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4 minutes ago, Hockey_saint said:

Nigel Farage has attended quite a few far right rallies and was in Tulsa earlier....same same.

Not it’s not. The world is being made to feel racist for not conforming 

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1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

No its more about opinions being dismissed because of the perceived skin colour of the individuals saying it. I don't like racism however it manifests and that's one clear example. Also ignoring dissenting voices from black people as well as if their voices don't matter or are less important.

 

Unfortunately it's very hateful to dismiss opinions of organisations with dodgy views because you think the person holding that view has white skin. The only think I'm offended by is being judged by my perceived skin colour. 

Who is ignoring dissenting black voices?

Furthermore, in the same way if I want to know what it is like to be a doctor I would ask a doctor, if I want to talk about systemic racial discrimination I would ask someone who has experienced it. Not sure why this idea upsets you so? Does experience not matter anymore? I thought the right were all about facts and logic, why would I trust someones opinion who had no idea what systemic racial discrimination feels like on the subject?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

It’s not ‘an aspect’ though, he isn’t protesting council tax rises or increased rail fares. Without everything the poppy represents we wouldn’t exist as a free country, it’s fundamental to what he is able to do.

 

He shouldn’t be forced to commemorate things I agree on that. He has the right to be a hypocrite but he has to accept the flak that comes with it. Turning his back on the wreath was a step to far. That would be like a player not only refusing to take a knee but standing with his back to his teammates whilst they do it.

 

Without a lot of things you undoubtedly disagree with we wouldn't be a free country either. The USSR had more troops die fighting Nazi Germany than the US and the UK put together and almost quadruple what the UK sent. Does that mean you are a hypocrite if you don't celebrate Stalin?

Edited by TWar

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8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No its more about opinions being dismissed because of the perceived skin colour of the individuals saying it. I don't like racism however it manifests and that's one clear example. Also ignoring dissenting voices from black people as well as if their voices don't matter or are less important.

 

Unfortunately it's very hateful to dismiss opinions of organisations with dodgy views because you think the person holding that view has white skin. The only think I'm offended by is being judged by my perceived skin colour. 

Green?

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2 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

Wonder when Le Tiss is next scheduled to be on Sky. Interesting to see what he wears. Should stick a kick it out badge on instead.

That's actually a really good idea. I hope he does. 

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9 minutes ago, iansums said:

Well that depends on your definition of far right, I think yours will differ to mine.

Yeah in which case that will depend on your definition of far left then as well....as I say, same same. 

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1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

It's not easy as I'm sure you can imagine. 

I have a number of green friends and a Kermit the frog album.

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2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's actually a really good idea. I hope he does. 

might be a good idea as it's football-specific.

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3 minutes ago, Hockey_saint said:

Yeah in which case that will depend on your definition of far left then as well....as I say, same same. 

Although if Nigel Farage described himself as a fascist it would be pretty clear that he was far right. 

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7 minutes ago, Raging Bull said:

Not it’s not. The world is being made to feel racist for not conforming 

Quite. Isn't the whole point of racism is that you dont judge people by the colour of their skin. So by that very definition BLM is judging people by the colour of their skin. The best interview i've ever seen was Morgan Freeman and i completely agree with his view. The way to stop racism is to stop going on about it. It's absolutely ridiculous that they are looking at every single thing now and trying to find hidden racism and as you say making the world feel racist. However,  I guess not talking about it and making it a huge issue doesn't give white people the chance to be outraged by it and to show how they arent racist.

 

 

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Just now, hypochondriac said:

Although if Nigel Farage described himself as a fascist it would be pretty clear that he was far right. 

He'd never do that though; too busy cultivating an image as an "average bloke down the pub with a fag in his hand".

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Just now, Hockey_saint said:

He'd never do that though; too busy cultivating an image as an "average bloke down the pub with a fag in his hand".

My point is that a self described fascist is almost certain to be far left just as a self described Marxist would be. 

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Just now, hypochondriac said:

My point is that a self described fascist is almost certain to be far left just as a self described Marxist would be. 

Weird that Marxism is seen as the other end of the spectrum to Fascism when one is an economic ideology about the ownership of the means of production and the distribution of power and the other is the act of racial purification through genocide. Seems a pretty shitty equivocation.

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1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

My point is that a self described fascist is almost certain to be far left just as a self described Marxist would be. 

When you get that far along the sides tend to blur into one. Hitler sent communists to death camps so he was no socialist but Oswald Moseley was, at one time, close to being Labour leader and did come up with some very interesting nationalisation of industry ideas....then became the head of the British fascists when it was fashionable to do so...lots of their views, the far left and far right do often merge; you're right about that.

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1 minute ago, TWar said:

Weird that Marxism is seen as the other end of the spectrum to Fascism when one is an economic ideology about the ownership of the means of production and the distribution of power and the other is the act of racial purification through genocide. Seems a pretty shitty equivocation.

