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My disappointment with last nights result was alleviated somewhat by the sight of Kate Moss (the favoured 'friend' of that nice Sir Phillip Green and I feel sure is a regular England supporter at home and abroad) sat up in the posh seats and a rather well upholstered member of the EUFA team involved in the post match presentation body, who was wearing an even worse fitting suit than our dear Prime Minister.
Heartwarming moments to treasure.

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10 minutes ago, benjii said:

Then we'll have no chance of doing anything, unless we get another set of easy fixtures. Not saying JWP is the answer but with the same central midfield we will get schooled by anyone decent. You can't have two cloggers in there and just hope Sterling, Kane or a full back pulls something out of the bag. Admittedly, if you rarely concede that can get you fairly far but if you want to excel you need people who can build play properly. It's not a criticism of anyone in particular, just that if we don't find a better class of ball player in central mid then we have no chance.

Spain absolutely murdered Italy in midfield and would have killed us. I also doubt we would get anything against Belgium or France. So we're something like the 5th best team in Europe. If we had Spain's midfield or Italy's midfield, we'd be the best. Sadly, we don't.

I get what you are saying, but we once had a midfield of Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham once and we achieved jack shit.

Actually just had a look at the team that were knocked out by Portugal in Euro 2004 and apart from the goalie the outfield 10 are better than what we had yesterday in every position. Apart from, funnily enough, maybe one of Rice or Phillips in place of one of the midfielders to add some protection.

Basically, what I'm saying is you can't have it all with England.

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14 minutes ago, benjii said:

Then we'll have no chance of doing anything, unless we get another set of easy fixtures. Not saying JWP is the answer but with the same central midfield we will get schooled by anyone decent. You can't have two cloggers in there and just hope Sterling, Kane or a full back pulls something out of the bag. Admittedly, if you rarely concede that can get you fairly far but if you want to excel you need people who can build play properly. It's not a criticism of anyone in particular, just that if we don't find a better class of ball player in central mid then we have no chance.

Spain absolutely murdered Italy in midfield and would have killed us. I also doubt we would get anything against Belgium or France. So we're something like the 5th best team in Europe. If we had Spain's midfield or Italy's midfield, we'd be the best. Sadly, we don't.

I largely agree with this.

Foden is the only English player I can think of at the moment with the control, technique and vision to dictate a game from midfield although is he actually suited to playing in the middle? Ideally though you need a few players with those skills in the squad like Italy and Spain have.

Bellingham could have a big impact in the next few years and offers something a bit different to Rice,  Phillips and Henderson.

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22 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Cheering players from other teams? No thanks.

Even if people do this, how far down the squad list do you go? Does more minutes on the pitch translate into a bigger cheer? Sancho barely played, how much noise do you make for him as opposed to Stones? What about people in the squad who didn't play like Ramsdale? 

They're not other teams, they're England. That's my team and presumably yours. I'm talking mostly about the boys who missed penalties and need the support that Southgate didn't get in 96. A round of applause would be nice - we do the same for some former Saints so I don't see the problem. But most important is not to boo. We want to win the next tournament and we want them to help.

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9 minutes ago, DuncanRG said:

They're not other teams, they're England. That's my team and presumably yours. I'm talking mostly about the boys who missed penalties and need the support that Southgate didn't get in 96. A round of applause would be nice - we do the same for some former Saints so I don't see the problem. But most important is not to boo. We want to win the next tournament and we want them to help.

No one is going to boo them, certainly not at St Mary's anyway. Pretty much everyone other than some bellends online and a weird Tory MP were behind them to some extent, however when they are playing against us I hope they are utter shit and we walk away with 3 points.

There's no way I'm clapping Mason fucking Mount when he walks on the pitch next season. 

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21 minutes ago, DuncanRG said:

They're not other teams, they're England. That's my team and presumably yours. I'm talking mostly about the boys who missed penalties and need the support that Southgate didn't get in 96. A round of applause would be nice - we do the same for some former Saints so I don't see the problem. But most important is not to boo. We want to win the next tournament and we want them to help.

