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First team coaches - sack the lot?


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Adam Blackmore saying on radio that Ralph needs to have better coaches around him, but that he also would need to listen to them too. 
 

His lack of interaction with the staff compared with Bielsa and other managers shows either he doesn’t trust them or that they don’t offer anything other than putting the cones out. 
 

If Ralph continues on, which is likely because we can’t afford to let him go financially, then surely he needs to be able to appoint his own quality staff instead of this lot that Les left, or be told that it clearly isn’t working well enough with him and this current coaching team.

standards need to be raised where we can afford to do it and first team coaches and fitness staff won’t cost the same as a substitute midfielder and could be more impactful. 

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I've never been sure what credentials Davis had to become one of our first team coaches to be honest? He just seems to have gone straight into the first team coaching setup on the merit of being 'one of the lads'.

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I think our coaching setup is absolute bollocks to be honest. You've got two ex goalkeepers presumably coaching outfield players. Call me old school, but I'd want keepers actually coaching other keepers not teaching Che Adams how to finish. Watching them arse around with flip charts etc is total shit. We've got quality ex players out there who we should absolutely be looking at, instead of giving jobs to the boys. I'd love to see the likes of Michael Svensson coming into coach our defenders to actually defend. 

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Having 2 goalkeepers on the first team coaching set up just doesn’t make sense. Ralph needs a sammy Lee Lee like character with him who interacts with the players from the sideline. Also someone with a bit of experience wouldn’t go amiss…

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24 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I think our coaching setup is absolute bollocks to be honest. You've got two ex goalkeepers presumably coaching outfield players. Call me old school, but I'd want keepers actually coaching other keepers not teaching Che Adams how to finish. Watching them arse around with flip charts etc is total shit. We've got quality ex players out there who we should absolutely be looking at, instead of giving jobs to the boys. I'd love to see the likes of Michael Svensson coming into coach our defenders to actually defend. 

Call me old fashioned but why do we pay £15m for Che Adams if he does not know how to finish 

 

I watched Saints in the 1960s when we had less coaches but got similar results

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4 minutes ago, John B said:

Call me old fashioned but why do we pay £15m for Che Adams if he does not know how to finish 

 

I watched Saints in the 1960s when we had less coaches but got similar results

What like last Saturday Ffs

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4 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

The main reason to sack Kelvin Davis is to stop the fanbase fucking moaning about Kelvin Davis.

 

Do you think he adds anything to our coaching setup? Apart from gathering the balls up at the end of each session and picking up the cones?

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10 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Do you think he adds anything to our coaching setup? Apart from gathering the balls up at the end of each session and picking up the cones?

Without knowing what is in his Job Description I doubt we can decide whether he is performing well especially if the players are not of high consistent quality.

 

 

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1 minute ago, John B said:

Without knowing what is in his Job Description I doubt we can decide whether he is performing well especially if the players are not of high consistent quality.

 

 

But surely if you have a goalkeeper coaching outfield players, then you have a massive problem? You think Harry Kane gets coached by Paul Robinson at Spurs?

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1 hour ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I think our coaching setup is absolute bollocks to be honest. You've got two ex goalkeepers presumably coaching outfield players. Call me old school, but I'd want keepers actually coaching other keepers not teaching Che Adams how to finish. Watching them arse around with flip charts etc is total shit. We've got quality ex players out there who we should absolutely be looking at, instead of giving jobs to the boys. I'd love to see the likes of Michael Svensson coming into coach our defenders to actually defend. 

I guess the issue is

1. Does a player like Michael Scensson want to coach. 
2. just because he was a good defender, can he actually coach? Not always guaranteed. 
 

I’m not sure it’s coaching that’s the issue, it’s more than Ralph has seemingly little to no help tactically. Maybe he wants that, if he does, then more fool him. 
 

He needs a number 2, imo. 

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44 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Do you think he adds anything to our coaching setup? Apart from gathering the balls up at the end of each session and picking up the cones?

Absolutely no idea whatsoever. 

If you think he is the reason we've had a ropey season, fill your boots sunshine.

If Ralph wanted to move him on he could have by now.