It's probably more about the means in which they take control of production. I see fascism as direct and certain interpretations of Marxism as indirect but with the same result.

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11 minutes ago, TWar said:

Without a lot of things you undoubtedly disagree with we wouldn't be a free country either. The USSR had more troops die fighting Nazi Germany than the US and the UK put together and almost quadruple what the UK sent. Does that mean you are a hypocrite if you don't celebrate Stalin?

Completely false analogy, for three reasons. You’re talking about celebrating a dictator in a country I have nothing to do with.
 

A more accurate comparison would be if I moved to play in the Russian League for a massive pot full of roubles and during their armed forces Remembrance Day I turned my back on their wreath/veterans because half my family was American and a bunch of them were killed in the Korean War.

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Just now, Hockey_saint said:

It's probably more about the means in which they take control of production. I see fascism as direct and certain interpretations of Marxism as indirect but with the same result.

Well all economic ideologies control power through governmental force. So really you should throw capitalism into that same result too. Expecially when you consider the countless that have died in wars for commodities, those left to starve while others live in excess, those who live and die in slave-like conditions in third world countries just to facilitate cheaper trainers. The thing is, ideologies in general have causal links to murder in one sense or another. Marxism can be done without mass-murder, as can capitalism. Fascism is, by definition, mass murder.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Completely false analogy, for three reasons. You’re talking about celebrating a dictator in a country I have nothing to do with.
 

A more accurate comparison would be if I moved to play in the Russian League for a massive pot full of roubles and during their armed forces Remembrance Day I turned my back on their wreath/veterans because half my family was American and a bunch of them were killed in the Korean War.

You have everything to do with him. If Russia, and by extension him, didn't support us how they did, then you would be speaking German right now. How is that any different to what British soldiers did for you? Stalin personally improved your life by allowing you to live in a free country, are you going to thank him?

Edited by TWar

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50 minutes ago, TWar said:

Without a lot of things you undoubtedly disagree with we wouldn't be a free country either. The USSR had more troops die fighting Nazi Germany than the US and the UK put together and almost quadruple what the UK sent. Does that mean you are a hypocrite if you don't celebrate Stalin?

Sadly Stalin like Chairman Mao were responsible for killing 10's of millions of their own people. Pretty hard to celebrate such people.

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2 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Sadly Stalin like Chairman Mao were responsible for killing 10's of millions of their own people. Pretty hard to celebrate such people.

Yep. So winning world war 2 doesnt mean you should be automatically grateful if the country then goes on to kill people. My point exactly.

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1 minute ago, TWar said:

Yep. So winning world war 2 doesnt mean you should be automatically grateful if the country then goes on to kill people. My point exactly.

The massacre was going on before the war of course, not went on to do

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35 minutes ago, TWar said:

You have everything to do with him. If Russia, and by extension him, didn't support us how they did, then you would be speaking German right now. How is that any different to what British soldiers did for you? Stalin personally improved your life by allowing you to live in a free country, are you going to thank him?

If you can’t see the massive difference between this analogy and deliberately disrespecting the fallen servicemen of a country you chose to emigrate to, I can’t be bothered explaining it and it’s of little interest to anyone else.

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2 minutes ago, OldNick said:

The massacre was going on before the war of course, not went on to do

Yeah the UK did horrible things preWW2 as well.

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6 minutes ago, TWar said:

Yeah the UK did horrible things preWW2 as well.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths millions of Russians , a large number of which were added to the WW2 figures . This is not to say that they didn't suffer horendous treatment as a result of Hitlers invasion of Russia . Hitler's obsession with Russia as the real enemy probably helped to end the battle of Britain .  

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17 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Back on topic please everyone. We don’t need more threads about Brexit and Hitler.

Ok, Mein Fuhrer

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2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Quite. Isn't the whole point of racism is that you dont judge people by the colour of their skin. So by that very definition BLM is judging people by the colour of their skin. The best interview i've ever seen was Morgan Freeman and i completely agree with his view. The way to stop racism is to stop going on about it. It's absolutely ridiculous that they are looking at every single thing now and trying to find hidden racism and as you say making the world feel racist. However,  I guess not talking about it and making it a huge issue doesn't give white people the chance to be outraged by it and to show how they arent racist.

 

 

That's the ideal world we would live in. But unfortunately, in reality things haven't and aren't playing out like that. Racism is an issue, in this country and many others. Pretending it doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away. That's why we need to speak on it. It's important to understand one anothers lived experiences and how those experiences differ based on aspects that should not be an issue (like race). 

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Neef said:

That's the ideal world we would live in. But unfortunately, in reality things haven't and aren't playing out like that. Racism is an issue, in this country and many others. Pretending it doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away. That's why we need to speak on it. It's important to understand one anothers lived experiences and how those experiences differ based on aspects that should not be an issue (like race). 