I don't get this, We are already probably the least hostile away ground in the league, I am not sure that we need to start clapping and cheering opposition players, just because they played for England. They feel comfortable enough already.

 I am also sure that should we actually win in Qatar, Marcus Rashford won't be dedicating it to the Southampton fans for their polite clapping.

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11 minutes ago, The Cat said:

No one is going to boo them, certainly not at St Mary's anyway. Pretty much everyone other than some bellends online and a weird Tory MP were behind them to some extent, however when they are playing against us I hope they are utter shit and we walk away with 3 points.

There's no way I'm clapping Mason fucking Mount when he walks on the pitch next season. 

No, me neither. You're probably right but we've all heard the chants of 'you let your country down' before. I just hope they're a thing of the past. 

Doubt Rashford and co would get that treatment off the bat but if they win a contentious penalty or something, who knows? Sterling gets booed all over the place already, including at St Mary's.

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18 minutes ago, Pedantic Pete said:

I don't get this, We are already probably the least hostile away ground in the league, I am not sure that we need to start clapping and cheering opposition players, just because they played for England. They feel comfortable enough already.

 I am also sure that should we actually win in Qatar, Marcus Rashford won't be dedicating it to the Southampton fans for their polite clapping.

It wouldn’t be the first time though would it. I remember being at a game where fans were ironically cheering our own goalkeeper and spent 90 minutes abusing Guly, then gave Walcott and Chamberlain a standing ovation when they were playing against us for arsenal. 

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1 hour ago, The Cat said:

Cheering players from other teams? No thanks.

Even if people do this, how far down the squad list do you go? Does more minutes on the pitch translate into a bigger cheer? Sancho barely played, how much noise do you make for him as opposed to Stones? What about people in the squad who didn't play like Ramsdale? 

People on this very thread were saying they will be supporting Scotland (our biggest rival) when they play England. 
 

I for one will give every one of those who had a regular contribution a clap next season. Easily one of the most likeable squads England have every had. 
 

The players will learn from this and we’ll go into the World Cup stronger as a result. 

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22 minutes ago, DuncanRG said:

No, me neither. You're probably right but we've all heard the chants of 'you let your country down' before. I just hope they're a thing of the past. 

Doubt Rashford and co would get that treatment off the bat but if they win a contentious penalty or something, who knows? Sterling gets booed all over the place already, including at St Mary's.

No one is going to be singing "you let your country down" to this set of players for gawd's sake.

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Watched the recorded game after work last night (it was so important it was even played live on a TV station over here in NZ).  Then I heard about the racist stuff on social media about the last 3 penalty-takers.  My theory is that Southgate may have subconsciously decided to give the last 3 kicks to those three because they're coloured/black/whatever you want to call them. Imagine the reaction if they had won the game for England in times when, rightly or wrongly, black lives matter (versus everybody matters, even Aussies - I'm joking about the Aussies). 

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7 minutes ago, Jeremy said:

Watched the recorded game after work last night (it was so important it was even played live on a TV station over here in NZ).  Then I heard about the racist stuff on social media about the last 3 penalty-takers.  My theory is that Southgate may have subconsciously decided to give the last 3 kicks to those three because they're coloured/black/whatever you want to call them. Imagine the reaction if they had won the game for England in times when, rightly or wrongly, black lives matter (versus everybody matters, even Aussies - I'm joking about the Aussies). 

Jesus Christ 🤦🏻‍♂️

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22 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I can only assume Saka said he wanted to take it, but it was a very daft idea. He's a kid with the most important penalty in a generation, too much. He should have been pulled and someone with some experience should have taken it.

They'll have practiced a lot in training and know inside out who the best penalty takers are. Your proposal is that in the final, right before the shoot out, Southgate should tell Saka: "Sorry, you're only 19 so I don't think you're up to taking a penalty, even though you've proven in training that you're one of the top five pen takers on the pitch". That's going to be great for the lad's confidence, especially if he then has to go up later in the shootout. 

