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10 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

I see that Mike Dean issued another red card today. 

 

I wonder why players behave so badly and need so many redand yellow cards when he is the ref.

https://www.premierleague.com/referees/index

I dont think these figures include today's match

They probably are thick as mince and do not understand the laws.

 

Referees and umpires sometimes get things wrong but should be respected otherwise there would be no sport.

 

 

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Indeed they should be respected, but that respect gets eroded with every bizarre mistake - and we're not talking ordinary marginal mistakes that occur sometimes, we are talking huge basic errors that no one in their right mind would make.

Rugby has got it right - there are so few mistakes that the respect remains and it's good to see.

But football has a serious problem with the standard and consistency of refs on the pitch and operating VAR.

Some of the weird things that we have seen this year are beyond logical explanation - football stands alone as a sport that has introduced all the correct tools but managed to get officiating this wrong.

If anyone needs a rebuild during the summer it's the referees, they've had a shocker of a season.

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I wonder if Mike Dean is biased towards certain clubs. He shouldn't be if he is a ref but sometimes his decisions smack as favouritism. He gets some form of warped pleasure whipping out his yellow and red cards. The FA need to use the summer break to completely overhaul how VAR is being use and to educate the referees. 

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4 hours ago, John B said:

They probably are thick as mince and do not understand the laws.

 

Referees and umpires sometimes get things wrong but should be respected otherwise there would be no sport.

 

 

Can't respect cheaters! They try to control games, not give out fair and equal punishments. VAR, ability to pause and rewind the game have all shown how many mistakes  (cheats) they can make. The truly honest ones should be screaming for a better system to assist them like the Rugby  cricket system. 

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3 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Indeed they should be respected, but that respect gets eroded with every bizarre mistake - and we're not talking ordinary marginal mistakes that occur sometimes, we are talking huge basic errors that no one in their right mind would make.

Rugby has got it right - there are so few mistakes that the respect remains and it's good to see.

But football has a serious problem with the standard and consistency of refs on the pitch and operating VAR.

Some of the weird things that we have seen this year are beyond logical explanation - football stands alone as a sport that has introduced all the correct tools but managed to get officiating this wrong.

If anyone needs a rebuild during the summer it's the referees, they've had a shocker of a season.

As a wise old man once told me "You can't demand respect. You can only earn it."

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53 minutes ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

Can't respect cheaters! They try to control games, not give out fair and equal punishments. VAR, ability to pause and rewind the game have all shown how many mistakes  (cheats) they can make. The truly honest ones should be screaming for a better system to assist them like the Rugby  cricket system. 

Inflammatory gibberish!

If you're making allegations of cheating then you had better have the evidence to back up your otherwise libellous claims. 

The stark reality is that refs do their best to manage games but the pace of the modern game together with ill defined rules is making their jobs nigh impossible. Of course they make mistakes as indeed all of us do in our own jobs but that doesn't mean they are biased in any way.  

Had you not considered that if anybody is cheating it is the players up to all sorts of tricks when they think refs are not looking. How does that make the refs job any less difficult?

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5 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Indeed they should be respected, but that respect gets eroded with every bizarre mistake - and we're not talking ordinary marginal mistakes that occur sometimes, we are talking huge basic errors that no one in their right mind would make.

Rugby has got it right - there are so few mistakes that the respect remains and it's good to see.

But football has a serious problem with the standard and consistency of refs on the pitch and operating VAR.

Some of the weird things that we have seen this year are beyond logical explanation - football stands alone as a sport that has introduced all the correct tools but managed to get officiating this wrong.

If anyone needs a rebuild during the summer it's the referees, they've had a shocker of a season.

It's not quite that simple. There are lots of contentious calls in rugby union over scrums, for instance, and they can have a big impact on the match but: i) dissent is not tolerated; ii) for the big calls, they use video review properly and transparently.

The thing that always gets me about football, is that it would be very easy to improve the respect and standing of referees and stamp out a lot of the basic cheating that goes on.

Shout at a ref / lino - yellow card, no questions.

Swear at ref / lino - yellow card, no question.

Pick up or move the ball when your team has conceded a free kick or throw in before it has been taken - yellow card, no question.

Delay a free kick or throw in being taken - yellow card, no question.

Have a match clock on scoreboard to stop "he's played too much / not enough" controversy. 

Simple steps to improve discipline and create a culture of respect. It does my head in that players are allowed to concede a free kick then pick the ball up and run ten or twenty yards before lobbing it back. That's cheating and should be a yellow. Same as closing down a free kick. Yellow every time. 