So what has going on about it achieved? We've had anti racism groups, protests and marches for decades, yet you say racism is still an issue. Whatever you think of BLM and their agenda it's pretty inarguable that what they have been is divisive, even a lot of black people dont support them. Morgan Freeman is right, dont call him a black man, call him Morgan Freeman. Remember the Sky advert from the 90's what do you see a black man, a french man or a footballer? So asking us not to see colour then telling us to do exactly that by telling us there aren't enough black managers. It's contradictory to the aim, how can you ask people not to see colour, then tell them they need to see colour when it suits them because black people are under represented or celebrate black history month or whatever. The uncomfortable reality is that many, many black people find quotas and positive discrimination patronising. It's like white people need to make sure they help them because they cant help themselves. Unfortunately people falling over themselves to prove how un-racist they are is actually rather patronising and a bit racist itself. 

Edited by Turkish
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I see that the Premier league have panicked and released a statement saying that their support of black lives matter is not an endorsement of black lives matter. Maybe they should have looked into this a bit more before jumping on the bandwagon and tarnishing their brand with this extremism stuff. Why not use kick it out or kick racism out of football from the outset? Why even risk having your sports brand and competition getting tangled up in this mess? I expect they will learn from this but not without damage already having been done. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I see that the Premier league have panicked and released a statement saying that their support of black lives matter is not an endorsement of black lives matter. Maybe they should have looked into this a bit more before jumping on the bandwagon and tarnishing their brand with this extremism stuff. Why not use kick it out or kick racism out of football from the outset? Why even risk having your sports brand and competition getting tangled up in this mess? I expect they will learn from this but not without damage already having been done. 

Looks like Patrice Evra was the first  pundit to ditch his BLM badge. Symbolic really, as he was subject to an infamous racist incident. Shame some politicians weren’t a bit more forensic before  jumping on the bandwagon. 
 

Hopefully taking the knee will be next as the game finally comes to its senses. 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter

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2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Looks like Patrice Evra was the first  pundit to ditch his BLM badge. Symbolic really, as he was subject to an infamous racist incident. Shame some politicians weren’t a bit more forensic before  jumping on the bandwagon. 
 

Hopefully taking the knee will be next as the game finally comes to its senses. 

I am sure I read somewhere that a Championship team already ditched the 'knee' last night

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Looks like Patrice Evra was the first  pundit to ditch his BLM badge. Symbolic really, as he was subject to an infamous racist incident. Shame some politicians weren’t a bit more forensic when jumping on the bandwagon. 
 

Hopefully taking the knee will be next as the game finally comes to its senses. 

Everyone were just so desperate not to be jumped on by the twitter mob and called racist that they just went along with it. To be fair to them they didn't have much of a chance when even the police officers were taking a knee. Like you say, hopefully they can restore a bit of sanity shortly and write this episode off to the stir crazy madness of lockdown. 

The backlash took a while to come but it looks like sanity is being restored: 

 

 

Screenshot_20200701-110318_Parler.jpg

Edited by hypochondriac

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41 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I see that the Premier league have panicked and released a statement saying that their support of black lives matter is not an endorsement of black lives matter. Maybe they should have looked into this a bit more before jumping on the bandwagon and tarnishing their brand with this extremism stuff. Why not use kick it out or kick racism out of football from the outset? Why even risk having your sports brand and competition getting tangled up in this mess? I expect they will learn from this but not without damage already having been done. 

People are slowly starting to wake up to this. A lot of organisations and individuals jumped on the bandwagon without checking who was driving it. 

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2 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

People are slowly starting to wake up to this. A lot of organisations and individuals jumped on the bandwagon without checking who was driving it. 

What's mad is how quickly it has all escalated from the awful death of a black man to mass censorship, people losing jobs, statues being torn down, riots, mass corporate acceptance, fake stories about nooses, millions raised by people calling for the defunding of the police and various sports all joining in. I genuinely think its the effects of the lockdown. 

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27 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What's mad is how quickly it has all escalated from the awful death of a black man to mass censorship, people losing jobs, statues being torn down, riots, mass corporate acceptance, fake stories about nooses, millions raised by people calling for the defunding of the police and various sports all joining in. I genuinely think its the effects of the lockdown. 

I feel that everything that has happened in the last few months is part of of a malevolent agenda.

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28 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What's mad is how quickly it has all escalated from the awful death of a black man to mass censorship, people losing jobs, statues being torn down, riots, mass corporate acceptance, fake stories about nooses, millions raised by people calling for the defunding of the police and various sports all joining in. I genuinely think its the effects of the lockdown. 

maybe, but there are also a lot of very self righteous people desperate to prove they aren't racist, along with a lot of other groups, like Antifa, who will jump on any cause to push their own agenda, all supported by a media who are all over anything like this. Thrown in lock down and its a perfect storm. It's odd how people will excuse or condemn almost anything if it means they can appear not racist. 

