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Che Adams - could Saints do better?


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32 minutes ago, DT said:

He'll suddenly be world-beating with an excellent manager and top-notch fitness regime if he went there. Two things we appear to lack (IMO)

Fair enough its your opinion but you do have history of hysterical opinions of late😉

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2 hours ago, Chapel End said:

Great in principle but where is the money coming from

And therein lies our constraint, which is why we're playing Adam's as a first choice striker. That's the balance we as fans need to remember; we can't afford to buy EPL-proven quality unless it comes with risks, e.g. Ings and his injury record when we signed him, or Adams and the risk that he won't carry his goal scoring levels up from the Championship.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Chapel End said:

Great in principle but where is the money coming from

duplicate

Edited by RobM
No idea
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18 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I don't really like goalkeepers as outfield coaches either but if Davis is acting as the keeper and setting up situations where Adams can practice his finishing then it's not totally bonkers. There's a limit to how much you can explain to someone how to shoot, and if he's getting that from elsewhere then all that's left is for Adams to practice and ultimately work it out for himself

Would it be an advantage to us maybe if someone-anyone at the club could coach him to errr kick with his left foot???? Asking too much ? Yeah thought so .... 

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41 minutes ago, RobM said:

And therein lies our constraint, which is why we're playing Adam's as a first choice striker. That's the balance we as fans need to remember; we can't afford to buy EPL-proven quality unless it comes with risks, e.g. Ings and his injury record when we signed him, or Adams and the risk that he won't carry his goal scoring levels up from the Championship.

Fully agree, let's hope Ings stays and stays fit.

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2 hours ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

Think we need better.. Adams is from the Shane long school of finishing. Majority of chances he gets he finds some way to mess it up just like long 

If we have a fully functioning striker we usually do well

 

Lambert was probably the last decent one we had and Beattie before him

 

Pelle was OK so is Ings but he is an injury waiting to happen Mane was excellent but not an out and out striker

 

As we have little cash I doubt we will get in a really decent one this summer especially as most clubs will be looking for strikers

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3 minutes ago, John B said:

If we have a fully functioning striker we usually do well

 

Lambert was probably the last decent one we had and Beattie before him

 

Pelle was OK so is Ings but he is an injury waiting to happen Mane was excellent but not an out and out striker

 

As we have little cash I doubt we will get in a really decent one this summer especially as most clubs will be looking for strikers

Andy Carroll is out of contract. Just sayin, like ;)

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5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Andy Carroll is out of contract. Just sayin, like ;)

In 200 games since 2011 in the PL he has scored 40 goals according to Wiki

 

Whilst Adams has scored 11 in 61 games

 

Neither that very good do you not agree

 

Beattie Scored 68 goals in 204 games for us Pelle 23 in 68

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9 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Thought Adams was quality tonight. Looks a lot better when Ings is playing.

As does everyone. The trouble is we won’t have ings next season and without him, Adams cannot be relied upon to score goals. 
 

Adams played very well tonight though, took his chance well. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, SKD said:

As does everyone. The trouble is we won’t have ings next season and without him, Adams cannot be relied upon to score goals. 
 

Adams played very well tonight though, took his chance well. 

I agree. Obviously we would have to do our best to replace Ings with someone else who is a better finisher than Adams.

Edited by Harry_SFC
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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Thought Adams was quality tonight. Looks a lot better when Ings is playing.

I think Ings looks better when he plays with Adams too.

Why Redmond played up front with Ings for a period this season instead of Adams is still bizarre - they link up well

Edited by ErwinK1961
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Adams is such a good second striker, excellent hold up, work rate and passing. He needs a quality finisher next to him though to make the most of it. Gunna be a big question for the summer.

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6 minutes ago, TWar said:

Adams is such a good second striker, excellent hold up, work rate and passing. He needs a quality finisher next to him though to make the most of it. Gunna be a big question for the summer.

I get the point around his hold up play etc. But he does actually get in some very good positions (credit to him for that) and has a lot of opportunities to score for a ‘second striker’. 
 