Then you've also got pressure on the player taking his place because they're having to step up even though they're not as skilled at pens.

19 isn't automatically too young to take a penalty. Owen or Rooney, for example, would have stuck it away (or maybe missed, as any player sometimes does). Everyone wants someone to blame for England losing but picking the best players to take the penalties is actually very sensible. They just missed.

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40 minutes ago, Jeremy said:

Watched the recorded game after work last night (it was so important it was even played live on a TV station over here in NZ).  Then I heard about the racist stuff on social media about the last 3 penalty-takers.  My theory is that Southgate may have subconsciously decided to give the last 3 kicks to those three because they're coloured/black/whatever you want to call them. Imagine the reaction if they had won the game for England in times when, rightly or wrongly, black lives matter (versus everybody matters, even Aussies - I'm joking about the Aussies). 

It's taken you all day to come up with that obvious wind up and you've blazed over the bar like Roberto Baggio. Embarrassing for you.

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Another game we had the potential to win and froze.

Sat back too deep, too early (a la Croatia semi final) and let the class of the opposition grow into the game whilst losing momentum.

Not a fan of bringing on players just to take penalties, it simply just adds to the pressure of the moment. You can't expect "cold" players to take a penalty in a major final.

And then we have the abuse, the unrelenting, disgusting abuse that sadly is unsurprising. 

But yet we still have people within society who think society and football doesn't have problems with inclusion and equality.

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2 hours ago, CB Fry said:

 

Poor lad. All three of them will be scarred but thankfully overwhelming majority are sympathetic save a few twats on here.

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14 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Okay, I think that’s enough of your ‘persona’ for this forum.

I am sure he is real but just naive or maybe I am being naive?

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1 hour ago, The Cat said:

No one is going to boo them, certainly not at St Mary's anyway. Pretty much everyone other than some bellends online and a weird Tory MP were behind them to some extent, however when they are playing against us I hope they are utter shit and we walk away with 3 points.

There's no way I'm clapping Mason fucking Mount when he walks on the pitch next season. 

I used to like the way opposing fans applauded Shilts

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1 hour ago, Turkish said:

It wouldn’t be the first time though would it. I remember being at a game where fans were ironically cheering our own goalkeeper and spent 90 minutes abusing Guly, then gave Walcott and Chamberlain a standing ovation when they were playing against us for arsenal. 

Depends how they leave. Kop applauding Ray Clemence returning with Spurs was class - yes I know scousers and all that

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10 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I have to agree. That Rashford Penalty was absolutely woeful.  

It was *almost* the perfect penalty though... He did the hard bit (sent the keeper the wrong way) and got the easy bit wrong (but only just). Fine margins...

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23 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57800431

I'm just gonna leave this here for anyone who is still labouring under the impression that there is no problem with racism in English football and that taking the knee is a pointless political gesture.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57778668

Writing on Twitter on Monday evening, Mings said: "You don't get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as 'Gesture Politics' and then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we're campaigning against, happens.".

Good on you Tyrone.

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22 hours ago, egg said:

You completely overlook nerves and occasion for which there was no evidence until it mattered. In his short time on the pitch, Saka looked as though the occasion got to him. By the time it was his turn, it was all on him. That was the evidence that mattered, not what he did in training on Tuesday. Sarnia Cherie is correct, it was stupid to mention ability or wages, they're completely irrelevant. 

I do not think you understand what I am saying because you do not completely understand the process for penalty shootouts

 

The team has to submit the five initial penalty takers prior to the shoot out Southgate chose his five after consideration to what had happened in training and the ones he chose chose did not perform as well as was required and neither did two of the Italians.

 

Rashford made a mess of his which put put pressure on the other two who's penalties were not bad misses but not good enough and I thought the Italian Goalkeeper was excellent

 

After choosing the five you cannot change the penalty takers so the die was cast not helped by having to take the last penalty

 

I know we lost the shoot out and if others had taken them we may have one but I doubt if that would have happened but of course it may have 

 

Surely Southgate did what he thought was the best with his choice of penalty takers but it is not easy taking them as other teams missed them too as did Harry Kane in the previous game.

