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JWP & Diallo Partnership


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They were awful first 25mins vs Burnley and both poor for the whole game today.

Obviously both good players but not a good partnership at the moment. A bit lightweight as a pairing (WBA noticeably outmuscled us multiple times) and whilst Diallo is mobile he ends up leaving big holes in front of the CBs, where Romeu tends to stay in position more.

JWP just looks knackered which is not suprising.

I'm sure they will work it out but beyond the expected hysterics from a poor performance I think this area is a tangible reason. Its seems very easy to get at our back four.

Obviously Jankowitz must be off in the summer otherwise he would surely have been used from the bench recently.

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32 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Obviously Jankowitz must be off in the summer otherwise he would surely have been used from the bench recently.

Why's he even on the bench. If he's not going to play when Diallo plays utter gash, or even when we only have 1 cm(stephens, armstrong playing there)

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Ward-Prowse was totally anonymous, and Diallo was all over the place trying to cover for him (and failing miserably). Then Bednarek rushes out into midfield and leaves the defence totally exposed. I like Diallo but our CBs and CDMs just aren’t good enough for this level.

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Prowse sums up everything that’s wrong with the club. Too polite, too nice, son in law material. May get away with it playing alongside some real men, but not with this lot. Bottle job that should of been stripped of the captaincy when he ducked out of the way and cost us a goal. If he’s a leader, my cocks a carrot. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Prowse sums up everything that’s wrong with the club. Too polite, too nice, son in law material. May get away with it playing alongside some real men, but not with this lot. Bottle job that should of been stripped of the captaincy when he ducked out of the way and cost us a goal. If he’s a leader, my cocks a carrot. 

The player who plays every minute, never throws the toys out, who works harder at his game than anyone else at the club is what is wrong? Mate, you have your priorities all over the place. 

Edited by sydney_saint
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54 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Too polite, too nice

I've been saying this for a while now to my son. We had a bit of meanness about us after first lockdown last season and the start of this season. I recall the 2-2 United game in particular getting right into them. Romeu possibly lucky to stay on the pitch for that one. 

We have been soft as shite in recent months. We barely get in the refs face, hardly argue for anything and are generally too bloody easy to play against. Worst thing is, everyone else knows it too. 

Get that guile and nastiness back and we might actually start getting at teams a bit more. JWP sets the tone as the leader and agree he's gone missing a bit in that department. Fatigue and out of form possibly but bloody bollock some players now and again. 

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I remember commenting on JWP adding a nastiness to his game, or smartly using the "dark arts", as now known which had never been seen before in the past year, which was adding to his overall contribution to the team. Most noticeably against Zaha to get under his skin and scuffing the penalty spot for England. But, this has been missing in recent months, for whatever reason. 

Diallo looked good in his introductory outings, but it's clear that he needs to be drip fed into the team like Salisu, rather than getting pushed straight into the deep end due to injuries. Been quite poor, anonymous and getting the basics wrong in recent matches, which you do not want in the centre.

Unfortunately, there isn't an alternative for now. Jankewitz isn't going to be put back in.

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7 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

The player who plays every minute, never throws the toys out, who works harder at his game than anyone else at the club is what is wrong? Mate, you have your priorities all over the place. 

The results speak for themselves. The fact he plays every game shows how fucking poor we are. The fact he doesn’t get upset backs up my point exactly. Where’s the passion, where’s the digging of others out, where’s the leadership on the pitch. A nice boy running around towing the line....

 

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8 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

The player who plays every minute, never throws the toys out, who works harder at his game than anyone else at the club is what is wrong? Mate, you have your priorities all over the place. 

He is a hard-worker but he just isn’t good enough. When Saints were a top-half team he was a squad player, as soon as he became a regular starter we’ve been fighting against relegation. We could have signed Maitland-Niles to challenge for his position, but refused to play him there; the difference between him and JWP yesterday was night and day.

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I know we are almost back to full strength but we are really missing Oriol right now. Not only did he have an excellent understanding with JWP but HE COULD TACKLE. We really needed him in front of that back four to break up the danger. No excuses but we do miss him.  

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Physically we are far too weak in midfield, teams have realised that and we are struggling with it, also exposes our back 4 as often the midfield rarely get a challenge in or track runners. 

