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Forster or McCarthy?


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On 13/02/2021 at 00:49, aussiesaint20 said:

Just on his penalty record alone he has to stay. 

Fraser has saved 15 of 37 over his career. 
Alex's record is 3 of 25 

Interesting statistic, especially after today.

How many did FF save for us out of interest. My recollection was that FF was a lot less agile than McCarthy but I was reminded the other day that he had saved one at Anfield.

Edited by Badger
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Thing is McCarthy is only really good at shot stopping and he's not doing that, so what else does he bring? Not very much, his distribution is poor (and often creates opportunities for the opposition or slows us down or just gives the oppo the ball back) and his communication/leadership at the back does not seem great either, he seems rather quiet for a keeper IMO. 

Forster on the other hand, from recent games seems rather more of a commanding presence and seems to have better distribution as well. Plus he's a giant lump who tends to make himself big so even if his shot stopping might not be up to in an form McCarthy he often just makes up for it by just getting in the way.

And McCarthy is not in form, his shot stopping is not up there, McCarthy from the summer saves that shot today IMO, but I also think probably Forster in current state (certainly at peak state) does as well and even if he doesn't its more likely to hit him. 

Neither of them are great options, we need a better keeper, but I think of the two, I'd be inclined to give Forster the nod because he seems more back to his old confidence self and McCarthy does not seem to be confident. 

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It’s laughable the way Forster being talked up by some. All of a sudden he’s better with his feet, organises the defenders and makes saves. All this whist sat on the bench. The fact is he was complete pony before being dropped and is only at the club because nobody else wants him or thinks he earns his monster wage. We’ve got beat by 9 twice and he still can’t get a game, not because Ralph has a vendetta or because he’s clueless, he doesn’t play league games because he’s pony. 
 

As Bill Shankly once said to a reserve after witnessing a poor defeat “how bad must you be to not get in this side”. McCarthy’s detractors need to ask the same question, how bad must he be to be behind McCarthy. 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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Fraser has taken the mantle of being a better player the longer he's out of the side.

The fact is that none of our keepers are great, they are all bog average and capable of cock ups and stupid slips. We are putting more pressure on them due to the way we play (from the back) which can highlight their lack of ability sometimes. McCarthy is probably the best we have with that. Would anyone trust Fraser playing short front he back? Really? He struggles to move his feet in between his goal.

This is an area that is in serious need of investment, but once again our shit show recruitment department lumbered us with another 'same' player in Angus Gunn. No different to what we had already.

I really hope we've seen the last of our recruitment disasters because it's killing us.

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1 hour ago, tajjuk said:

Thing is McCarthy is only really good at shot stopping and he's not doing that, so what else does he bring? Not very much, his distribution is poor (and often creates opportunities for the opposition or slows us down or just gives the oppo the ball back) and his communication/leadership at the back does not seem great either, he seems rather quiet for a keeper IMO. 

Forster on the other hand, from recent games seems rather more of a commanding presence and seems to have better distribution as well. Plus he's a giant lump who tends to make himself big so even if his shot stopping might not be up to in an form McCarthy he often just makes up for it by just getting in the way.

And McCarthy is not in form, his shot stopping is not up there, McCarthy from the summer saves that shot today IMO, but I also think probably Forster in current state (certainly at peak state) does as well and even if he doesn't its more likely to hit him. 

Neither of them are great options, we need a better keeper, but I think of the two, I'd be inclined to give Forster the nod because he seems more back to his old confidence self and McCarthy does not seem to be confident. 

I think you sum up the problem nicely. I will add Forster seems to pass the easy balls but hits it out of sight if there is a whiff of danger, something McCarthy seems oblivious of. I also sense the defence has lost some confidence in McCarthy and are on edge. They seem a lot calmer with Forster.  The other thing is with Forster's long kicking when danger threatens we don't get bogged down losing the ball as we did today and as he angles his long kicks we seem to get pressure on opponents wide way up the field. He has also kept three clean sheets against Liverpool, Arsenal and Wolves. I know what he was like until he injured his knee, He had a bit of a purple patch when we had a great undefeated run under Koeman. He completely lost his confidence after that. He went to Celtic and was brilliant. His one man performance against Rangers won the cup for Celtic. Give the man a go.

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It's time to give FF a run of league games. He's had his problems and was very poor a few years ago before he got dropped, but he's seemed solid in each of his 4 games so far this season.

One thing I noticed, and others have alluded to, is confidence. McCarthy seems very nervous at the moment and it seems to make our back 4 nervous too. 

There were three times today I counted when he started to come for crosses and then stopped, which panicked our backline (once with Bertrand at end of 1st half) and a free kick in second half). 