 

On most occasions the score is not 5 5 after the initial shoot out and England have only won 2 out of 9 shootouts over twenty five years so there is need for improvement but how that can be achieved is not easy as the solution is pretty complex no doubt in the forthcoming Open Golf some of the leading golfers will make a balls up of a putt which they would normally make

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10 hours ago, Jeremy said:

Watched the recorded game after work last night (it was so important it was even played live on a TV station over here in NZ).  Then I heard about the racist stuff on social media about the last 3 penalty-takers.  My theory is that Southgate may have subconsciously decided to give the last 3 kicks to those three because they're coloured/black/whatever you want to call them. Imagine the reaction if they had won the game for England in times when, rightly or wrongly, black lives matter (versus everybody matters, even Aussies - I'm joking about the Aussies). 

:lol:

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11 hours ago, CB Fry said:

 

Marcus Rashford should never have been in the Euro squad. On his own admission he had a poor season for Man U and been bothered by injuries but for some reason he was included in the squad. He has kept the bench warm for most of the tournament only playing 80 minutes of football and to cap it all he delivered that awful penalty. It would have been better all round for him to have missed the Euros and let him concentrate on the surgery and recuperation he needs before the season starts. 

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2 hours ago, John B said:

I do not think you understand what I am saying because you do not completely understand the process for penalty shootouts

 

The team has to submit the five initial penalty takers prior to the shoot out Southgate chose his five after consideration to what had happened in training and the ones he chose chose did not perform as well as was required and neither did two of the Italians.

 

Rashford made a mess of his which put put pressure on the other two who's penalties were not bad misses but not good enough and I thought the Italian Goalkeeper was excellent

 

After choosing the five you cannot change the penalty takers so the die was cast not helped by having to take the last penalty

 

I know we lost the shoot out and if others had taken them we may have one but I doubt if that would have happened but of course it may have 

 

Surely Southgate did what he thought was the best with his choice of penalty takers but it is not easy taking them as other teams missed them too as did Harry Kane in the previous game.

 

On most occasions the score is not 5 5 after the initial shoot out and England have only won 2 out of 9 shootouts over twenty five years so there is need for improvement but how that can be achieved is not easy as the solution is pretty complex no doubt in the forthcoming Open Golf some of the leading golfers will make a balls up of a putt which they would normally make

You don't have to submit a list of penalty takers to the referee in advance. You used to, but that changed some time ago. So while Southgate will have had his own list drawn up, he had the freedom during the shootout to send up anyone he wanted from the 11 that were on the pitch at the final whistle.

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15 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

You don't have to submit a list of penalty takers to the referee in advance. You used to, but that changed some time ago. So while Southgate will have had his own list drawn up, he had the freedom during the shootout to send up anyone he wanted from the 11 that were on the pitch at the final whistle.

I'm not sure it helps the players to prepare mentally though if they don't know when they're taking a penalty and the order could change at any time

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2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57778668

Writing on Twitter on Monday evening, Mings said: "You don't get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as 'Gesture Politics' and then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we're campaigning against, happens.".

Good on you Tyrone.

The problem is now we’ve effectively created a world where you get rewarded for racism. If you’re being bullied, have self esteem issues, anger problems, lacking attention from society, want girls to see you as a bad boy or whatever, then this is just a quick fix for easy notoriety. I’m sure we all went to school with someone like this, probably more than one person.

 

Whether they like it or not, all these statements condemning it are part of the problem. Having the prime minister, Duke of Cambridge and half the England team saying they are sickened and appalled is just the grown up equivalent of the hottest girl in school saying, "Stephen Parker is such a rebel, why can’t he learn to play by the rules, like everyone else?!" And expecting it to stop.

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12 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The problem is now we’ve effectively created a world where you get rewarded for racism. If you’re being bullied, have self esteem issues, anger problems, lacking attention from society, want girls to see you as a bad boy or whatever, then this is just a quick fix for easy notoriety. I’m sure we all went to school with someone like this, probably more than one person.