West Brom won every 50/50 last night. 

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JWP is clearly knackered, has played too much this season and cannot muster up the same stamina he had at the beginning. This "good boy" nonsense is complete bullshit, captains don't scream at their team mates on the pitch, it isn't 2002 anymore, can anyone think of a single captain in the league who has "digged out" his team this season on the pitch in front of all the fans? Captains lead with their actions and JWP did that by being the hardest working player in the europe last season (top 5 leagues). He is now completely run down, you can see it in the way he runs around now, lad is fatigued, it showed in the lacklustre pen too.

The massive concern is, as others have rightly pointed out, why isn't he getting a rest? We have Jankewitz waiting in the wings and Stephens and Armstrong can both do an average job there, he needs to have a game or two off for his own sake and it shouldn't be the FA cup semis.

Regarding Diallo, I thought he was fine. Not the ball winner that Romeu is but he turns well in midfield and is quite press resistance. Walcott, Armstrong, and Ings were out main culprits for giving the ball away, him and KWP were the only players who seemed reasonably consistent with their passing. Infact in the game Diallo had an 87% pass success rate, highest in the whole team (except Adams who completed 2 of 2 for 100%). JWP was second on 85% to be fair. Our massive issues came from players like Armstrong on 75%, Walcott with 71%, and Ings with 53% who continuously gave it away. Diallo also had the most recoveries in the game, but mainly because we kept giving the ball away just in front of him.

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This "partnership" is not a good one, for all the reasons others have stated. Last night (and against Burnley) I thought Diallo was hesitant, negative and almost nervous. When he first played, I thought he was lively and skilful, but he seems to be inhibited now, most likely that he is being asked to do certain things which are slightly alien to him. He is playing consciously, rather than subconsciously (automation). We have missed Romeu a huge amount.

Those who are being critical of JWP are being unfair in my opinion. I will agree that he is not the "hardest" but there are many players in that category who we would welcome with open arms. At the start of the season when we were playing great football I doubt these people even noticed. For me we need another CM in the Romeu mould. I hope AJ is that player but who knows. JWP is very clearly running on empty, physically and mentally. His corners and free kicks the last couple of games have been the worst of the season, particularly the speed. I have never really liked him as the captain, as he does not strike me as a verbal leader, just one who leads by example - which is great - but for me the captain on the field needs to be a motivator and organiser. I wonder if making Vestergaard captain would bring a little bit more from him and I like CBs being captain. On the basis he stays! Otherwise I'd probably make Armstrong Captain, but again, is he verbal enough?

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17 minutes ago, TWar said:

JWP is clearly knackered, has played too much this season and cannot muster up the same stamina he had at the beginning. This "good boy" nonsense is complete bullshit, captains don't scream at their team mates on the pitch, it isn't 2002 anymore, can anyone think of a single captain in the league who has "digged out" his team this season on the pitch in front of all the fans? Captains lead with their actions and JWP did that by being the hardest working player in the europe last season (top 5 leagues). He is now completely run down, you can see it in the way he runs around now, lad is fatigued, it showed in the lacklustre pen too.

The massive concern is, as others have rightly pointed out, why isn't he getting a rest? We have Jankewitz waiting in the wings and Stephens and Armstrong can both do an average job there, he needs to have a game or two off for his own sake and it shouldn't be the FA cup semis.

Regarding Diallo, I thought he was fine. Not the ball winner that Romeu is but he turns well in midfield and is quite press resistance. JWP, Walcott, Bertrand, Armstrong, Ings and Redmond were out main culprits for giving the ball away, him and KWP were the only players who seemed reasonably consistent with their passing.

I'm not convinced it is as simple as tiredness. JWP & Romeu seemed to understand where each other was playing and work together. Diallo and JWP just don't seem to have the same level of partnership.

I also feel that JWP seems to believe that he is the 3rd centre half when KWP goes flying down the right wing, JWP immediately slips back next to Vest & Bed.  I know it makes sense under certain circumstances, but in some matches he seems to be spending all the match just outside our own penalty area. I sympathise with Diallo because it means he is a one man midfield chasing the ball.  I do think that some of it is a loss of confidence in the defence, so we spend too much time trying to help out, rather than playing to our (previous) strengths which was pressing higher up the pitch. 