The refs could actually implement these rules and they would find their lives would be getting easier.

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I see Dermot Gallagher on sky sports making some gibberish up about Vesty decision being correct , the only person including nearly all pro's managers and players saying it was incorrect 

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35 minutes ago, benjii said:

It's not quite that simple. There are lots of contentious calls in rugby union over scrums, for instance, and they can have a big impact on the match but: i) dissent is not tolerated; ii) for the big calls, they use video review properly and transparently.

The thing that always gets me about football, is that it would be very easy to improve the respect and standing of referees and stamp out a lot of the basic cheating that goes on.

Shout at a ref / lino - yellow card, no questions.

Swear at ref / lino - yellow card, no question.

Pick up or move the ball when your team has conceded a free kick or throw in before it has been taken - yellow card, no question.

Delay a free kick or throw in being taken - yellow card, no question.

Have a match clock on scoreboard to stop "he's played too much / not enough" controversy. 

Simple steps to improve discipline and create a culture of respect. It does my head in that players are allowed to concede a free kick then pick the ball up and run ten or twenty yards before lobbing it back. That's cheating and should be a yellow. Same as closing down a free kick. Yellow every time. 

The refs could actually implement these rules and they would find their lives would be getting easier.

Totally agree. All these annoy me as well. I would also add "appeal for anything" = yellow card. It really annoys me when players put the ball in to touch and then appeal for a throw. Also "walk away when the ref is trying to talk to you" = red card.

But I would also add that the assistants should be trained as to when the ball is out of play. The ball has to go some way to be fully out but they tend to flag when it is only half out.

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5 hours ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

I wonder if Mike Dean is biased towards certain clubs. He shouldn't be if he is a ref but sometimes his decisions smack as favouritism. He gets some form of warped pleasure whipping out his yellow and red cards. 

Dean likes to “see” things others don’t or give decisions that cause controversy. I quite like a bit of character in a referee and enjoyed his “ no look” cards. But he’s now jumped the shark and started believing his own hype. 

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The best referees are not characters, they just do the job and no one notices them.

Anyone who loves themselves too much should not be given a whistle.

 

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4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

He was good on the pitch but these days he is a great proponent of VAR so I have changed my mind over him.

 

Nothing wrong in principle with VAR, it's the way it is used that is the problem.

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11 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Nothing wrong in principle with VAR, it's the way it is used that is the problem.

You could say that about anything that doesn’t work properly. “In theory it works perfectly”.

There is also the converse in a famous quote,

“this is all very well in practice. But how does it work out in theory?”

 

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13 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You could say that about anything that doesn’t work properly. “In theory it works perfectly”.

There is also the converse in a famous quote,

“this is all very well in practice. But how does it work out in theory?”

 

If VAR worked like international cricket and rugby, it would be much better. Neither sport is afraid for on field officials to be over-ridden, and the verbal exchanges are broadcast for clarity. How many red cards will have been rescinded in the Premier League by the end of the season - every one should have been corrected at the time they were issued.

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59 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Pony

 

 

9449EF89-CDBE-44A3-B660-FDE553FCAA3E.jpeg

Utter pony.

He wasn't a character who wanted to be the star, he was just a really good referee who imposed himself on players.

And don't bother to respond again on my behalf - you lost me after you admitted that you enjoyed the antics of Mike Dean.

😲

 

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3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Dean likes to “see” things others don’t or give decisions that cause controversy. I quite like a bit of character in a referee and enjoyed his “ no look” cards. But he’s now jumped the shark and started believing his own hype. 

 

11 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Utter pony.

He wasn't a character who wanted to be the star, he was just a really good referee who imposed himself on players.

And don't bother to respond again on my behalf - you lost me after you admitted that you enjoyed the antics of Mike Dean.

 

You lost me when you twisted my words. 

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3 hours ago, rallyboy said:

The best referees are not characters, they just do the job and no one notices them.

Anyone who loves themselves too much should not be given a whistle.

 

Couldn’t agree more. No one watches football for the referee....apart from Duckie perhaps?

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26 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Or another referee...

Agree with this. I got as far as refereeing in the Wessex League/early rounds of the FA Vase/FA Cup before work got in the way & I still find myself trying to put myself in the referee's shoes when they make "Interesting" decisions......

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38 minutes ago, sibster said:

Agree with this. I got as far as refereeing in the Wessex League/early rounds of the FA Vase/FA Cup before work got in the way & I still find myself trying to put myself in the referee's shoes when they make "Interesting" decisions......

