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Saints 1-2 Wolves - Match Thread


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17 minutes ago, trousers said:

Later. Your interrogation is making me feel a tad moist so I'm going to have to go and finish myself off in the gents. Back shortly.

Have a nice wank.

 

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10 minutes ago, captainchris said:

You presume a lot .... 

There's already a significant chance of finishing 17th. Id bet the vast majority on here would rather finish 17th and win a trophy than finish 13th.

Edited by Jonnyboy
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A bad finish to my sporting day , starting with pre dawn England v India and finishing with Saints also briefly raising our hopes then the inevitable crashing to earth ... I'll force myself to watch Motd to see if the pundits can lift the gloom with some uplifting comments on Saints !!

If you remember VVD at Saints how he organized the defence etc I wonder if we need a new 'captain' to rally the troops when the game is slipping away ????

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We may have to face up to reality after yet another disappointing display and outcome. Exciting as it is to watch, Ralph's method of playing football just isn't working In the Premier League simply because (in my view) the intensity of play is just far too great for even very fit players to sustain for much longer than 50/60 minutes. Once energy levels dip then understandably concentration falls off a cliff as well;  Ralph's method requires vey high levels of concentration as well as fitness so as tiredness sets in so we see our patterns of play start to breakdown and the cohesion comes unstuck.

This can explain why opponents who play at a steady pace throughout always come back at us in the second halves to the extent that we have this unenviable reputation for dropping points from winning positions.

It's wrong to blame the players for this, they are only mortal after all. More to the point is can Ralph's playbook work at a lower intensity and slower pace? If it can then surely he would have understood by now that he is asking too much of his players and adapted his methods to ensure his team is able to last the full 90 minutes. If not then we may have seen the limitations of what he can do, not just Saints but for any team.

I hope he can adapt his methods and still create exciting dynamic football otherwise calls for a parting of the ways may become irresistible not least from a spooked owner concerned at the diminishing possibility of recouping his investment.

 

 

Edited by Charlie Wayman
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5 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

You could argue that this team is the worst team in our history. Might sound quite a brash statement to make, but this lot have lost 9-0 twice and have just lost 6 games in a row - the most this club has ever lost in a row in any league.

We are mentally weak, fragile and lack any sort of leadership. When the chips are down we wilt, every single time. That won't change without significant changes in the playing squad, which is something we can't do as we have an owner who doesn't support us.

Long and short of it, we are fucked. No idea where we are heading.

Wembley?

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3 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

We may have to face up to reality after yet another disappointing display and outcome. Exciting as it is to watch, Ralph's method of playing football just isn't working In the Premier League simply because (in my view) the intensity of play is just far too great for even very fit players to sustain for much longer than 50/60 minutes. Once energy levels dip then understandably concentration falls off a cliff as well;  Ralph's method requires vey high levels of concentration as well as fitness so as tiredness sets in so we see our patterns of play start to breakdown and the cohesion comes unstuck.

This can explain why opponents who play at a steady pace throughout always come back at us in the second halves to the extent that we have this unenviable reputation for dropping points from winning positions.

It's wrong to blame the players for this, they are only mortal after all. More to the point is can Ralph's playbook work at a lower intensity and slower pace? If it can then surely he would have understood by now that he is asking too much of his players and adapted his methods to ensure his team is able to last the full 90 minutes. If not then we may have seen the limitations of what he can do, not just Saints but for any team.

I hope he can adapt his methods and still create exciting dynamic football otherwise calls for a parting of the ways may become irresistible not least from a spooked owner concerned at the diminishing possibility of recouping his investment.

 

 

Good post. If we could let our opponents use up their energy in the first half, then save the intensity and pressing for second halves....

But we'd still need more fair refereeing decisions than we've had.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

There’s no chance we’ll finish lower than 17th. 

We won't this year, not so sure about next season though. We have been incredibly lucky that the current bottom 3 are so shit. If we hadn't had had such a good run earlier in the season we might well have been looking over our shoulders. I think we will finish 16th/17th and that in itself is a huge disappointment.

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11 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

We won't this year, not so sure about next season though. We have been incredibly lucky that the current bottom 3 are so shit. If we hadn't had had such a good run earlier in the season we might well have been looking over our shoulders. I think we will finish 16th/17th and that in itself is a huge disappointment.