He also didn't communicate with KWP when there was a simple header back to him in the 2nd half, instead KWP headed it out and then was immediately under pressure from a Wolves player and ended up giving away a corner.

To me, it's no coincidence our four most recent solid defence displays have all been when AM hasn't been playing. 

Time for a change. 

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7 minutes ago, supersonic said:

It's time to give FF a run of league games. He's had his problems and was very poor a few years ago before he got dropped, but he's seemed solid in each of his 4 games so far this season.

One thing I noticed, and others have alluded to, is confidence. McCarthy seems very nervous at the moment and it seems to make our back 4 nervous too. 

There were three times today I counted when he started to come for crosses and then stopped, which panicked our backline (once with Bertrand at end of 1st half) and a free kick in second half). 

He also didn't communicate with KWP when there was a simple header back to him in the 2nd half, instead KWP headed it out and then was immediately under pressure from a Wolves player and ended up giving away a corner.

To me, it's no coincidence our four most recent solid defence displays have all been when AM hasn't been playing. 

Time for a change. 

McCarthy is nowhere near vocal enough.

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To be honest, at the moment neither McCarthy or Forster inspire too much confidence in me. It's quite strange though that after the last 9, Gunn was immediately dropped and hardly ever seen again, yet McCarthy continues in goal. Am not saying that Forster is any better than McCarthy, but I do think he needs to be dropped and Forster given another go. The goal today was really disappointing in the fact that McCarthy just stood where he was and made no attempt to close down or spread himself in anyway. I'm no keeper, but in teams I have played in, the keeper was always told to make himself big. It doesn't matter what part of the body you save the ball with. For me, Forster just seems to have a bigger presence between the sticks. He has done nothing wrong in the games he has played in this season. 

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3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s laughable the way Forster being talked up by some. All of a sudden he’s better with his feet, organises the defenders and makes saves. All this whist sat on the bench. The fact is he was complete pony before being dropped and is only at the club because nobody else wants him or thinks he earns his monster wage. We’ve got beat by 9 twice and he still can’t get a game, not because Ralph has a vendetta or because he’s clueless, he doesn’t play league games because he’s pony. 
 

As Bill Shankly once said to a reserve after witnessing a poor defeat “how bad must you be to not get in this side”. McCarthy’s detractors need to ask the same question, how bad must he be to be behind McCarthy. 

Except Celtic wanted him and have clearly looked worse this year without him. 

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11 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

Except Celtic wanted him and have clearly looked worse this year without him. 

They can’t have wanted him that much, otherwise they’d have him. If you think their poor season is down to not having him in nets , you really have lost the plot. I suggest you look in the dug out. speaking of which, there’s a bloke in our dugout who sees him day  in day out. Why do you think you see something he doesn’t, you can only have seen him in 4 games. 
 

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17 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s laughable the way Forster being talked up by some. All of a sudden he’s better with his feet, organises the defenders and makes saves. All this whist sat on the bench. The fact is he was complete pony before being dropped and is only at the club because nobody else wants him or thinks he earns his monster wage. We’ve got beat by 9 twice and he still can’t get a game, not because Ralph has a vendetta or because he’s clueless, he doesn’t play league games because he’s pony. 
 

As Bill Shankly once said to a reserve after witnessing a poor defeat “how bad must you be to not get in this side”. McCarthy’s detractors need to ask the same question, how bad must he be to be behind McCarthy. 

Exactly this. For people to suddenly be saying Forster's got good distribution and a commanding presence. What? Those are the exact attributes he lacks and why he was dropped. Our entire game plan involves playing out from the back and he has terrible distribution, he can only hoof it long. He's poor with the ball at his feet and he doesn't come for crosses. He's got decent reactions and is a good shot stopper, but Mcarthy is the better all round keeper for me.

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Just now, st alex said:

Exactly this. For people to suddenly be saying Forster's got good distribution and a commanding presence. What? Those are the exact attributes he lacks and why he was dropped. Our entire game plan involves playing out from the back and he has terrible distribution, he can only hoof it long. He's poor with the ball at his feet and he doesn't come for crosses. He's got decent reactions and is a good shot stopper, but Mcarthy is the better all round keeper for me.

It's the age old ''they become a better player whilst not playing'' way of thinking.

But you're right, he is absolutely hopeless with the ball at his feet and he can't move his feet or body quick enough, that's always been his problem. So we'd be expecting him to come in and play a sweeper keeper! It would be a complete recipe for disaster. McCarthy is as good as we've got for that goal keeper role, he's not great, no, none of our goal keepers are particularly suited to it (great scouting, once again) but he's the best of the bunch.

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McCarthy has pulled off some worldies this season, he is at least part of the reason we had our good run. Yes he's made two balls ups playing out of defense that's lead to two goals, and the goals have started pouring in, but that's in a side where chaos has resumed for a variety of well known reasons. He was  being talked about in terms of an England call up before we went on this run. 