He really needs to start taking those opportunities, regardless of how good his hold up play is. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, SKD said:

As does everyone. The trouble is we won’t have ings next season and without him, Adams cannot be relied upon to score goals. 
 

Adams played very well tonight though, took his chance well. 

Christ that must hurt you typing that 🙂

Edited by Give it to Ron
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5 minutes ago, SKD said:

I get the point around his hold up play etc. But he does actually get in some very good positions (credit to him for that) and has a lot of opportunities to score for a ‘second striker’. 
 

He really needs to start taking those opportunities, regardless of how good his hold up play is. 

Obviously his finishing could do with work. He could easily be on 12-13 goals right now if he had his eye in, but for me he makes Ings better, he finds the runs Ings makes so so well and his strength and hold up play open up so much for Ings in the box. If he was a good finisher too he'd be a top top star, at the moment he is a rough diamond and exactly the sort of player a club of our size should be working to develop and enable.

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32 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

I think Ings looks better when he plays with Adams too.

Why Redmond played up front with Ings for a period this season instead of Adams is still bizarre - they link up well

Yes the two of them are a good pair, they’ve got a good understanding and Adams links up play well with him. A goal and assist tonight, can’t argue with that. If he could just be a bit more composed in front of goal he’d be quite a player 

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Good pair those two. They assist each other too, it's not just a one way relationship. It's something that's evolved massively over the last 18 months.

A fit and on-form Adams and Ings partnership gets us top half imo.

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I really like Adams, always have. I obviously agree that he should be more efficient in front of goal with his chances. I do think he has very good vision, you can tell he played in midfield earlier in his life, he has spotted a number of great passes in his time here and got some really lovely assists. He’s improved a lot since he arrived, hopefully that continues, would love to have another Adams/Ings season, however unlikely that may be!

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Posted (edited)

I am sure some old farts will moan because I am using XG but his expected goals for the season is 10.77 and he's scored 8 goals.  

Ings as a contrast has an XG of 7.95 this season but has scored 12.

So you can see the clear difference. 

But interestingly if you look at Bamford, Calvert-Lewin and Watkins, all other non 'big 6' strikers who have done well this season (15, 16 and 13 goals respectively) all of them are below their XG as well. 

Which just shows how good Ings is, he's a world class finisher and we are going to find it hard to replace him. 

I also think it shows clearly we don't create that many chances if the likes of Watkins and Bamford can be at a similar level of finishing to Adams but have more than 50% more goals so clearly we need another creative force.  Those teams have the likes of Grealish or James Rodriguez or Raphinha creating chances and we really lack a creative force like that. 

Edited by tajjuk
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1 hour ago, tajjuk said:

I am sure some old farts will moan because I am using XG but his expected goals for the season is 10.77 and he's scored 8 goals.  

Ings as a contrast has an XG of 7.95 this season but has scored 12.

So you can see the clear difference. 

But interestingly if you look at Bamford, Calvert-Lewin and Watkins, all other non 'big 6' strikers who have done well this season (15, 16 and 13 goals respectively) all of them are below their XG as well. 

Which just shows how good Ings is, he's a world class finisher and we are going to find it hard to replace him. 

I also think it shows clearly we don't create that many chances if the likes of Watkins and Bamford can be at a similar level of finishing to Adams but have more than 50% more goals so clearly we need another creative force.  Those teams have the likes of Grealish or James Rodriguez or Raphinha creating chances and we really lack a creative force like that. 

Bang on, we are spoiled by Ings who is statistically over the last two seasons the best finisher in the league after Son. Adams is a slightly below average finisher but as I said in the other thread, our chance creation is very poor and we desperately need Armstrong back as a 10 and a new attacking mid next to him who can create.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TWar said:

Bang on, we are spoiled by Ings who is statistically over the last two seasons the best finisher in the league after Son. Adams is a slightly below average finisher but as I said in the other thread, our chance creation is very poor and we desperately need Armstrong back as a 10 and a new attacking mid next to him who can create.

