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England/Hungary/Racism Discussion (Split)


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3 hours ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Yeah, the not taking the knee thing/racists is just ridiculous in think, doesn’t need to be synonymous, and people think different things for loads of different reasons.

I’m not so much for taking the knee, but doesn’t bother me if people want to.

But...but...but...there are some utter dimbulbs out there, and at least one and a half on here, who'll tell you the players are Marxists.  As if Raheem Sterling is demanding the socialisation of the means of capitalist production and the overthrow of the bourgeoisie. 

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37 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If there was clear racist chanting then I support the players in them doing whatever they think is necessary including walking off. They shouldn't have to put up with that as part of the job description no matter what they get paid. The whole episode if true though does highlight the very real differences between football in parts of Eastern Europe and elsewhere and the UK though. You simply don't get this sort of thing in the UK anymore thankfully so for Southgate and some on here to suggest that any issues we have are in some way comparable is absurd. 

I think the comparisons come from the abuse from social media towards some black players, which is unacceptable. 

It still highlights we have issues in this country, whilst not being as bad as some nations still should be happening. 

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23 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

I think the comparisons come from the abuse from social media towards some black players, which is unacceptable. 

It still highlights we have issues in this country, whilst not being as bad as some nations still should be happening. 

We have an issue with social media making it easy for anyone to send abuse to anyone else anonymously from anywhere in the world. It's not a football problen or a problem of racism. Every single day thousands and thousands of people receive all manner of vile abuse for any number of reasons. It's not confined to black people and its not confined to footballers. Some of the vile abuse that someone like Nigel Farage receives on a daily basis for example regardless of what you think of him as a person is completely unacceptable. Issues on social media should not be conflated with issues of real world racism and racist abuse in football stadia which is something very different. 

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2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

We have an issue with social media making it easy for anyone to send abuse to anyone else anonymously from anywhere in the world. It's not a football problen or a problem of racism. Every single day thousands and thousands of people receive all manner of vile abuse for any number of reasons. It's not confined to black people and its not confined to footballers. Some of the vile abuse that someone like Nigel Farage receives on a daily basis for example regardless of what you think of him as a person is completely unacceptable. Issues on social media should not be conflated with issues of real world racism and racist abuse in football stadia which is something very different. 

I don’t disagree this is a wider issue, but people on here later discuss this as it is a football forum. 

I’m also not sure it will every truly disappear, from any walk off life. 

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17 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

I don’t disagree this is a wider issue, but people on here later discuss this as it is a football forum. 

I’m also not sure it will every truly disappear, from any walk off life. 

No of course it won't. The sooner people accept the fact that abuse on twitter is a fact of life and that you just need to accept it if you want social media to exist the better. It's either that or you don't have social media because there isn't really an alternative. Of course anyone can discuss abuse of footballers on social media but let's not pretend that it's some sort of football problem rather than an issue for anyone on social media. Football does not have any more of a problem with racism on social media than anyone or anything else. 

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2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

If there was clear racist chanting then I support the players in them doing whatever they think is necessary including walking off. They shouldn't have to put up with that as part of the job description no matter what they get paid. The whole episode if true though does highlight the very real differences between football in parts of Eastern Europe and elsewhere and the UK though. You simply don't get this sort of thing in the UK anymore thankfully so for Southgate and some on here to suggest that any issues we have are in some way comparable is absurd. 

Agree 100% and I will not get involved with even trying to argue a point on here. This is where I compare in the 70’s and 80’s when there were monkey noises in the crowd and people throwing banana, to now when people are just booing the gesture of taking the knee, and can only take the positives from this that we have come a long way. 
 

I cannot understand why you would boo the gesture unless you are racist. Why should it bother you that much, oh that’s right ‘keep politics out of football’ ok then. 
 

There is no place in football and no place in society for racism (these of course are linked). 

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2 hours ago, Billy the Kidd said:

I think the comparisons come from the abuse from social media towards some black players, which is unacceptable. 

It still highlights we have issues in this country, whilst not being as bad as some nations still should be happening. 