Confidence can be a very flimsy thing but also difficult to recover. Look at Redmond a month or so ago he couldn't kick a football and for the past 3 games seems to have regained his mojo. But, I think Saints need to be brave and try and regain their confidence and start playing higher up the pitch, so the whole team gets their mojo back, rather than just individuals.  

Last night and Newcastle away were very very worrying performances. I am losing my belief that this can be turned around. I hope that I am wrong. 

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4 minutes ago, WALK DMC said:

I'm not convinced it is as simple as tiredness. JWP & Romeu seemed to understand where each other was playing and work together. Diallo and JWP just don't seem to have the same level of partnership.

I also feel that JWP seems to believe that he is the 3rd centre half when KWP goes flying down the right wing, JWP immediately slips back next to Vest & Bed.  I know it makes sense under certain circumstances, but in some matches he seems to be spending all the match just outside our own penalty area. I sympathise with Diallo because it means he is a one man midfield chasing the ball.  I do think that some of it is a loss of confidence in the defence, so we spend too much time trying to help out, rather than playing to our (previous) strengths which was pressing higher up the pitch. 

Confidence can be a very flimsy thing but also difficult to recover. Look at Redmond a month or so ago he couldn't kick a football and for the past 3 games seems to have regained his mojo. But, I think Saints need to be brave and try and regain their confidence and start playing higher up the pitch, so the whole team gets their mojo back, rather than just individuals.  

Last night and Newcastle away were very very worrying performances. I am losing my belief that this can be turned around. I hope that I am wrong. 

I agree that JWP and Diallo don't have their partnership sorted yet, but it will come with time, a good preseason will help with that. As for turning it around, we need one or two really good first team signings (LB and GK) and four or five depth signings, also replacements for any first teamer who goes, in order to push on for europe. If we go into next season with this squad as is I think we finish about 10th-14th again as that is about our quality. We are ok at the moment, our team is pretty midtable, higher if we can stay fit and firing, but we won't kick on without key investment in depth. And I think JWP being so knackered is a symptom of that. He used to be both the 3rd CB and an attacking mid, it's why he ran the most in europe last season, but it isn't sustainable and we need a back up we can trust who can rotate with him in the cups and when injured and we don't have that right now.

Edited by TWar
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We miss Romeu horribly, one of our most under appreciated players for years. He was our player of the season until he got injured, he ran games from the midfield, such a shame we lost him. 

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If we had two 'hard' midfielders in those two positions all season we would probably go down. Whilst jwp wss poor last night, if you look at the period between the second and third goals, only him and Armstrong were moving the ball forwards. The idea of him been cowardly with the ball is stuck about 3 years in the past. Also how many players scream in each other's faces anymore? Particularly non centre backs? Footballers are pampered over paid sensitive little shits. You start screaming in their faces and they will probably down tools. 

The problem is we don't have a genuine back up for romeu. Diallo isn't it, and doesn't make a good foil for jwp. I'm also not convinced Diallo understands when to press as a team. There have been numerous occasions over seen jwp push up, but Diallo not. 

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I was listening to some podcast or other and there was a discussion about things that the journalists notice now they are physically at games with no fans. Things that you'd never realise in a full stadium.

And one journalists observation was that Ward Prowse is an absolute little shit. Pretty sure they used that exact phrase. Constantly giving lip out all match, like a Brad Haddin style Aussie wicket keeper, just constant stream of little digs dished out to opponents all match. And of course we've all seen little bits of his shit-housery from time to time.

I know there are people that have just decided he's a vicar's son wouldn't say boo to a goose type, because they decided that many years ago and will never change their mind. But there is probably another side to the story. The other side being, you know, reality.

Edited by CB Fry
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21 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

I was listening to some podcast or other and there was a discussion about things that the journalists notice now they are physically at games with no fans. Things that you'd never realise in a full stadium.

And one journalists observation was that Ward Prowse is an absolute little shit. Pretty sure they used that exact phrase. Constantly giving lip out all match, like a Brad Haddin style Austin wicket keeper, just constant stream of little digs dished out to opponents all match. And of course we've all seen little bits of his shit-housery from time to time.