Whatever XG says, he’s not a below average finisher, he’s a very poor finisher. Lacks composure (this is something that comes naturally and you can’t coach) and his goals are boosted by his strange ability to only seem to stick the hard ones away. Stats don’t paint the full picture, actually watching week in week out will tell you that. 

We can get a creative midfielder to stick them on a plate for him, but history would suggest that he’ll miss. 
 

As I’ve said, his play and work rate up until the 18 yard box is very good, but we’re not good enough as a team to have a striker who just isn’t very good at scoring goals. 

Edited by SKD
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7 minutes ago, SKD said:

Whatever XG says, he’s not a below average finisher, he’s a very poor finisher. Lacks composure (this is something that comes naturally and you can’t coach) and his goals are boosted by his strange ability to only seem to stick the hard ones away. Stats don’t paint the full picture, actually watching week in week out will tell you that. 

We can get a creative midfielder to stick them on a plate for him, but history would suggest that he’ll miss. 
 

As I’ve said, his play and work rate up until the 18 yard box is very good, but we’re not good enough as a team to have a striker who just isn’t very good at scoring goals. 

This. Unfortunately a lot of geeks and weirdos on here have probably never played the game or actually understand what's going on on the pitch, they'd rather point to a few stats some geek said Adams running gait is the optimum profile to achieve an XG of 11.23 or some other nonsense. I hope you enjoyed the new pressing stat that was pulled out a couple of times last night, this lot will be all over that moving forward. 

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Seems to play better during a run in the side, which makes Ralph’s treatment of him a bit bizarre. He was doing well and then got binned. Probably due to his DQ stats dropping , or his Sweat rate dropping below 0.76 mil grams per second, or other such pony. 

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As predicted the old farts who are scared of stats are out in force.....

A load of Harry Rednkapps, think you can win football games with a can do attitude and the odd bollocking, it's not the 80s and 90s anymore. Reminds me of all the fat old scouts round the table in the Moneyball film. 

 

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30 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

As predicted the old farts who are scared of stats are out in force.....

A load of Harry Rednkapps, think you can win football games with a can do attitude and the odd bollocking, it's not the 80s and 90s anymore. Reminds me of all the fat old scouts round the table in the Moneyball film. 

 

It’s not being scared of stats. It’s just that they don’t paint a full picture. He’s absolutely dreadful in front of goal when he has time to think about it. Stats won’t tell you that but watching the game will. 

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I don’t think that xG stat was used to suggest that Adams is a world class finisher, more to show that other players aren’t doing as well as they may seem. If you’d watched Bamford or Watkins, you’d know that they miss hatfuls of chances, and if Ings was playing in either side he’d probably be on 30 goals this season! We miss a Tadic/Lallana-esque creator, we have done for years - it wouldn’t make Adams a deadly finisher over night, but he’d probably have bagged a fair few more than he has.

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Predictably lazy assumptions from the play station generation. Peter Taylor was one of the greatest judges of a player the games ever seen, I doubt he dished out one bollocking in his time. If you think the greats like Cloughie, Shanks, Bob Paisley or even SAF got by without being as tactically masterful as the modern managers, you’re deluded. All done with their own eyes, not an XG, VR or WQ in sight.  

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7 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Predictably lazy assumptions from the play station generation. Peter Taylor was one of the greatest judges of a player the games ever seen, I doubt he dished out one bollocking in his time. If you think the greats like Cloughie, Shanks, Bob Paisley or even SAF got by without being as tactically masterful as the modern managers, you’re deluded. All done with their own eyes, not an XG, VR or WQ in sight.  

Hasn’t served Brentford too badly, given those are the sort of stats they operate off when they buy players. They’ve signed Maupay, Watkins and Benrahma cheap and turned them into £75million, and replaced them with Ivan Toney for £12mil who’s just broken the Championship goal record. 

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Just now, saintwbu said:

Hasn’t served Brentford too badly, given those are the sort of stats they operate off when they buy players. They’ve signed Maupay, Watkins and Benrahma cheap and turned them into £75million, and replaced them with Ivan Toney for £12mil who’s just broken the Championship goal record. 