Yes it is still there. The booing is a way of showing this, without shouting racist slurs. ‘but not racist’ just don’t like politics in football. 

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1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

No of course it won't. The sooner people accept the fact that abuse on twitter is a fact of life and that you just need to accept it if you want social media to exist the better. It's either that or you don't have social media because there isn't really an alternative. Of course anyone can discuss abuse of footballers on social media but let's not pretend that it's some sort of football problem rather than an issue for anyone on social media. Football does not have any more of a problem with racism on social media than anyone or anything else. 

This. It is 100% a society problem. Racism, sexism, homophobia… and discrimination. It was also never be completely eradicated, but we need to voice that it is not acceptable as in the past it has either been laughed about or people have accepted and that it was the ‘norm’ and joined in with the bullying/insults. All we can do is keep educating our young that it is just not acceptable behaviour. Times will continue to change slowly over a period of time. 

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8 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

Agree 100% and I will not get involved with even trying to argue a point on here. This is where I compare in the 70’s and 80’s when there were monkey noises in the crowd and people throwing banana, to now when people are just booing the gesture of taking the knee, and can only take the positives from this that we have come a long way. 
 

I cannot understand why you would boo the gesture unless you are racist. Why should it bother you that much, oh that’s right ‘keep politics out of football’ ok then. 
 

There is no place in football and no place in society for racism (these of course are linked). 

I think you'll just have to accept that some people object to the gesture, dislike it and some express their opposition to it by booing. I don't personally think booing actually makes anything better but I certainly support the right of those who've bought a ticket to boo and I wouldn't brand everyone who boos the gesture as racist for doing so. That's a bit like calling all Hungarian football fans racist because there were reportedly some racist monkey chants at yesterday's game. 

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10 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

This. It is 100% a society problem. Racism, sexism, homophobia… and discrimination. It was also never be completely eradicated, but we need to voice that it is not acceptable as in the past it has either been laughed about or people have accepted and that it was the ‘norm’ and joined in with the bullying/insults. All we can do is keep educating our young that it is just not acceptable behaviour. Times will continue to change slowly over a period of time. 

Well all of those things exist in society sure but I think it suits the agendas of some people and their politics to exagerrate the extent to which these proliferate in society. Like with hate crimes for example where annual figures show record levels of hate crime being reported and then we find out that actually its because the police have changed the definition of what a hate crime is and have been trained that it isn't acceptable for hate crime to go down. 

So yes homophobia, sexism, racism and m discrimination all exist in the UK but in reality it's a minority of incidences, the country is getting more tolerant and accepting over time and we should celebrate being one of the most tolerant and accepting nations on the planet. Deal with those idiots who are overtly racist, and discriminatory of course but let's not pretend that we live in a systemically and irredeemebly racist, homophobic and evil society because that doesn't help anyone. 

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4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think you'll just have to accept that some people object to the gesture, dislike it and some express their opposition to it by booing. I don't personally think booing actually makes anything better but I certainly support the right of those who've bought a ticket to boo and I wouldn't brand everyone who boos the gesture as racist for doing so. That's a bit like calling all Hungarian football fans racist because there were reportedly some racist monkey chants at yesterday's game. 

Ok yes, not all, but I just cannot understand why people would boo. It is 5 seconds, just carry on with what you are doing. Sometimes I miss it happening. I don’t really get booing anything, it’s not a panto! 

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Just now, Dr Who? said:

Ok yes, not all, but I just cannot understand why people would boo. It is 5 seconds, just carry on with what you are doing. Sometimes I miss it happening. I don’t really get booing anything, it’s not a panto! 

The flip side of that is it's 5 seconds of expressing your vocal opposition to the gesture before getting on with the game and supporting your team. It's not like it's a particularly onerous task to boo. 

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1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Well all of those things exist in society sure but I think it suits the agendas of some people and their politics to exagerrate the extent to which these proliferate in society. Like with hate crimes for example where annual figures show record levels of hate crime being reported and then we find out that actually its because the police have changed the definition of what a hate crime is and have been trained that it isn't acceptable for hate crime to go down. 