I know there are people that have just decided he's a vicar's son wouldn't say boo to a goose type, because they decided that many years ago and will never change their mind. But there is probably another side to the story. The other side being, you know, reality.

His glorious playing of Zaha a season ago or so was peak JWP. He really can be a swine when he wants.

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13 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Prowse sums up everything that’s wrong with the club. Too polite, too nice, son in law material. May get away with it playing alongside some real men, but not with this lot. Bottle job that should of been stripped of the captaincy when he ducked out of the way and cost us a goal. If he’s a leader, my cocks a carrot. 

If I were you I would stay away from the rabbits then Duckie! Yes, I remember football in the 70’s too and fortunately the days of kicking lumps out of players or shouting in referees faces are long gone. JWP is a decent player but can’t do it all on his own. He forged a decent partnership with Romeu and was pivotal to our performances when we were playing well. There is a lot more to his game than just set pieces. Our problem is that we don’t have the fitness or depth of squad to keep playing a high intensity game. Even the mighty Liverpool are finding that is a tough call. RH needs to find another way of playing that suits this average EPL squad. There is nothing wrong with being a middle of the table side and we know that we can play a lot better then we have been this year but Ralph is struggling to find consistency and that is not down to JWP being a mummy’s boy. Our current way of playing makes it much too easy to get at the back four.

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33 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

Yeah, JWP really isn't "too nice".  He's just not particularly good at non-set piece football, just a solid lower premier league player.  

He very clearly is better than, "lower premier league player".

And regardless, he is one of our best players.... Fuck me, but some of our fans absolutely lose their shit when things are going bad. I genuinely wonder how we survived as a fanbase on our way down the leagues.

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I think we need to start Djenepo more. JWP has to run around so much as he's covering every position and is key to the press, clearly its taken its toll. I think we need more players who are good against the ball and energetic. Theo is a liability against the ball and his sloppiness on the ball costs us a lot of possession, he also doesn't track back well enough so whatever side he was on (he switched multiple times) was the side they seemed to have overloads, KWP was being doubled up on a bunch. If there is one thing that game convinced me of, it is that we shouldn't offer Theo another contract. I know it is a little off topic given this thread is about the CM partnership but control in the midfield and pressing isn't just on those two and Theo really isn't up to it.

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1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

He very clearly is better than, "lower premier league player".

And regardless, he is one of our best players.... Fuck me, but some of our fans absolutely lose their shit when things are going bad. I genuinely wonder how we survived as a fanbase on our way down the leagues.

If you think my post is "losing my shit", you should see me angry.

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15 hours ago, Nemi said:

Ward-Prowse was totally anonymous, and Diallo was all over the place trying to cover for him (and failing miserably). Then Bednarek rushes out into midfield and leaves the defence totally exposed. I like Diallo but our CBs and CDMs just aren’t good enough for this level.

Glad it wasn’t just me that thought that. Mind you they weren’t helped by players passing to the opposing team ala Ings 

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4 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

If we had two 'hard' midfielders in those two positions all season we would probably go down. 

What a load of old pony.

If we had 2 hard men protecting the back 4 or even 2 OR’s, we wouldn’t be such a shambles . We don’t win fuck all in midfield, are too one paced and too polite. Tackles don’t fly in, West Brom the latest to be given free reign in the centre of midfield. Fuck me, we play like it’s a 5-a-side game. 

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The bottom line is we only have one effective defensive midfielder in our squad, Romeu, and he's out injured. Both Diallo and Ward-Prowse would be fine if they had him alongside them. Could we buy another one? Defensive midfield is not the most glamorous of positions and they don't command big transfer fees as Spurs discovered when they bought Hojbjerg.  Right now we could do with someone like Harrison Reed.

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5 hours ago, saintwbu said:

We miss Romeu horribly, one of our most under appreciated players for years. He was our player of the season until he got injured, he ran games from the midfield, such a shame we lost him. 

Our defensive midfielders always are underappreciated by many of our fans. Wanyama, Reed and Hojbjerg were too. The transitional midfielders like Schneiderlin and Diallo tend to get more praise.

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38 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of old pony.