And they lost their bottle last season. Is there a stat for that? 

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4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

And they lost their bottle last season. Is there a stat for that? 

Unfortunately xG didn’t come in handy for signing their goalkeeper, who cost them the final. 

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7 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

Unfortunately xG didn’t come in handy for signing their goalkeeper, who cost them the final. 

I was talking about their run in, when they lost the last 2 games to hand WBA promotion. 
 

When it mattered they lost 4 out of their last 5 games. 

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47 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

Hasn’t served Brentford too badly, given those are the sort of stats they operate off when they buy players. They’ve signed Maupay, Watkins and Benrahma cheap and turned them into £75million, and replaced them with Ivan Toney for £12mil who’s just broken the Championship goal record. 

Are you suggesting that they didn’t watch the player as well? 

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5 minutes ago, SKD said:

Are you suggesting that they didn’t watch the player as well? 

I’ve fairly confident they would have watched the player too, yes. But to say stats are not a factor is obviously just silly - a look at stats would tell you that Watkins and Bamford have outscored Ings this season. They must be better, get them on the plane to the Euro’s! But they’ve played a third more games, so stats do matter, whether you like them or not. 

 

FWIW I don’t really care much for the xG stat, but it clearly has some relevance as a lot of people (in the game) place a lot of importance on it nowadays.

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I think people on here need a bit of a reality check here...  Che has 8 goals this season and only 28 other players in the premier league have more to date.  In previous years in the top flight we would have loved a second striker who scored as many as that.  His link up play is often superb as well.  If he was our main goal scorer yes it’d be a problem but as second to ings he’s more than good enough for us.

Our main issue for me is lack of goals from midfield, where you would only back jwp and Armstrong to score 5+ a season, and jwp only does that because of his free kick ability

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2 hours ago, tajjuk said:

As predicted the old farts who are scared of stats are out in force.....

A load of Harry Rednkapps, think you can win football games with a can do attitude and the odd bollocking, it's not the 80s and 90s anymore. Reminds me of all the fat old scouts round the table in the Moneyball film. 

 

Well you dont win games by looking at spreadsheets.

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6 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

I think people on here need a bit of a reality check here...  Che has 8 goals this season and only 28 other players in the premier league have more to date.  In previous years in the top flight we would have loved a second striker who scored as many as that.  His link up play is often superb as well.  If he was our main goal scorer yes it’d be a problem but as second to ings he’s more than good enough for us.

Our main issue for me is lack of goals from midfield, where you would only back jwp and Armstrong to score 5+ a season, and jwp only does that because of his free kick ability

Yeah but, I know but, his xyz/1g5 says he aint no good. i'd love to agree with you but the hieroglyphics  say I can't, sorry.

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1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I was talking about their run in, when they lost the last 2 games to hand WBA promotion. 
 

When it mattered they lost 4 out of their last 5 games. 

But some on here want Thomas Frank to replace Ralph. Often qualified "if Brentford don't get promoted..".

So, a manager whose team 'bottle' promotion at the crucial end of the season. Not sure the appeal stacks up for me. Perhaps he's the new Bruno Metsu to some.

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1 minute ago, Badger said:

But some on here want Thomas Frank to replace Ralph. Often qualified "if Brentford don't get promoted..".

So, a manager whose team 'bottle' promotion at the crucial end of the season. Not sure the appeal stacks up for me. Perhaps he's the new Bruno Metsu to some.

Didn't they bottle it last year too?

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5 hours ago, tajjuk said:

I am sure some old farts will moan because I am using XG but his expected goals for the season is 10.77 and he's scored 8 goals.  

Ings as a contrast has an XG of 7.95 this season but has scored 12.

So you can see the clear difference. 

 

Please explain this to a self confessed old fart.

XG as I understood was 'expected goals'. If so, why is Ings "XG" less than Adams ?

Not looking to take the piss, genuinely interested.

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7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Well you dont win games by looking at spreadsheets.

As Lawrie commented to Jimmy Hill once "... but we don't play on paper.."

