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Tino Livramento


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30 minutes ago, TWar said:

I'm saying you not understanding the importance of an attacking midfielder being good against the ball is bad, but you not being able to understand the importance of a right back being good against the ball is incomprehensibly stupid. Hope this helps. 

Can anyone enlighten the non football manager / fifa players / Althetic readers / non Football hipsters, what against the ball actually means…. 

Is it a hipster way of saying pressing, ‘reading the game’ Or being good at 1 - 1 defending? 

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5 minutes ago, Dman said:

Can anyone enlighten the non football manager / fifa players / Althetic readers / non Football hipsters, what against the ball actually means…. 

Is it a hipster way of saying pressing, ‘reading the game’ Or being good at 1 - 1 defending? 

Against the ball = defending/pressing/marking/basically anything useful when the opponent is in possession

With the ball = attacking/passing/dribbling/shooting/basically anything useful when you are in possession. 

To be good against the ball is to be good at winning the ball back and aiding in your team winning the ball back (ideally in good positions). To be good with the ball is to score goals or to do things that will aid your team in scoring goals. 

Against the ball is a modern way of grouping all activities which might be beneficial when the opponent has the ball, and is used heavily (almost every other sentence it seems) by our manager and seems to be passing on to the players so might want to get used to its usage. 

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2 minutes ago, TWar said:

Against the ball = defending/pressing/marking/basically anything useful when the opponent is in possession

With the ball = attacking/passing/dribbling/shooting/basically anything useful when you are in possession. 

To be good against the ball is to be good at winning the ball back and aiding in your team winning the ball back. To be good with the ball is to score goals or to do things that will aid your team in scoring goals. 

So in simple terms, without all the fancy fluff, Tino is a good solid right back who’s also pretty decent going forward. 

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13 minutes ago, Dman said:

So in simple terms, without all the fancy fluff, Tino is a good solid right back who’s also pretty decent going forward. 

He's good at 1v1 defending, winning the ball back, and pressing when needed as well as dribbling and passing, yes. Also good/decent might be an understatement, he is top 2 or 3 in the league for defenders at multiple things, I'd say excellent (or maybe insane 😉) is more apt. 

"Against the ball" isn't fluff, it's actually a lot quicker to say than listing all the ways he is good at pressing and defending as well as cutting of channels etc. It's a modern term, but it's one our manager uses and club uses so worth learning. Along with things like 10s and 6s, automisms, pressing triggers etc. it'll improve your ability to understand how we play if you can understand the terms our manager uses, as he's the one that sets us up after all. 

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2 hours ago, Dman said:

Can anyone enlighten the non football manager / fifa players / Althetic readers / non Football hipsters, what against the ball actually means…. 

Is it a hipster way of saying pressing, ‘reading the game’ Or being good at 1 - 1 defending? 

On the basis it comes from the FA's coaching programme back when they launched the England DNA in 2014 I wouldn't call it hipster

Basically it  splits out three stages of play  1) In possession; 2) Out of possession; and 3) Transition.  Within that the technical skills are set out.  Against the ball is just another way of saying out of possession with the associated phases of:

- Pressing
- Delay, deny, dictate
- Emergency defending

All the  FA coaching courses are built around this.

 

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3 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

I prefer 'with out the ball', unless that now means something else. It's your counter clockwise to your anti clockwise.

I'm sure that's fine.  I think this is more a debate between people who understand modern coaching terminology and those who pay for their beers in groats. 

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7 hours ago, Verbal said:

I'm sure that's fine.  I think this is more a debate between people who understand modern coaching terminology and those who pay for their beers in groats. 

Some might say it’s a debate between people who’ve actually played the game and others who’ve read a few blogs and played football manager but think they’re geniuses. Quite amusing that some old boy who appears to have never kicked a ball in his life who has to sneak around behind his wife’s cold glare after promising never to to post on here is trying to mock people talking about football 😂 

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12 hours ago, Turkish said:

Some might say it’s a debate between people who’ve actually played the game and others who’ve read a few blogs and played football manager but think they’re geniuses. Quite amusing that some old boy who appears to have never kicked a ball in his life who has to sneak around behind his wife’s cold glare after promising never to to post on here is trying to mock people talking about football 😂 

Not sure why you think playing football and staying up to date with it's modern terminology are mutually exclusive. Professional footballers and managers seem to be managing to use pretty simple terms ok.

Reminds me of those comics you see occasionally where a young person doesn't know how to use a book, desperately "clicking" one it, or "swiping" wondering why the page doesn't turn. Always seemed odd to me as basically all young people know how to operate a book. At one point someone pointed out "older, technologically illiterate people don't know how to use a computer and for the sake of pride pretend it is a two way street and something they do easily like reading a book they claim young people can't do". I think that's it, it is easier to think that since you can't do one thing, someone else must be deficient in something you can do. But it's not the case, normally, some people are just smarter than you.

One such comic for context:

1p9bvj7zaxe71.jpg?width=615&auto=webp&s=4265c78ba699d6011fe3958eedbf14bd7a1b52aa

Edited by TWar
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16 minutes ago, TWar said:

Not sure why you think playing football and staying up to date with it's modern terminology are mutually exclusive. Professional footballers and managers seem to be managing to use pretty simple terms ok.