What's stopping us having a similar first half of next season to the first half of this season...?

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2 minutes ago, trousers said:

What's stopping us having a similar first half of next season to the first half of this season...?

I don't think we have the mental toughness. Things go against us in games we just shrug our shoulders and accept it. Yes, the penalty to them this afternoon was another shit decision, but rather than use that as a motivation to spur you on, Bertie just kept muttering to himself. We need to get nasty, the least these players should be doing is using the bollocks calls to motivate them to attempt to turn things around. I'm not saying I agree with surrounding the ref and being in his ear all game, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to get like that

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19 minutes ago, fanimal said:

The list of all the points we have lost from a winning position makes grim reading and does point to the first half intensity not the best for the Premier league 

Totally agree, we dont seem to learn either, I'm a big fan of Ralph's but we don't seem to know how to close games out or have a plan B ?

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There's a lot of chat about 'Plan B', but what is it?

'Just hit it long and get it in the box!'.

It strikes me that when any team has a bad patch the supporters of said club refer to the lack of 'plan b'. I don't think there are ever plans set like that, it evolves during games.

The lack of urgency in the closing stages of games is a concern though. It doesn't even seem as if we have a 'Plan A' when the chips are down.

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1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

There's a lot of chat about 'Plan B', but what is it?

'Just hit it long and get it in the box!'.

It strikes me that when any team has a bad patch the supporters of said club refer to the lack of 'plan b'. I don't think there are ever plans set like that, it evolves during games.

The lack of urgency in the closing stages of games is a concern though. It doesn't even seem as if we have a 'Plan A' when the chips are down.

What annoys also is how thick footballers are, we are in the last minute of injury time and we spent 20seconds dallying to take a throw

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7 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:
15 minutes ago, trousers said:

What's stopping us having a similar first half of next season to the first half of this season...?

I don't think we have the mental toughness. Things go against us in games we just shrug our shoulders and accept it.

So, where did we get our 'mental toughness' from last year...? And what's stopping us from rediscovering it...?

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45 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

There's already a significant chance of finishing 17th. Id bet the vast majority on here would rather finish 17th and win a trophy than finish 13th.

Playing with fire and particularly considering the teams left in the FA Cup....

A lack of ambition in the league is totally baffling... 

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4 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

There's a lot of chat about 'Plan B', but what is it?

'Just hit it long and get it in the box!'.

It strikes me that when any team has a bad patch the supporters of said club refer to the lack of 'plan b'. I don't think there are ever plans set like that, it evolves during games.

The lack of urgency in the closing stages of games is a concern though. It doesn't even seem as if we have a 'Plan A' when the chips are down.

I raised a similar point to this in another thread earlier in the week (possibly the Ralph thread).

There’s are great deal of talk about ‘plan B’ but very few managers we’ve had have been able to implement one.

As in the previous thread, I think Hoddle was the last manager who we had that was considered able to change a game tactically with a sub or a switch. But he failed spectacularly to do this at Tranmere.

The plan B we’d like is to defend a lead. I’ve lost count of how many times this has been our undoing, yet other teams seem to defend a lead against us for half a game or more, or when down to 9 men. 

 

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7 minutes ago, captainchris said:

Playing with fire and particularly considering the teams left in the FA Cup....

A lack of ambition in the league is totally baffling... 

Define "playing with fire".

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4 hours ago, JRM said:

Definitely has similarities,  I've mentioned this elsewhere , weird how last time we topped the league in 88 the shock was enough to send us spiralling down the table, history repeating itself. 

Difference this time we get a cup run. 

Our squad just can't hack this intensity of fixtures (physical) combined with such fragile mentalities. 

Where's the next league point coming from? 

Beginning to feel more like 1973 to me. 

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24 minutes ago, Badger said:

I raised a similar point to this in another thread earlier in the week (possibly the Ralph thread).

There’s are great deal of talk about ‘plan B’ but very few managers we’ve had have been able to implement one.

As in the previous thread, I think Hoddle was the last manager who we had that was considered able to change a game tactically with a sub or a switch. But he failed spectacularly to do this at Tranmere.

The plan B we’d like is to defend a lead. I’ve lost count of how many times this has been our undoing, yet other teams seem to defend a lead against us for half a game or more, or when down to 9 men. 

 

This just defending a lead and we'd have like 15-20 points more 

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21 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Beginning to feel more like 1973 to me. 