Forster has had almost nothing to do in the cup run which has seen us face a succession of weakened teams who have posed little threat.  I don't think Forster is the answer to anything, he is back up, that's all. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

It's the age old ''they become a better player whilst not playing'' way of thinking.

But you're right, he is absolutely hopeless with the ball at his feet and he can't move his feet or body quick enough, that's always been his problem. So we'd be expecting him to come in and play a sweeper keeper! It would be a complete recipe for disaster. McCarthy is as good as we've got for that goal keeper role, he's not great, no, none of our goal keepers are particularly suited to it (great scouting, once again) but he's the best of the bunch.

I don't think any of our keepers were bought for their ability with their feet apart from Gunn. It's not until Hassenhuttl started asking them to play it out from the back that it's been a problem because before then they were just whacking it upfield (or off for a throw in)

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Forster hasn't become better in absentia. He's still incredibly limited and technically flawed.

But he has strung together a whole 4 competent games - which at this moment in time is in stark contrast to McCarthy, who has conceded 20 goals from the last 37 shots he's faced.

It may make no difference whatsoever to change keepers, but as our current number one has the saves-to-shots ratio you might expect of a wheelie bin, how much can it hurt to try something else?

Edited by qwertyell
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1 hour ago, qwertyell said:

 

But he has strung together a whole 4 competent games - which at this moment in time is in stark contrast to McCarthy, who has conceded 20 goals from the last 37 shots he's faced.

 

I think McCarthy would have kept clean sheets against The Mighty Shrewsbury, Arsenal reserves, Wolves reserves & an off colour Liverpool. All of a sudden it’s a wonderful feat of goalkeeping greatness. “4 clean sheets in 4 games”, let’s drop McCarthy. I’ll tell you this much, we’d have conceded a hell of a lot more with lurch in nets this season than McCarthy has. 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I think McCarthy would have kept clean sheets against The Mighty Shrewsbury, Arsenal reserves, Wolves reserves & an off colour Liverpool. All of a sudden it’s a wonderful feat of goalkeeping greatness. “4 clean sheets in 4 games”, let’s drop McCarthy. I’ll tell you this much, we’d have conceded a hell of a lot more with lurch in nets this season than McCarthy has. 

5 shots on target in all of those 4 games too, 5 shots on targets faced in 360 minutes of football, did he even make any decent saves in any of those games? I cant remember any.

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2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

5 shots on target in all of those 4 games too, 5 shots on targets faced in 360 minutes of football, did he even make any decent saves in any of those games? I cant remember any.

Decent one from Nketia

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10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

5 shots on target in all of those 4 games too, 5 shots on targets faced in 360 minutes of football, did he even make any decent saves in any of those games? I cant remember any.

If the argument was whether McCarthy was any good, or good enough, saying he’s not is a pretty reasonable position. Claiming Forster is better, is clearly not. Then claiming “4 clean sheets” as justification is laughable. 

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26 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If the argument was whether McCarthy was any good, or good enough, saying he’s not is a pretty reasonable position. Claiming Forster is better, is clearly not. Then claiming “4 clean sheets” as justification is laughable. 

McCarthy isn't very good at the moment so persisting with him rather than giving someone who hasn't proven one way or other a chance seems like a brilliant way of carrying in being crap.

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1 hour ago, StrangelyBrown said:

McCarthy isn't very good at the moment so persisting with him rather than giving someone who hasn't proven one way or other a chance seems like a brilliant way of carrying in being crap.

Just shows how pony Forster is. He  can’t even get a game when an average keeper is struggling. 

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On 15/02/2021 at 19:35, StrangelyBrown said:

McCarthy isn't very good at the moment so persisting with him rather than giving someone who hasn't proven one way or other a chance seems like a brilliant way of carrying in being crap.

That feels like strange logic to me as he's not the reason we've been struggling. There are bigger issues elsewhere on the pitch.

For me that's equivalent to having a faulty clutch and battery on your car but rather than address those you swap out the CD player for a tape deck.

Edited by st alex
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8 hours ago, Singapore Saint said:

Obviously Forster, McCarthy can't save a penalty to save his life.

I do hope this is an attempt at humour. Understand, keepers aren't expected to save penalties. They are attempting to stop a ball kicked at them from 12 yards out at a speed of roughly 70 mph into an area 24 feet x 8 feet. If a keeper saves a good penalty then it's a massive bonus and almost purely down to luck.

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51 minutes ago, cloggy saint said:

I do hope this is an attempt at humour. Understand, keepers aren't expected to save penalties. They are attempting to stop a ball kicked at them from 12 yards out at a speed of roughly 70 mph into an area 24 feet x 8 feet. If a keeper saves a good penalty then it's a massive bonus and almost purely down to luck.