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2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Predictably lazy assumptions from the play station generation. Peter Taylor was one of the greatest judges of a player the games ever seen, I doubt he dished out one bollocking in his time. If you think the greats like Cloughie, Shanks, Bob Paisley or even SAF got by without being as tactically masterful as the modern managers, you’re deluded. All done with their own eyes, not an XG, VR or WQ in sight.  

And everyone of them would use these stats if they were managing today. They are just tools to use as part of an all round approach.

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47 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

I think people on here need a bit of a reality check here...  Che has 8 goals this season and only 28 other players in the premier league have more to date.  In previous years in the top flight we would have loved a second striker who scored as many as that.  His link up play is often superb as well.  If he was our main goal scorer yes it’d be a problem but as second to ings he’s more than good enough for us.

Our main issue for me is lack of goals from midfield, where you would only back jwp and Armstrong to score 5+ a season, and jwp only does that because of his free kick ability

Totally this. His composure can be poor and he wants to always use his right foot. But his numbers aren't bad and he offers other strengths that warrants his place in a middle level prem team.

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2 hours ago, SKD said:

It’s not being scared of stats. It’s just that they don’t paint a full picture. He’s absolutely dreadful in front of goal when he has time to think about it. Stats won’t tell you that but watching the game will. 

He is by no means 'dreadful' and certainly not 'absolutely dreadful'. If you seriously think he is then all those I am about to mention must be dreadful too. With 3 matches of the season to go: Che has only scored 1 goal less than Mane, Mahrez and Cavani (who obviously play alongside much better players); has scored the same number of goals as Jota, Jesus, Benteke and Maupay; more goals than the likes of Greenwood, Firmino, Richarlison, Abraham, Raphinha, Pepe, Werner, Martial, Welbeck, and so may others.

Similarly, Che has only: 1 less assist than Sterling, Firmino and Neto; the same number of assists as the likes of Mane, Willian, Pereira and Wilson; more assists than (to name but a few) Ings, Mahrez, Moura, Saint-Maximin, Salah, Watkins, Richarlison, Jesus, Martial, Saka, Aubemayang and Wood.

Could Che do better yes. Could we do better than Che? Only if we pay a shitload of money for a top, top, player and even then, looking at the fees paid for players he has outscored and assisted more goals than, there is no guarantee.

Che is good TEAM player. We play better when he is the team. He has a great partnership with Ings, which will hopefully still be the case next season and for for a few more seasons to come. If not, I fully expect Che to be part of a successful partnership with who ever we bring in to replace Danny.

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5 minutes ago, Minsk said:

He is by no means 'dreadful' and certainly not 'absolutely dreadful'. If you seriously think he is then all those I am about to mention must be dreadful too. With 3 matches of the season to go: Che has only scored 1 goal less than Mane, Mahrez and Cavani (who obviously play alongside much better players); has scored the same number of goals as Jota, Jesus, Benteke and Maupay; more goals than the likes of Greenwood, Firmino, Richarlison, Abraham, Raphinha, Pepe, Werner, Martial, Welbeck, and so may others.

Similarly, Che has only: 1 less assist than Sterling, Firmino and Neto; the same number of assists as the likes of Mane, Willian, Pereira and Wilson; more assists than (to name but a few) Ings, Mahrez, Moura, Saint-Maximin, Salah, Watkins, Richarlison, Jesus, Martial, Saka, Aubemayang and Wood.

Could Che do better yes. Could we do better than Che? Only if we pay a shitload of money for a top, top, player and even then, looking at the fees paid for players he has outscored and assisted more goals than, there is no guarantee.

Che is good TEAM player. We play better when he is the team. He has a great partnership with Ings, which will hopefully still be the case next season and for for a few more seasons to come. If not, I fully expect Che to be part of a successful partnership with who ever we bring in to replace Danny.

I can’t be bothered to read the whole post, but in terms of composure in front of goal, he very much is. I can’t remember the last time we went 1-1 with the keeper and stuck it away? Genuine question, when was the last time? 

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