I did point this out to my sons when we went top in October. I didn’t expect it to come back as a prophesy to bite me on the arse. It shouldn’t and I hope it doesn’t but every season someone seems to drop like a stone. 

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7 minutes ago, captainchris said:

Christ - work it out ! 

Sorry, I can't work it out.

To be clear we are not going to be relegated this season. So what "fire" are we playing with?

 

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1 hour ago, Badger said:

I raised a similar point to this in another thread earlier in the week (possibly the Ralph thread).

There’s are great deal of talk about ‘plan B’ but very few managers we’ve had have been able to implement one.

As in the previous thread, I think Hoddle was the last manager who we had that was considered able to change a game tactically with a sub or a switch. But he failed spectacularly to do this at Tranmere.

The plan B we’d like is to defend a lead. I’ve lost count of how many times this has been our undoing, yet other teams seem to defend a lead against us for half a game or more, or when down to 9 men. 

 

But we did it against Liverpool and against City last year?

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3 hours ago, Saint WGC said:

To be slightly different from most other opinions on here who blame the usual suspects (in some cases correctly), it does amaze me how our captain seems to escape any criticism. Whilst not disagreeing that the defending all round has been shambolic, the crucial goal in the last two games have been scored from unnecessary passes backwards by JWP. He tends to go backwards and sideways far more than he goes forwards.

As captain, he should be setting the tone for his team mates by driving us forward, instead an unnecessary back pass last week and another pass backwards today which led to the build up of Neto's goal. While he takes a great set piece, he does not take enough responsibility as captain. Last week, he should have been telling Bertrand to go away and whipping in that free kick right on half time, especially in those conditions.

He is a solid midfield player but lacks the real quality on the ball to create in open play like for example James Maddison. For me, he is the quality midfielder who got away when it comes to Saints. I just wish our players would learn from previous games and stop becoming negative when we're a goal up. 

Ralph is a quality manager and if he went somewhere else to a bigger club, he would do well as he would be backed by the board. We are lucky to have him and unfortunately, he is being let down by his players and lack of quality in the squad.

I have been reluctant to criticise JWP this season, even though there have been many games including today where he has been distinctly average and hardly leadership material.     His dead ball delivery is so good that many seem to be blinded by the limitations of his outfield game.  Yes, his work rate and energy are also first class, but the percentage of static,  safe, unadventurous passes often means it is left to Romeo to initiate quick movement and attacking passes from midfield.    JWP has improved immensely over the past 18 months or so but he should also be put under the microscope for the downturn in our style of play and form, just as the regular scapegoats are.   Having said all that, I don't doubt that JWP must be feeling the effects of the workload he has had to carry.  He could certainly do with a freshen up and a seat in the stands for a game or two.

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Surely Alex McCarthy's confidence must have taken a beating v. Man U (even if he wasn't to blame for everything), but last week's

3rd goal v. Newcastle showed he has a real problem, and now he's picked the ball out of the net  20 times in the last 6  Prem. games.

 

So WHY ...do we have a  £70K /week keeper with 4 successive clean sheets to his credit sitting on the bench?   Sort this out first Ralph .

Our injury list still dictates just who will be available for the next game, but we must show some security between the posts. 

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2 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

If we hadn't had had such a good run earlier in the season we might well have been looking over our shoulders. 

What a ridiculous thing to say. 
 

If we hadn’t won so many games under Koeman, we’d have been looking over our shoulders both seasons. 

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1 minute ago, david in sweden said:

So WHY ...do we have a  £70K /week keeper with 4 successive clean sheets to his credit sitting on the bench? 

So that when he eventually gets the nod ahead of McCarthy, and then has a succession of bad games, the Saintsweb intelligentsia can revert to slagging him off again...?

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3 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Are you saying not one member of this forum expressed a view that our form was not going to be maintained?

I would say every member of this forum knew the inevitable would happen at some point, seeing as it's happened every top flight season apart from 83/84. 

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6 hours ago, Badger said:

I did point this out to my sons when we went top in October. I didn’t expect it to come back as a prophesy to bite me on the arse. It shouldn’t and I hope it doesn’t but every season someone seems to drop like a stone. 

I remember last season Sheffield Utd briefly topping the table and dropping like a stone thereafter, see where they are now and where Saints could be next season!