 

Whether they like it or not, all these statements condemning it are part of the problem. Having the prime minister, Duke of Cambridge and half the England team saying they are sickened and appalled is just the grown up equivalent of the hottest girl in school saying, "Stephen Parker is such a rebel, why can’t he learn to play by the rules, like everyone else?!" And expecting it to stop.

So we should all just be quiet about racism and it will go away?

You might provoke some attention-seeking numpties in the short term but the only way you change people's attitudes in the long term is to speak out and set a clear example

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20 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The problem is now we’ve effectively created a world where you get rewarded for racism. If you’re being bullied, have self esteem issues, anger problems, lacking attention from society, want girls to see you as a bad boy or whatever, then this is just a quick fix for easy notoriety. I’m sure we all went to school with someone like this, probably more than one person.

 

Whether they like it or not, all these statements condemning it are part of the problem. Having the prime minister, Duke of Cambridge and half the England team saying they are sickened and appalled is just the grown up equivalent of the hottest girl in school saying, "Stephen Parker is such a rebel, why can’t he learn to play by the rules, like everyone else?!" And expecting it to stop.

Some idiots will do it whatever but it doesn’t help with dog whistle politics trying to stir up a culture war just to try and get votes from knuckle draggers.

When the PM and other politicians say it’s OK, and actually encourage people to boo anti-racism gestures it just empowers these morons and makes them think their views are acceptable.

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14 hours ago, DuncanRG said:

Just came here to say that we should cheer the England players when their names are called at St Mary's next season. I'll be so bummed if I hear 'you let your country down', as fans have sung at past England players.

So will they, which is the point. 

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3 hours ago, John B said:

I do not think you understand what I am saying because you do not completely understand the process for penalty shootouts

 

The team has to submit the five initial penalty takers prior to the shoot out Southgate chose his five after consideration to what had happened in training and the ones he chose chose did not perform as well as was required and neither did two of the Italians.

 

Rashford made a mess of his which put put pressure on the other two who's penalties were not bad misses but not good enough and I thought the Italian Goalkeeper was excellent

 

After choosing the five you cannot change the penalty takers so the die was cast not helped by having to take the last penalty

 

I know we lost the shoot out and if others had taken them we may have one but I doubt if that would have happened but of course it may have 

 

Surely Southgate did what he thought was the best with his choice of penalty takers but it is not easy taking them as other teams missed them too as did Harry Kane in the previous game.

 

On most occasions the score is not 5 5 after the initial shoot out and England have only won 2 out of 9 shootouts over twenty five years so there is need for improvement but how that can be achieved is not easy as the solution is pretty complex no doubt in the forthcoming Open Golf some of the leading golfers will make a balls up of a putt which they would normally make

Er, no it doesn’t.

Er, yes you can.

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1 hour ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

So we should all just be quiet about racism and it will go away?

You might provoke some attention-seeking numpties in the short term but the only way you change people's attitudes in the long term is to speak out and set a clear example

Essentially yes. I don’t mean ignore it completely, by all means prosecute anyone you’re able to identify but all these statements saying, "oh it’s terrible and it’s got to stop," are basically feeding the flames. 
 

When you say changing peoples attitudes in the long term, who exactly are you talking about? How many people actually racial abused those players? If it’s 30 out of 30 million who watched the game, then we’re all making headlines out of literally one in a million stuff. Even then, you’re assuming all those accounts are A - English B - separate individuals. Half of them could be Middle Eatern, East European, Chinese, Scottish or anything you like.

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7 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Essentially yes. I don’t mean ignore it completely, by all means prosecute anyone you’re able to identify but all these statements saying, "oh it’s terrible and it’s got to stop," are basically feeding the flames. 
 

When you say changing peoples attitudes in the long term, who exactly are you talking about? How many people actually racial abused those players? If it’s 30 out of 30 million who watched the game, then we’re all making headlines out of literally one in a million stuff. Even then, you’re assuming all those accounts are A - English B - separate individuals. Half of them could be Middle Eatern, East European, Chinese, Scottish or anything you like.

