - haha. There are few things more annoying than a bad ref!

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Blimey you were lucky that you were able to make that observation, I still had the evacuation film in my head, with the worry that if owt goes wrong, the pilot will be on his toes and gone, leaving me on my own to push the canopy further back, unstrap myself, bail, and pull the D ring, all before I hit the deck!!

 

Oh and I've just remembered - there was a screw loose on the instrument panel, and it was shaking all over the place with the vibration of the engine! :scared:

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I am trying to post but am having trouble!i

I am Eric Moody, and I have been a saints supporter since 1946 at the end of the war and a present day ST holder!

I read this forum frequently but rarely post unless upset by the ref.

I do have a view on this accident, it looks very much like a cheapskete charter!

 

Thanks Eric. If you have any insights I would be glad to hear of them.

 

"rarely post unless upset by the ref" ? Blimey, I'm surprised we don't hear from you more often ;)

 

I can only echo what has been said above. Flying in a single-engined light aircraft over that expanse of water would be dodgy in summer let alone the middle of winter. I've been flown to Denmark myself in a six-seater single-engined piston aircraft before and that was with two pilots. One of them now owns his own small airline but after he had a nighttime forced landing over thirty years ago he vowed never to fly again at night or in poor weather or with just one engine.

 

My thoughts and condolences are with his family.

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Now i’ve Been successful In posting, it’s obviously all my machines are having trouble with the Quote facility, since the reporting of this incident i have been trying to find out whether the regulations have changed since I last looked.

If you look at EASA single engine operation it may become more clear. The way I read this now single engine flight is allowed over certain EU areas at night and in poor weather in a turbo prop, but not a piston engine. If this was a hire and reward flight then........

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Who arranged the plane? I doubt it was the player, so presumably Cardiff City?

 

There could be quite a lot of fall-out here if it was a clapped out old banger.

 

Cardiff are saying (according to BBC Wales) that the player made his own arrangements and the plane/flight was nothing to do with them.

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For anybody interested here is a link to a BBC interview with David Henderson the pilot of N264DB in 2015. He gives a tour of that aircraft. It looks like he was operating it since then.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk>news>my-life-as-a-ferry-pilot

 

That doesn't seem to work. Google David Henderson ferry pilot brings up my life as a ferry pilot BBC news you'll see the link

Edited by derry

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