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3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Everyone were just so desperate not to be jumped on by the twitter mob and called racist that they just went along with it. To be fair to them they didn't have much of a chance when even the police officers were taking a knee. Like you say, hopefully they can restore a bit of sanity shortly and write this episode off to the stir crazy madness of lockdown. 

The backlash took a while to come but it looks like sanity is being restored: 

 

 

Screenshot_20200701-110318_Parler.jpg

Fascists 😛

The "diverse" picture of the "British Forces" reminds me of seeing Burnley's first team squad picture from last season.... it wasn't the most diverse squad I've ever seen.  

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2 hours ago, Turkish said:

maybe, but there are also a lot of very self righteous people desperate to prove they aren't racist, along with a lot of other groups, like Antifa, who will jump on any cause to push their own agenda, all supported by a media who are all over anything like this. Thrown in lock down and its a perfect storm. It's odd how people will excuse or condemn almost anything if it means they can appear not racist. 

Such as?

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I think the BLM statement is fantastic. Firstly what are the illegal state of Israel doing in European Competitions anyway. Secondly UEFA can fine clubs for using the Palestinian Logo or allowing fans to fly the flag as per Celtic and Saints played Shapoel Be’er Sheeva. So if BLM add a Palestinian flag to their logo they be screwed ( the FA).

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56 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Such as?

"Largely peaceful" protests that led to over 20 police officers injured and 140 arrests along with kelloggs being accused of racism due to having a monkey on the box of coco pops are just two of many examples. 

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56 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Such as?

Ok I'll try - BAME are unfairly penalised by Covid-19 due to the negligent and disgraceful actions of our Government.

Conversely, BLM should be afforded the right to protest their unfair treatment during the lockdown imposed by the Government for everyone's safety, and are exempt from following the Government's guidance on social distancing which has been implemented to keep the public safe. If there is any health risk to the protestors as a consequence of the protests, it must not be mentioned publicly in case of negative attention.

I don't have a problem of looking at BLM from the perspective of Colin Kaepernick being unfairly blacklisted for years by the NFL, and not sure what is wrong with expressing support for Palestine either but I would consider the above to be an example of the doublethink that people may find bewildering. Defunding the UK police seems a particularly ill-judged concept. If that is the hill they have chosen to die on then this will fizzle out with a wimper. I expect the mass kneeling will continue until the end of the season but beyond that it will be restricted to the odd goal celebration. There are enough silences already and we could have had two per game after the terrorist attack the other week.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, manji said:

I think the BLM statement is fantastic. Firstly what are the illegal state of Israel doing in European Competitions anyway. 

Israel is not an “illegal “ state. Denying Jews the right of self determination is actually anti Semitic by the working definition from the IHRA. 

The reason it’s in European football is because other countries refused to play against it.

you can critique Israel all you like but when you start  with this “Zionist “ pony ,you’re wandering into Anti Semitic territory (if you don’t believe me, look up Dr Kings words on this). Mentioning or implying Zionist conspiracies is anti Semitic, again by the definition adopted by most countries and organisations.

Im sure you do think it’s “great” when BLM make statements about Zionist conspiracies and I’m sure you don’t think it should be considered anti Semitic. However, just like Tommy Robinson doesn’t get to decide what’s racist and what isn’t. You or BLM don’t get to decide what’s anti Semitic and what isn’t. 
 

I presume you’re ok with BLM oxford posting this invite to their event. Using an image that even Jeremy Corbyn accepted was anti Semitic.

 

 

3CE37ABA-359C-4023-A168-188711A95ABE.png

Edited by Lord Duckhunter

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It's good to see that the PL have clarified their Black Lives Matter slogan is not endorsing any particular group or anything political, Think most reasonably intelligent people knew this already though.

Hopefully now the bed-wetters worried about the police being defunded etc can now stop picking holes in what is obviously a movement for good.

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6 hours ago, Turkish said:

"Largely peaceful" protests that led to over 20 police officers injured and 140 arrests along with kelloggs being accused of racism due to having a monkey on the box of coco pops are just two of many examples. 

How about the latest attempts to redesign the medal you get for a knighthood because someone thinks it looks a little bit like how George floyd was murdered? Even sir Michael Palin is backing it (why Michael? I really thought you were great!) 

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13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How about the latest attempts to redesign the medal you get for a knighthood because someone thinks it looks a little bit like how George floyd was murdered? Even sir Michael Palin is backing it (why Michael? I really thought you were great!) 

You better be careful. If our clubs like Pontypool RFC, you’ll end up banned. 
 

 

C3CF60F8-D096-4C7A-B323-2EEA76779833.jpeg

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