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41 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

But surely if you have a goalkeeper coaching outfield players, then you have a massive problem? You think Harry Kane gets coached by Paul Robinson at Spurs?

Its like trying to blame the Roadie for a shit album. Ralph is the manager, not fucking Kelvin Davis 

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Do I have any idea what Kelvin Davis brings to the training ground? No.

Do I find it just a little bit convenient that one of the best available coaches in Europe just happened to be a goalkeeper who'd been here 10 years already? Yes.

Is it a bit of a coincidence that we needed to hire another coach at exactly the same moment that Kelvin retired from playing? Also yes.

Do I think he's a major reason for our current problems? Probably not.

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To be honest, the quality of coaches around Ralph can only be blamed on Ralph. With the level of autonomy hes allowed at this club already, if he wasnt happy with the coaches around him he could click his fingers and changes would be made. He cant claim that hes been lumbered with these coaches and not able to do anything about it

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10 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I think our coaching setup is absolute bollocks to be honest. You've got two ex goalkeepers presumably coaching outfield players. Call me old school, but I'd want keepers actually coaching other keepers not teaching Che Adams how to finish. Watching them arse around with flip charts etc is total shit. We've got quality ex players out there who we should absolutely be looking at, instead of giving jobs to the boys. I'd love to see the likes of Michael Svensson coming into coach our defenders to actually defend. 

So are you saying that only a defender can coach a defender, and only a winger can coach a winger? It's nonsense. Coaches can coach anyone. Goalkeepers spend their game watching the whole game and can offer loads as a coach. Indeed, on your Che Adams point, a keeper would have had the likes of Adams trying to finish past them which kind of helps when coaching the striker. 

Our coaches may or not be shit, but their playing position ain't the issue. 

Regardless, there's too many excuses given to Ralph. The other day it was the lack of investment, then the squad, now the coaches. It'll be the food in the canteen next. The buck stops with him. 

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9 hours ago, SKD said:

I guess the issue is

1. Does a player like Michael Scensson want to coach. 
2. just because he was a good defender, can he actually coach? Not always guaranteed. 
 

I’m not sure it’s coaching that’s the issue, it’s more than Ralph has seemingly little to no help tactically. Maybe he wants that, if he does, then more fool him. 
 

He needs a number 2, imo

This keeps coming up. He has one. 

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Posted (edited)

Kelvin was a player well liked in the club, who was given some player liaison gig when he retired; then suddenly became first team coach. Then we've go the old GK coach (can't remember blondies name), who was made fist team (outfield!) coach. And Curtis Flemming, who if I recall joined as something to do with youth teams, and did so without a great reputation.

Not exactly the creme-de-la-menthe, is it?

When was the last time a manager at Saints brought in their own team? Presumably, given the investment we have in Ralph, he is allowed to have the team he wants? (Assuming we have any $$$). Perhaps he thinks they're good enough?

Edited by Suhari
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8 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Do I find it just a little bit convenient that one of the best available coaches in Europe just happened to be a goalkeeper who'd been here 10 years already? Yes.

I may have missed the point where Kelvin was described as "one of the best available coaches in Europe".

Who said this, and when?

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10 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

I may have missed the point where Kelvin was described as "one of the best available coaches in Europe".

Who said this, and when?

Think it was said tongue in cheek.

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Hard to tell if it’s the coaches or players. There is a number 2 - Richard someone who finally replaced his old number 2 who went to Germany. You could argue the coaching team have improved some players - JWP / Romeu / KWP / Adams / Tella / Salisu / Vestigaard and we seem above average at set pieces (even though that offside trap terrifies me) and have a decent plan A. Evidence suggests clear issues in defensive work, final 3rd decisions, youth/reserves, in game tactic changes. 
I don’t think we have the right coaching set up personally for those reasons so getting some proven talent here (even if that means compensation) would seem a good use of money.

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50 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

I may have missed the point where Kelvin was described as "one of the best available coaches in Europe".

Who said this, and when?

Yeah me too.

Who said that?

"One of the best available coaches in Europe"

I'm covering my bases and saying it's sarcasm just in case.