But some keepers are much better at it than others.

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McCarthy has saved 3/27 pens on target (11%) in his career. Forster 39%. Davis 26%. Keeper isn't expected to save a well hit penalty that's placed in the corner but that said no many pens are not hit that well and many nowhere near the corner. Mounts pen wasnt great but didn't need to be as McCarthy never looks capable of saving one. 

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2 hours ago, cloggy saint said:

Understand, keepers aren't expected to save penalties. They are attempting to stop a ball kicked at them from 12 yards out at a speed of roughly 70 mph into an area 24 feet x 8 feet. If a keeper saves a good penalty then it's a massive bonus and almost purely down to luck.

Luck is not a thing that manifests in reality. Some goalkeepers have significantly better penalty save ratios than others (in part) because they are better at reading the body language of the attacker to determine what they intend to do.

Edited by Matthew Le God
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11 hours ago, OldNick said:

Peter Shilton or Niemi wouldnt have got a game in your world then

Shilton was also my first thought on reading the post you were replying to.

Friend of mine said during the 1990 World Cup semi-final as it neared penalties England should take Shilton off with a couple of minutes to go and replace him with Dave Beasant, as Shilts doesn’t save penalties.

A good point, but very few would select Beasant ahead of Shilton in their line up.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

FFS arguing about who is better at saving pens is like arguing which full back should be in the side based on throw in technique. 
 

Brilliant, lurch saves the occasional penalty, let’s drop a better keeper in case we give one away. 

Couldn't agree more.  There's been a lot of bigging up of Forster in the wake of the 9-0 and a couple of McCarthy faux pas'.    Cast your minds back and remember just how bad FF was for us, time and again.   I wish him no will ill and he probably deserves to  keep the Cup jersey, but let's not get carried away with the russian roulette of penalty stats and a few quiet evenings in the FA Cup.

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General view that he played alright last night?

I wasn’t overly convinced for the first goal, just left standing. I think he was left flapping at the disallowed goal and there was a moment in the second half whereby he looked all over the place. 
of course, with more game time, and I imagine he’s here for a while now, he will get more match fit. 
I’m not his biggest fan and though Macca is not Dino Zoff, don’t think he’s worse than FF. 

seemed to me to be a desperate idea to change something for the sake of it, because everything isn’t working. 

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Played ok last night.  Decent off his line, and made a superb save low to his left, albeit being offside.

He was made to look a bit foolish dealing with a high ball in his 6 yard box, but replays show he was clearly fouled by Calvert-Lewin.

One major plus was that you could clearly hear him talking.  Something that isn’t in McCarthy’s game.

Did nothing to deserve being dropped.

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2 hours ago, Noodles34 said:

General view that he played alright last night?

I wasn’t overly convinced for the first goal, just left standing. I think he was left flapping at the disallowed goal and there was a moment in the second half whereby he looked all over the place. 
of course, with more game time, and I imagine he’s here for a while now, he will get more match fit. 
I’m not his biggest fan and though Macca is not Dino Zoff, don’t think he’s worse than FF. 

seemed to me to be a desperate idea to change something for the sake of it, because everything isn’t working. 

Such a joke that we're paying 2 pretty average keepers £150k+ a week between them. 

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I was against Macca being dropped but Forster was a different keeper to when he last played for us. He commanded his area taking crosses.

He did nothing for him to lose his place IMO

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Yet another composed performance from Fraser. Made a great save from another offside chance which apparently isn't allowed to be mentioned, and looks so assured. He commands his box far better than McCarthy and his handling is far better too. Why has it taken so long?

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9 minutes ago, stevy777_x said:

How many shots has Forster faced in those 6 games? 

Certainly more than enough for McCarthy to have let in another 6 or more goals to add to his tally. 

Edited by Nordic Saint
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Class.

 

Hopefully everyone sees what this rejuvenated Forster brings to the team now.

 

I know some on here are a bit slow on the take up and sadly Ralph too sometimes. But he’s here now and we are better for it.

clean sheet salute.

 

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Really enjoy seeing Forster back to how he was at Celtic the first time and with us just after he joined. Commanding the box even better than before and making brilliant saves as well as using his initiative in releasing the ball quickly on occasion for breakaways.

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On 14/02/2021 at 21:38, Lord Duckhunter said:

They can’t have wanted him that much, otherwise they’d have him. If you think their poor season is down to not having him in nets , you really have lost the plot. I suggest you look in the dug out. speaking of which, there’s a bloke in our dugout who sees him day  in day out. Why do you think you see something he doesn’t, you can only have seen him in 4 games. 
 

LOL, look who is playing now and keeping clean sheets. 

 

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