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7 hours ago, trousers said:

So that when he eventually gets the nod ahead of McCarthy, and then has a succession of bad games, the Saintsweb intelligentsia can revert to slagging him off again...?

This forum is incredible. When a player plays badly (now it's the turn of McCarthy and Redmond) people point it out and suggest a change. Then someone like trousers will come on and say something like "yeh but what if they go on and play badly then you geniuses will all slag them off?". So we're never allowed to talk about players being off form? We're never allowed to suggest changes in the team?

If somebody plays badly people will talk about it. If someone plays well they'll talk about it. 

McCarthy has been playing dreadfully recently and Fraser has been playing well. It's not rocket science to think that Fraser should start.

Redmond has been playing dreadfully recently. It's not rocket science to think that he shouldn't be playing.

Keep your trousers on. Just because someone says McCarthy is playing sh*t it doesn't mean he's being bullied. It doesn't mean he needs a safe space. Doesn't mean the intelligentsia are trolling. People are allowed to criticise our players when they're not doing very well. 

I think our players have thicker skin that you do trousers. They can take the criticism, they're grown men. Try acting like one yourself. 👍

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Make your point with out exaggerating, no one has said McCarthy is being bullied. 

The point remains, the law of football forums is that a players perceived skill level increases the longer they don't play, this gets amplified if this period includes the odd decent turnout.

Forster has been ripped into for years, is he really any better.

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Forster Could well come in and be just as poor, I think the point people are making is as he's been given a chance in other games and not let us down (4 clean sheets in 4) that he has earned the chance to have a run in the side. If it doesn't work out then so be it. 

Vestergaard was very good at times yesterday , especially his distribution but he was also at fault for Wolves 2nd not just McCarthy. 

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I've read a few reports this morning and everyone seems to be talking about the Neto goal being world class. Barely a mention of the Ings goal. Am I alone in thinking that Vesty shouldn't be turned so easily and that McCarthy should've saved it?

On the GK debate, I'm a fan of McCarthy and was very critical of Fraser when it seemed the opponent just needed to get a shot on target to score a goal (my memory is good and it was that bad) but there's no way conceding 14 goals in 3 games, regardless of fault, puts you in a good mindset. Fraser should definitely play against Chelsea.

 

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13 hours ago, East Kent Saint said:

A bad finish to my sporting day , starting with pre dawn England v India and finishing with Saints also briefly raising our hopes then the inevitable crashing to earth ... I'll force myself to watch Motd to see if the pundits can lift the gloom with some uplifting comments on Saints !!

If you remember VVD at Saints how he organized the defence etc I wonder if we need a new 'captain' to rally the troops when the game is slipping away ????

VVD had a good teacher, Jose Fonte.  Without Fonte VVD would be nada.

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2 minutes ago, Portugalsaint said:

VVD had a good teacher, Jose Fonte.  Without Fonte VVD would be nada.

That's funny because VVD was a highly regarded player when he arrived at SFC from Celtic. He was class from day one for us.

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33 minutes ago, jabei said:

I've read a few reports this morning and everyone seems to be talking about the Neto goal being world class. Barely a mention of the Ings goal. Am I alone in thinking that Vesty shouldn't be turned so easily and that McCarthy should've saved it?

On the GK debate, I'm a fan of McCarthy and was very critical of Fraser when it seemed the opponent just needed to get a shot on target to score a goal (my memory is good and it was that bad) but there's no way conceding 14 goals in 3 games, regardless of fault, puts you in a good mindset. Fraser should definitely play against Chelsea.

 

But we also let Traore run full width across pitch, a flimsy effort from Romeu although I know he was on a booking for earlier silly challenge, but that shouldn't happen 

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2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

That's funny because VVD was a highly regarded player when he arrived at SFC from Celtic. He was class from day one for us.

Only thing VVD does well is point at the earth below his feet when things go wrong.  Mentally, he is a sulker look at the photos he posted of himself on the private jet?  Never been a leader for me.  Mind you, having said that, Liverpool are just fcuked without him in defence.  Still think Fonte was one our underrated.

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12 hours ago, trousers said:

So that when he eventually gets the nod ahead of McCarthy, and then has a succession of bad games, the Saintsweb intelligentsia can revert to slagging him off again...?

What a weird point, if players are out of form you say it like it is.

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