What a load of nonsense. 

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10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Essentially yes. I don’t mean ignore it completely, by all means prosecute anyone you’re able to identify but all these statements saying, "oh it’s terrible and it’s got to stop," are basically feeding the flames. 
 

When you say changing peoples attitudes in the long term, who exactly are you talking about? How many people actually racial abused those players? If it’s 30 out of 30 million who watched the game, then we’re all making headlines out of literally one in a million stuff. Even then, you’re assuming all those accounts are A - English B - separate individuals. Half of them could be Middle Eatern, East European, Chinese, Scottish or anything you like.

Bit of an own goal. May qualify for one of your deletions!   The fanning of the flames has been done by several prominent politicians and media outlets who haven't said it's terrible and haven't said it has to stop.

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Whilst it may seem counter-intuitive on the surface, there's logic in what Lighthouse is saying. The people that perpetrate racism crave the notoriety, ergo they are getting people to react in exactly the way they want them to. Whilst it's obviously on a different scale and not a like-for-like, its a similar mentality with the WUMs/Trolls on here.... they want people to bite and people duly oblige.... i.e.  the reaction they crave is given to them on a plate. I often find it best to ignore people that don't want to be ignored.

 

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23 minutes ago, supersonic said:

What a load of nonsense. 

So why has it not worked then? For the last year, the message couldn’t have been shouted more loudly and frequently. We had the black squares on Instagram, people tweeting #icantbreath, ‘Black Lives Matter’ printed on the back of every Premier League shirt for a month, every player in every club taking the knee before every game for more than a whole season, likewise with cricket matches, F1 and countless other sports, we’ve had no more racism adverts on TV in the adverts for all major sporting fixtures, huge banners across the empty seats in stadia, marches through all major cities, statues ripped down, films and TV shows from 50 years ago censored and edited, comedians apologising for jokes made in good humour 20 years ago, cricketers banned for something they said a decade ago as a teenager.

 

We’ve had all of that and what has it achieved?

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3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

So why has it not worked then? For the last year, the message couldn’t have been shouted more loudly and frequently. We had the black squares on Instagram, people tweeting #icantbreath, ‘Black Lives Matter’ printed on the back of every Premier League shirt for a month, every player in every club taking the knee before every game for more than a whole season, likewise with cricket matches, F1 and countless other sports, we’ve had no more racism adverts on TV in the adverts for all major sporting fixtures, huge banners across the empty seats in stadia, marches through all major cities, statues ripped down, films and TV shows from 50 years ago censored and edited, comedians apologising for jokes made in good humour 20 years ago, cricketers banned for something they said a decade ago as a teenager.

 

We’ve had all of that and what has it achieved?

Probably more than if it was just ignored/swept under the carpet.

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11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

So why has it not worked then? For the last year, the message couldn’t have been shouted more loudly and frequently. We had the black squares on Instagram, people tweeting #icantbreath, ‘Black Lives Matter’ printed on the back of every Premier League shirt for a month, every player in every club taking the knee before every game for more than a whole season, likewise with cricket matches, F1 and countless other sports, we’ve had no more racism adverts on TV in the adverts for all major sporting fixtures, huge banners across the empty seats in stadia, marches through all major cities, statues ripped down, films and TV shows from 50 years ago censored and edited, comedians apologising for jokes made in good humour 20 years ago, cricketers banned for something they said a decade ago as a teenager.

 

We’ve had all of that and what has it achieved?

We've achieved far more in the past 18 months than we have done at any previous time, it's working. The amount of people now calling out Racist behaviour is increasing, it won't stop instantly.

Your suggestion, whilst I understand the logic you are trying to use, is unhelpful. Racism is far deeper than the obvious stuff we see on Instagram, a vast majority of it is potentially subconscious, if people aren't educated as to what is right/wrong, how are they going to learn?