If we had 2 hard men protecting the back 4 or even 2 OR’s, we wouldn’t be such a shambles . We don’t win fuck all in midfield, are too one paced and too polite. Tackles don’t fly in, West Brom the latest to be given free reign in the centre of midfield. Fuck me, we play like it’s a 5-a-side game. 

Ahhhh of course. That must be why every other team in the league plays with two hardmen to great success...Like come on, just about every side plays with one hardman and one who is better on the ball. In fact, you are more likely to see two or three that are ball players then you are to see two hardmen in the centre of the park. Playing a bunch of hardmen is more likely to see you go the way of Stoke than the way of Leicester. Our issue is we need a back up to Romeu and expecting JWP to play that role is just dumb. 

You only gonna infuriate yourself by holding onto such unrealistic expectations of how football is being played at the moment. It's moved on. Just like it will move on from where it is now. I guess this is also why you hold such animosity to anyone who uses stats when analysing players, cos that is a more modern thing. Even though every coaching and management side is heavily indebted in stats, particularly the most successful systems at the moment, anyone who dares to also use them is just called a 'hipster' fan. 

I'm not sure what your views were of him at the time. But we had a player who beat his chest, roared away and charged into tackles. And most people were pretty happy to see Hojberg leave. 

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I'm old-fashioned and have never liked the two-man midfield. I think games are won and lost there, and we are all too frequently outnumbered and overrun. It certainly doesn't help that Romeu and Ward-Prowse have not a lick of pace between them.

I'd play three in the middle of the park all the time. Even when it was a stodgy and uncreative three like Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Cork, that solid base allowed us to attack with more freedom from other areas whilst still keeping control over the middle of the park and not leaving the defence exposed. Remember those days before The Alpine Klopp reinvented football tactics, when we scored goals and kept clean sheets?

Diallo's a good signing, long term. He hasn't got to grips with the physicality of the league yet, but he'll learn to use his upper body better in time. You don't need to be a bruiser to compete in the midfield in the Premier League - Ngolo Kante seems to do just fine. The rest of Diallo's game is in pretty good shape - with scope to improve. It's true, though, that he and Prowse are not a natural fit.

I'd prefer to see a combination of Romeu, Prowse, Diallo, Jankewitz, Armstrong and Smallbone as a trio week in week out. We'd obviously then need to focus investment in the wide attacking areas, where our creative options are poor. Michael Olise at Reading (rumoured release clause £11m) would be one I'd check out.

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Both were piss weak again yesterday. 
 

What happened when the worlds best free kick taker got the chance to salvage something from the game? Seconds left, the big men up, even Lurch lumbered out of nets to join in the attack, when it really mattered, what happens ? Fucking catching practise for their keeper. 

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5 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Both were piss weak again yesterday. 
 

What happened when the worlds best free kick taker got the chance to salvage something from the game? Seconds left, the big men up, even Lurch lumbered out of nets to join in the attack, when it really mattered, what happens ? Fucking catching practise for their keeper. 

I know you dont like him but your becoming a bit obsessed, did he do your daughter or something?

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8 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Nope. I wouldn’t mind a nice boy like him dating my daughter, I just don’t want him as our captain and midfield general. He’s our very own Mark Noble and you clowns over rate him big time. 

I never said anything about rating him but your continued bashing of him is a bit OTT

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2 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

I never said anything about rating him but your continued bashing of him is a bit OTT

Why? People keep going on about Redmond, Stephens, they  kept going on about Pelligrino, why is James ward Noble above criticism 

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While it's true that Ward Prowse flatters to deceive on occasions, I think he seems to perform better in the brief outings he has had for England rather than us. I don't know if that's because with England he is obviously surrounded by better players, or that he is playing in a more natural position for him. I saw him play a number of forward passes playing for England than I ever have whilst playing for us. Maybe he is another PEH, a player just playing for the wrong club, in a system that doesn't suit his game. 

Or maybe Southgate is just a better manager than Ralph.

 

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5 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Why? People keep going on about Redmond, Stephens, they  kept going on about Pelligrino, why is James ward Noble above criticism 

No player should be immune from criticism, especially when they havent been playing well. He hasnt been good in recent weeks, but then most of the team have been poor too.