Reminds me of those comics you see occasionally where a young person doesn't know how to use a book, desperately "clicking" one it, or "swiping" wondering why the page doesn't turn. Always seemed odd to me as basically all young people know how to operate a book. At one point someone pointed out "older, technologically illiterate people don't know how to use a computer and for the sake of pride pretend it is a two way street and something they do easily like reading a book they claim young people can't do". I think that's it, it is easier to think that since you can't do one thing, someone else must be deficient in something you can do. But it's not the case, normally, some people are just smarter than you.

One such comic for context:

1p9bvj7zaxe71.jpg?width=615&auto=webp&s=4265c78ba699d6011fe3958eedbf14bd7a1b52aa

It's a bit like being told how to drive by someone who has never been in a car in their life. Hope that helps. 

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45 minutes ago, TWar said:

The issue is, how do you know those who know modern coaching terminology have less actual football experience than you? Is what I'm getting at. It just feels like you assume it because otherwise they would be both more knowledgeable about the modern game and have more experience than you, and then where would you be?

It's like when you assume people who know the stats don't also watch the games? Why would you think that?

It's pretty obvious mate.

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52 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It's pretty obvious mate.

This is what I mean, you assume you have more playing experience than others because otherwise they would both have played as much as you and also know a lot more than you. Something that I imagine is often the case.

The "my argument is more valid regardless of how ill-informed it is and how little I know about modern football because I was almost semi-pro in the mid 80s and I baselessly assume you have never kicked a ball in your life" argument is a pretty bad, and also pretty embarrassing one.

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1 hour ago, Turkish said:

It's pretty obvious mate.

It is pretty obvious your IQ is not up to others who post. They are far more sensible in their logic and understanding of the game.  I am happy you got to play the beautiful game  to a decent level  from what you say. That I respect! But your years of trying to dominate a topic, derailing with petty arguments, never admitted wrong doing is what destroys the good you have to contribute to the forum.

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3 hours ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

It is pretty obvious your IQ is not up to others who post. They are far more sensible in their logic and understanding of the game.  I am happy you got to play the beautiful game  to a decent level  from what you say. That I respect! But your years of trying to dominate a topic, derailing with petty arguments, never admitted wrong doing is what destroys the good you have to contribute to the forum.

Oh look another new poster who knows what i've been posting on here for years :lol: 

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On 20/09/2021 at 17:32, TWar said:

Doesn't stop us from saying no though.

Either way, bidding starts at £40m. Also it's not too reputable a source so not too worried just yet.

Still, nice showing of his quality he is already being touted to a move to united after 5 games, quite a good signing I'd say 😉

Apparently confirmed as £50m and cannot be invoked until at least Summer 2023 (as I thought, these buyback clauses have a 2 year grace period. We also pay nothing until 2022. Seems like a very good deal (for us). Reported by InsideFutbol with credit to The Athletic. 

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On 24/09/2021 at 11:02, Totton Saint said:

I am glad the term transitioning had a short life and 'winning the ball' returned

My favourite word is "automatisms", Ralph's early excessive use of it makes everyone sound really intelligent in the pub!

Deep down though you just know no one has a fucking clue but it adds bravado to any sentence

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48 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Apparently confirmed as £50m and cannot be invoked until at least Summer 2023 (as I thought, these buyback clauses have a 2 year grace period. We also pay nothing until 2022. Seems like a very good deal (for us). Reported by InsideFutbol with credit to The Athletic. 

Also if Chelsea do buy him back it’ll only cost them £38m due to a sell on clause of any profit

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55 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Apparently confirmed as £50m and cannot be invoked until at least Summer 2023 (as I thought, these buyback clauses have a 2 year grace period. We also pay nothing until 2022. Seems like a very good deal (for us). Reported by InsideFutbol with credit to The Athletic. 

Hadn't seen that, cheers. That's a cracking bit of business. 

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3 hours ago, Turkish said:

Also if Chelsea do buy him back it’ll only cost them £38m due to a sell on clause of any profit

We'll get £38M regardless of which club buys him for £50M as rest will go to Chelsea for sell on clause (over £5M), and presumably nothing stopping us selling him to any club for any amount prior to buy back clause kicking in?

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12 hours ago, egg said:

Hadn't seen that, cheers. That's a cracking bit of business. 

I Also saw that payments on the £5m don’t kick in until next season. 
 

As you say, great business. It does beg the question of why we couldn’t rustle up a little bit more for a half decent CB though. 

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8 minutes ago, trousers said:

I can’t believe we’ve not even tried playing him further forward, especially given the shower of shit our wingers / attacking midfielders currently are and KWP being one of, if not our best player. 

It might not work, it might be great. Unless you try it you’ll never know. However, imo it can’t be any worse than current. 

Actually, I can believe it. Once Ralph gets an idea he’s far to stubborn to change it. 

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8 minutes ago, Dman said:

I can’t believe we’ve not even tried playing him further forward, especially given the shower of shit our wingers / attacking midfielders currently are and KWP being one of, if not our best player. 