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15 hours ago, The Cat said:

No one is going to boo them, certainly not at St Mary's anyway. Pretty much everyone other than some bellends online and a weird Tory MP were behind them to some extent

You posted you had little interest in the national team. Are you the Tory MP or a bell-end? 

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2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

So why has it not worked then? For the last year, the message couldn’t have been shouted more loudly and frequently. We had the black squares on Instagram, people tweeting #icantbreath, ‘Black Lives Matter’ printed on the back of every Premier League shirt for a month, every player in every club taking the knee before every game for more than a whole season, likewise with cricket matches, F1 and countless other sports, we’ve had no more racism adverts on TV in the adverts for all major sporting fixtures, huge banners across the empty seats in stadia, marches through all major cities, statues ripped down, films and TV shows from 50 years ago censored and edited, comedians apologising for jokes made in good humour 20 years ago, cricketers banned for something they said a decade ago as a teenager.

 

We’ve had all of that and what has it achieved?

I don’t think it’s about changing anyone’s mind, or at least not everyones, but more about giving future generations a choice and a chance to do better.

People growing up with racist people in the past would grow up in a near vacuum, where the only opinion they heard would be unopposed and they’d have formed a mindset like that before they ever had a chance to figure it out themselves. It tended to be ignored rather than actively opposed.

Now, at every turn people can see people with influence fighting back against it. That’s the reason ‘empty’ gestures like taking the knee should continue, because the opposing viewpoint needs to be there as constantly as the racists’.

I think it’s actually making a difference. Look at the response to the Rashford mural. Would the vandalism have even been reported a few years ago? It certainly wouldn’t have been a main news item, and hundreds of people have come out and done something to counter it, instead of just ignoring it.

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11 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

I think it’s actually making a difference. Look at the response to the Rashford mural. Would the vandalism have even been reported a few years ago? It certainly wouldn’t have been a main news item, and hundreds of people have come out and done something to counter it, instead of just ignoring it.

If you asked a racist what they thought of the response to the Rashford mural graffiti, would they be delighted or unhappy with the furore...?

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12 minutes ago, supersonic said:

We've achieved far more in the past 18 months than we have done at any previous time, it's working. The amount of people now calling out Racist behaviour is increasing, it won't stop instantly.

Your suggestion, whilst I understand the logic you are trying to use, is unhelpful. Racism is far deeper than the obvious stuff we see on Instagram, a vast majority of it is potentially subconscious, if people aren't educated as to what is right/wrong, how are they going to learn?

That's the crux of the matter for me. It's undeniable that more people are calling it out more but I fundamentally don't believe that's helping the situation. As other have said, it's the same reason people troll internet forums; they want to be called out, they want to upset people, we are unintentionally, actively encouraging it.

As a balance between changing attitudes and fueling some people's desire for negative attention, I think we've tipped the scales the wrong way, in favour of the latter. As a society, we know racism is wrong in the same way that we have known stealing and murder are wrong, since the days before Biblical testament. They will always be a small factor in society and, as with stealing and murder, I think we've reached the point in Britain where 'getting the message out' has achieved all it can. 

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6 minutes ago, trousers said:

If you asked a racist what they thought of the response to the Rashford mural graffiti, would they be delighted or unhappy with the furore...?

Like I said, you’re never going to change everyone’s opinion. None of all of this is aimed at changing their mind, it’s being done to oppose them.

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2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

That's the crux of the matter for me. It's undeniable that more people are calling it out more but I fundamentally don't believe that's helping the situation. As other have said, it's the same reason people troll internet forums; they want to be called out, they want to upset people, we are unintentionally, actively encouraging it.

As a balance between changing attitudes and fueling some people's desire for negative attention, I think we've tipped the scales the wrong way, in favour of the latter. As a society, we know racism is wrong in the same way that we have known stealing and murder are wrong, since the days before Biblical testament. They will always be a small factor in society and, as with stealing and murder, I think we've reached the point in Britain where 'getting the message out' has achieved all it can. 

So are you saying we should stop getting the message out?

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