However taking this PL season alone, he is joint 2nd for most goals, most assists, his set plays are a massive asset to us and hes played every minute when the rest of the team has fallen down around him. I know you wouldnt, but most fans would have him in their top 3 players this season. Hes deservedly got himself into the England team and scored. Therefore he deserves some slack if performance levels drop for a period.

To draw comparisons with criticism of Redmond or Stephens is silly. Both have been delivering under par performances (bar the odd game) for quite a while now. Their contribution to our team is way below what Ward-Prowse has contributed this season or last.

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On 13/04/2021 at 18:17, TWar said:

If there is one thing that game convinced me of, it is that we shouldn't offer Theo another contract. I know it is a little off topic given this thread is about the CM partnership but control in the midfield and pressing isn't just on those two and Theo really isn't up to it.

Can't disagree with you more, I was shocked to see Theo left out of the starting line-up and it showed. He has his faults but he's fast, direct, experienced and we're more threatening when he's playing.

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On 13/04/2021 at 06:37, jasonb said:

I've been saying this for a while now to my son. We had a bit of meanness about us after first lockdown last season and the start of this season. I recall the 2-2 United game in particular getting right into them. Romeu possibly lucky to stay on the pitch for that one. 

We have been soft as shite in recent months. We barely get in the refs face, hardly argue for anything and are generally too bloody easy to play against. Worst thing is, everyone else knows it too. 

Get that guile and nastiness back and we might actually start getting at teams a bit more. JWP sets the tone as the leader and agree he's gone missing a bit in that department. Fatigue and out of form possibly but bloody bollock some players now and again. 

Agree entirely, and it's not just JWP. Bednarek reminds me of the chap who befriends a giant rabbit in the movie Harvey, while Vestergaard for all his physical presence could be My Lady Frankenstein. Redmond is another delicate flower. Wish Jack Cork was still around.

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On 13/04/2021 at 11:13, Saint86 said:

He very clearly is better than, "lower premier league player".

And regardless, he is one of our best players.... Fuck me, but some of our fans absolutely lose their shit when things are going bad. I genuinely wonder how we survived as a fanbase on our way down the leagues.

I’m not really too sure why this is controversial. He plays for a bottom-half team, and no-one in the top half has ever been interested. You have to be pretty damn good to be a lower-half premier league player. He just doesn’t have that sparkle that’s required for a top-half player.

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I thought he was pretty decent when he made his debut. But since the injury I've been very underwhelmed. Harrison Reed was never allowed to put in as many consecutive bad performances as Diallo. And if I'm honest, I don't see him stepping up. If he's starting next season, we are in trouble. We have too many issues without addressing his position. 

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On 19/04/2021 at 19:02, Lee On Solent Saint said:

While it's true that Ward Prowse flatters to deceive on occasions, I think he seems to perform better in the brief outings he has had for England rather than us. I don't know if that's because with England he is obviously surrounded by better players, or that he is playing in a more natural position for him. I saw him play a number of forward passes playing for England than I ever have whilst playing for us. Maybe he is another PEH, a player just playing for the wrong club, in a system that doesn't suit his game. 

Or maybe Southgate is just a better manager than Ralph.

 

Great shout ........was thinking exactly that on watching that turgid display on Sunday. How many times did he make good runs forward whilst playing on the right side for England?,seems very reluctant to do so for the club  why do we always have to recycle what at the time seems a good opportunity only to see the ball back at the feet of the keeper who then blasts the ball from wheres its just been only to find the touch line totally baffling.

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11 hours ago, Roo1976 said:

Great shout ........was thinking exactly that on watching that turgid display on Sunday. How many times did he make good runs forward whilst playing on the right side for England?,seems very reluctant to do so for the club  why do we always have to recycle what at the time seems a good opportunity only to see the ball back at the feet of the keeper who then blasts the ball from wheres its just been only to find the touch line totally baffling.

Well - firstly he's played for England against terrible opposition which means he has way less defensive responsibility.

Secondly, the system are different, he's 1 of 2 defensive midfielders in our side, and the 2 wide players are a long way forward.

He didn't have a good game, and probably needs a rest, but there is no-one else to play there, and he's been pretty decent all season. (excellent in parts)

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