It might not work, it might be great. Unless you try it you’ll never know. However, imo it can’t be any worse than current. 

Actually, I can believe it. Once Ralph gets an idea he’s far to stubborn to change it. 

The lad is basically another Gareth Bale whereby its obvious he has far more about him than just playing full back. I bet he doesnt play right back for England U21s.

But as you say Ralph is stubborn so we can forget anything other than right back for Tino for the forseeable future. 

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Like some views on here!

I think Ralph has proved he is willing to try new things this season, for me it’s the main reason I’d keep him until after the next run of games which on paper we should be winning, as he has changed formation numerous times in games and subs have been pretty good. 

I agree I’d move Tino forward, try it for some games, and maybe he will, or maybe he has reasons to keep him at RB. 

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It does seem a tad bizarre that rather than try Tino further up field, and thus allowing KWP to play in his natural position and Perraud to play in his, Ralph seems intent on perpetuating an issue that doesn't actually exist. Bit of a head scratcher.

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16 minutes ago, Dman said:

I can’t believe we’ve not even tried playing him further forward, especially given the shower of shit our wingers / attacking midfielders currently are and KWP being one of, if not our best player. 

It might not work, it might be great. Unless you try it you’ll never know. However, imo it can’t be any worse than current. 

Actually, I can believe it. Once Ralph gets an idea he’s far to stubborn to change it. 

Perhaps he has tried it in training but prefers him at right back? Given the changes in the team so far this season I wouldn’t say that he was being stubborn. He likes attacking full backs and both KWP and TL play high up the pitch.

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I agree that Tino could play anywhere and be better than most that we currently play in midfield. With JWP out surely this is the moment to play him in midfield with Romeo, Armstrong + one other. Perraud and KWP in their natural positions. Is that too obvious?

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33 minutes ago, trousers said:

It does seem a tad bizarre that rather than try Tino further up field, and thus allowing KWP to play in his natural position and Perraud to play in his, Ralph seems intent on perpetuating an issue that doesn't actually exist. Bit of a head scratcher.

I don't find it bizarre at all.  He's a right back playing right back. If you put him out of position, it's just the same as playing KWP out of position.  Perhaps he thinks he's better from RB rather than a "10". Also, KWP has played LB quite a lot in his career.  I understand why fans would like to see him further forward, but I don't see it a problem that he isn't, and certainly don't find it bizarre.

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As capable as I’m sure Livramento would be further forward I still really don’t see it fixing our issues at the moment. We already spend so much time going side-to-side in front of the oppositions defence with no penetration, playing two right-backs would probably just make that worse.

And when’s the last time Adams or Armstrong have scored a header? Maybe Broja could solve that problem?

Also I think Livramento is stronger defensively than KWP.

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5 minutes ago, BallBoy said:

I agree that Tino could play anywhere and be better than most that we currently play in midfield. With JWP out surely this is the moment to play him in midfield with Romeo, Armstrong + one other. Perraud and KWP in their natural positions. Is that too obvious?

for me, yes 😂

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4 minutes ago, BallBoy said:

I agree that Tino could play anywhere and be better than most that we currently play in midfield. With JWP out surely this is the moment to play him in midfield with Romeo, Armstrong + one other. Perraud and KWP in their natural positions. Is that too obvious?

Good call - Diallo the one other for me....keen to see him get at least a three game run alongside Romeu.

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20 minutes ago, BallBoy said:

I agree that Tino could play anywhere and be better than most that we currently play in midfield. With JWP out surely this is the moment to play him in midfield with Romeo, Armstrong + one other. Perraud and KWP in their natural positions. Is that too obvious?

Too obvious to move our best right back into a position he has never played before? I'd say it's probably not an obvious thing to do at all.

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16 minutes ago, Nemi said:

As capable as I’m sure Livramento would be further forward I still really don’t see it fixing our issues at the moment. We already spend so much time going side-to-side in front of the oppositions defence with no penetration, playing two right-backs would probably just make that worse.

And when’s the last time Adams or Armstrong have scored a header? Maybe Broja could solve that problem?

Also I think Livramento is stronger defensively than KWP.

He played multiple times for Chelsea academy further forward. Not sure you can pigeon hole him into one position when he has the ability to play in more advanced roles. Our issue is that we look toothless so maybe sacrificing his defensive attributes is worthwhile.  Surely has to be worth a few games 

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10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Too obvious to move our best right back into a position he has never played before? I'd say it's probably not an obvious thing to do at all.

Livramento might end up being the best right back in the UK one day, but at present KWP is a high quality RB; less effective at LB, while Perraud is a specialist LB who needs the chance to prove himself.    Livramento gives every indication he could handle a wide attacking role, and it's worth seeing if the dominoes can fall into place.

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1 minute ago, austsaint said:

Livramento might end up being the best right back in the UK one day, but at present KWP is a high quality RB; less effective at LB, while Perraud is a specialist LB who needs the chance to prove himself.    Livramento gives every indication he could handle a wide attacking role, and it's worth seeing if the dominoes can fall into place.

But he's being suggested for a central midfield role. It seems to be at the moment the answer is Liveramento, what is the question?

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