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1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

I may have missed the point where Kelvin was described as "one of the best available coaches in Europe".

Who said this, and when?

He wasn’t. The point is that we haven’t gone out to try and find the best coach possible, we’ve appointed someone who’s already here out of convenience and it’s most definitely ‘jobs for the boys’. It seems to be part of a culture of giving jobs to people who are supposedly popular in the dressing room, like Long and Walcott, which I’m not a fan of.

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Dave Watson is like an infection you can't shift, how many managers has he worked with now.

I think with Watson/Davis any manager is going to have them so the club retain "continuity" which in our case is 2 keepers who coach keepers badly and outfield players worse.

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2 hours ago, JustinSFC said:

Blackmore is getting more vocal with every passing game, keep in mind he is employed by the BBC and he needs to keep his access...

 

 

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I wonder if Blackmore is slightly irked by the fact that he wasn't chosen to run the last fans forum, given he's been on the mic for previous ones? Maybe he's not quite as 'in' as he was and he's decided to be a bit more vocal as a result?

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15 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The buck stops with the manager, not the fucking coaches. Blackmore needs to grow a pair and call Ralph out instead of hiding behind “he needs better coaches”. 

No No No. its all Eric Black's fault.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

He wasn’t. The point is that we haven’t gone out to try and find the best coach possible, we’ve appointed someone who’s already here out of convenience and it’s most definitely ‘jobs for the boys’. It seems to be part of a culture of giving jobs to people who are supposedly popular in the dressing room, like Long and Walcott, which I’m not a fan of.

 

3 hours ago, JustinSFC said:

Yeah me too.

Who said that?

"One of the best available coaches in Europe"

I'm covering my bases and saying it's sarcasm just in case.

I get the piss take but the premise is bullshit.

We're not sourcing the best available fucking players in Europe so why would every appointment to our backroom staff be at that level.

As Lord D says the buck stops with the manager. Ralph's had a high enough standing in the club to successfully elbow Kelvin into a different/reduced role. Unlike with players that would be pretty easy.

He hasn't. Its 100% on him.

Edited by CB Fry
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4 hours ago, egg said:

This keeps coming up. He has one. 

Possibly in title, but how effective / involved is he? For example, when Rohl was at the club, visually he was stood next to Ralph and you could tell he has an input. 
 

Id love to know what actually happened between the 2 of them. 

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2 hours ago, Ivan Katalinic's 'tache said:

I wonder if Blackmore is slightly irked by the fact that he wasn't chosen to run the last fans forum, given he's been on the mic for previous ones? Maybe he's not quite as 'in' as he was and he's decided to be a bit more vocal as a result?

Wasnt the Blackmore hosted one on Solent  whereas the latest one was a club only thing ?

I only recall him hosting Solent aired forums tbh, might be wrong. 

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1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

We're not sourcing the best available fucking players in Europe so why would every appointment to our backroom staff be at that level.

The best available as in, the best we can get within our budget. We may not have the budget of the supposed Super League clubs but by virtue of simply being in the PL we've got more financial clout than the likes of Ajax, Celtic, Copenhagen, Anderlecht and a bunch of other European giants. 

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Posted (edited)
On 19/05/2021 at 04:43, madge said:

Ralph needs a Sammy Lee like character with him who interacts with the players from the sideline.

Fat lot of good Sammy Lee has done for West Brom. He's only there so Big Sam Allardyce can look like a cool dude sitting during games as Little Sam prowls the sidelines.

Edited by Singapore Saint
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16 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Absolutely no idea whatsoever. 

If you think he is the reason we've had a ropey season, fill your boots sunshine.

If Ralph wanted to move him on he could have by now.

Absolutely not suggesting that's why we have been shit at times this season. Point I was trying to make is that we always seem to have coaches that are just there at the time. I've no problem with Kelvin Davis and Dave Watson coaching keepers as they were keepers themselves. I just don't see the point of them coaching outfield positions. We never seem to be pro-active in sourcing the best that we can get. So, in short, I was trying to say that we could do a lot better in the coaching department.