Respect!

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23 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Indeed they should be respected, but that respect gets eroded with every bizarre mistake - and we're not talking ordinary marginal mistakes that occur sometimes, we are talking huge basic errors that no one in their right mind would make.

Rugby has got it right - there are so few mistakes that the respect remains and it's good to see.

But football has a serious problem with the standard and consistency of refs on the pitch and operating VAR.

Some of the weird things that we have seen this year are beyond logical explanation - football stands alone as a sport that has introduced all the correct tools but managed to get officiating this wrong.

If anyone needs a rebuild during the summer it's the referees, they've had a shocker of a season.

So true.  The appeal against the red card given by mistake to Vestergaaard will test the integrity of referee management and the VAR system.  I don't criticise the ref for showing the card because in real time, and from where he was positioned he couldn't see that Vestergaard had played the ball.But the VAR referee could, or should, have seen that and made the mistake of substituting his own decision over that of the match ref, who should have been advised to look at the incident on the pitch-side monitor.  

So we have two mistakes, one by the referee, a genuine error that should have been corrected and one by the video ref who made a serious mistake that undermined the match entirely by making one team play one player short.

The appeal can only restore Vestergaard's disciplinary record and his availability for the next game.  It cannot restore the points that Southampton could have earned from that match and the league position that has cost the club.  To allow the appeal will be an admission that the system is flawed.  Even if the red card is replaced by a yellow, that would still be an incorrect decision but one can see the panel being tempted to try to placate the club but not to admit the failing in the VAR referee system.

I doubt if they will rescind the card entirely, motivated by a wish to deflect criticism but to me, that would suggest the cover-up of a flawed system.

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There are a few comparisons above with rugby. Another one to note is that touch judges are very influential in rugby, I'm not sure what their equivalents (linesmen / assistants), remit is in football. They are often best place to see incidents but often don't seem to get involved or have an opinion?

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4 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

There are a few comparisons above with rugby. Another one to note is that touch judges are very influential in rugby, I'm not sure what their equivalents (linesmen / assistants), remit is in football. They are often best place to see incidents but often don't seem to get involved or have an opinion?

Not sure how it works these days, but many, many, years ago there was a TV documentary about the then top flight referee David Ellerey, and before one match the camera caught him telling a linesman "when the ball goes out for a throw in I'll indicate to you which way to flag".

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34 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Not sure how it works these days, but many, many, years ago there was a TV documentary about the then top flight referee David Ellerey, and before one match the camera caught him telling a linesman "when the ball goes out for a throw in I'll indicate to you which way to flag".

They usually decide between themselves which way it goes. Sometimes there is a possibility of a doubt and you will see the referee pointing discreetly with his hand but not his arm. 
 

In Sunday League football the linesman are usually provided by the two teams and the instructions are usually “ball in or out of play and offsides” but the referee will keep a close watch on them, particularly for the offsides.
 

Are you sure that Mike Dean didn’t add some condition upon his instructions?

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I am not fussed about which Referee gives the most red cards. I want to know which referees have have the most overturned on appeal over the last five years. They are the mistakes that have a direct consequence on the outcome of games.

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Anyone who thinks that Collina is a character should read his book (The Rules of the Game) 🤨

Absolutely the worst biography I've ever read (worse than Colin Montgomery's and that's saying summat!) - boring as fuck....

He was a good ref but certainly not a character !

Now Dean, he is a character but not a good ref as he prefers to be the centre of attention....

All in my own, honest opinion of course !

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  • 2 weeks later...

Has Mike Dean (or any other ref) managed to explain his decision to give Liverpool a free kick (which started the move from which they scored)  when he got in their way against WBA the other day?

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1 hour ago, Wurzel said:

Has Mike Dean (or any other ref) managed to explain his decision to give Liverpool a free kick (which started the move from which they scored)  when he got in their way against WBA the other day?

I need to defend Mike Dean's decision here:

He probably had his head so far up his own arse, he didn't actually see the incident.

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2 hours ago, Wurzel said:

Has Mike Dean (or any other ref) managed to explain his decision to give Liverpool a free kick (which started the move from which they scored)  when he got in their way against WBA the other day?

and how he let the keeper where the same kit as him, sure they have to have different colours on the pitch.

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13 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

and how he let the keeper where the same kit as him, sure they have to have different colours on the pitch.

Indeed. In fact, it could have been Mike Dean who headed that winning goal for "the dippers". Now there's a story.

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