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7 hours ago, egg said:

So are you saying that only a defender can coach a defender, and only a winger can coach a winger? It's nonsense. Coaches can coach anyone. Goalkeepers spend their game watching the whole game and can offer loads as a coach. Indeed, on your Che Adams point, a keeper would have had the likes of Adams trying to finish past them which kind of helps when coaching the striker. 

Our coaches may or not be shit, but their playing position ain't the issue. 

Regardless, there's too many excuses given to Ralph. The other day it was the lack of investment, then the squad, now the coaches. It'll be the food in the canteen next. The buck stops with him. 

Not saying that at all. Certainly not making excuses for Ralph. I just think he needs more help on the bench. I accept that maybe it's a personal choice for him , and that he's not the type of manager to seek a second opinion. However, sometimes I just feel he could use a second pair of eyes on the sidelines. We have Richard Kitz, but you never see him deep in conversation with Ralph, like maybe you would Steve Bruce or Sean Dyche. 

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To be a good team you need good players, a good managers and good coaches  (plus other stuff) If one of these is not there it undermines the quality of the other parts. A recruitment policy of just hiring people who are already there is not always going to give you the best people. However anyone who is going to become skilled at a job has to learn that skill somewhere. So my take would be to hire top level coaches below the manager and then a number of prospective coaches from people you think have potential who can learn on the job and from those other coaches with more experience. Eventually you can end up with a skilled core of senior coaches you could promote from within, and be prepared to cut those who do not work out. But be aware that due to the nature of football teams, often a whole group will leave when a manager leaves. You have to limit the temptation of promoting from within of people not ready to do the job, or blocking brining in the experience you need to teach your other coaches how to be effective.

 

But that is just the normal problem of all businesses regardless of industry.

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Sammy Lee is one of the most respected coaches - when with Koeman here the players loved working with him.

as for the Goalie coach we missed the bus by not bringing “Budgie” John Burridge back to the club when he retired- a proper keeper and decent coach 

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42 minutes ago, The Fat Controller said:

Sammy Lee is one of the most respected coaches - when with Koeman here the players loved working with him.

as for the Goalie coach we missed the bus by not bringing “Budgie” John Burridge back to the club when he retired- a proper keeper and decent coach 

Where has he coached since retiring ? Don't recall hearing anything of him.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Suhari said:

When was the last time a manager at Saints brought in their own team? Presumably, given the investment we have in Ralph, he is allowed to have the team he wants? (Assuming we have any $$$). Perhaps he thinks they're good enough?

Koeman wasn’t it? I know he had Sammy Lee, and his brother Erwin, plus that other Dutch guy that really didn’t want to leave can’t remember his name

Edited by bpsaint
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1 hour ago, bpsaint said:

Koeman wasn’t it? I know he had Sammy Lee, and his brother Erwin, plus that other Dutch guy that really didn’t want to leave can’t remember his name

Jan Kluitenberg ? Think his club just won league in UAE

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On 19/05/2021 at 22:48, CB Fry said:

There once was a time that many people believed that Manchester United were only winning multiple league titles because of Brian Kidd. 

Alec Ferguson was clever enough to realise that he was only as good as the staff around him and used a change of number 2 to modernise, refresh and adapt to new ways of thinking - Brian kidd was part of that and his influence shouldn't be underestimated.

Sadly we keep the same coaches behind the scenes - whether this is Ralph's fault or the board's fault is something I don't think we will ever know. I can't help thinking that Ralph doesn't really listen to anyone else which is why we keep failing in the same way over and over again.

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Coaching set up is an issue across the club. Look at the latest England youth squads and lack of Saints representation across all age groups. 

Do agree, buck stops at Ralph but there are much better coaches available. 

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On 19/05/2021 at 20:13, bpsaint said:

Koeman wasn’t it? I know he had Sammy Lee, and his brother Erwin, plus that other Dutch guy that really didn’t want to leave can’t remember his name

Jan Kluitenburg - he was the conditioning coach. He's at Al Jazira now and they've just wont the league. Genuinely think he's probably missed more then most - Saints were never fitter and in finer form then when Jan was overseeing fitness and conditioning

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