So yes homophobia, sexism, racism and m discrimination all exist in the UK but in reality it's a minority of incidences, the country is getting more tolerant and accepting over time and we should celebrate being one of the most tolerant and accepting nations on the planet. 

I agree. Like I said if all we have to worry about is anti anti racism then it’s not that bad. Ok then you have Twitter as some fans completely overstepped the mark because we lost the final and they desperately looked for scapegoats. 

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4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The flip side of that is it's 5 seconds of expressing your vocal opposition to the gesture before getting on with the game and supporting your team. It's not like it's a particularly onerous task to boo. 

I just don’t understand why people feel that strongly about the gesture that they feel they have to boo. But they do and they will continue to, as it is a gesture that will continue now for a long time because of this. 

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Just now, Dr Who? said:

I agree. Like I said if all we have to worry about is anti anti racism then it’s not that bad. Ok then you have Twitter as some fans completely overstepped the mark because we lost the final and they desperately looked for scapegoats. 

The sad fact is that people will express frustration on social media towards high profile targets normally and out of tens of thousands of replies some of those people will be abusive and some of those racist, sexist, homophobic etc etc. The elephant in the room is that for all the good that social media can do, this is the bad and an inevitable consequence of allowing this sort of medium to exist in this format. Changing these platforms is unworkable due to their global nature and how they work so the general public and those in charge need to either accept social media for what it is and learn to block, ignore and track abusive comments without putting every comment on the front of a newspaper or they need to ban social media. 

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6 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

I just don’t understand why people feel that strongly about the gesture that they feel they have to boo. But they do and they will continue to, as it is a gesture that will continue now for a long time because of this. 

A boo doesn't really cost anything and I'm not sure it's really a sign of a real strength of feeling, it's more just a quick and easy response from some of those at the game to something they dislike. I doubt many think too deeply into it they just don't like the knee due to its previous associations whether the football authorities want to admit them or not. 

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8 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

This. It is 100% a society problem. Racism, sexism, homophobia… and discrimination. It was also never be completely eradicated, but we need to voice that it is not acceptable as in the past it has either been laughed about or people have accepted and that it was the ‘norm’ and joined in with the bullying/insults. All we can do is keep educating our young that it is just not acceptable behaviour. Times will continue to change slowly over a period of time. 

Nail on head there….

All walks of life are bullied and abused this poor behaviour is not restricted to race or colour.

I am sick and tired of footballers seeking attention for societies issues. These issues are not restricted to poor       Footballers who have made their point taking the knee long enough now and are being more provocative than harmonising.

it is clear that taking the knee in Hungary would provoke a reaction and  some common sense should have prevailed unless this was purely meant to provoke in which case it was the wrong decision to go ahead with the gesture anyway.

Yes racism is wrong but taking the knee has run its course.

 

 

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1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

A boo doesn't really cost anything and I'm not sure it's really a sign of a real strength of feeling, it's more just a quick and easy response from some of those at the game to something they dislike. I doubt many think too deeply into it they just don't like the booing due to its previous associations whether the football authorities want to admit them or not. 

Overall I think we can agree that as a country have come a long way since the 70’s, 80’s and even more recently on all these matters. The media now is so under the microscope and instant that things seem much worse than they actually are. You drill down and compare to yesteryear and, well there is no comparison. It does not mean that we do not go on educating and try and continue trying to improve things even further. 

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4 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

I agree. Like I said if all we have to worry about is anti anti racism then it’s not that bad. Ok then you have Twitter as some fans completely overstepped the mark because we lost the final and they desperately looked for scapegoats. 

I don’t think anyone is anti racism. What people are fed up with is the fact that Britain in particular is probably the least racist it’s ever been yet not a day goes by when there isn’t some headline or some loon screaming racism about something. People lap it up and jump on the bandwagon with everyone competing with each other to be the most outraged by it all. Does racism exist, yes. Should it exist, no. But do we need it rammed down our throats day in day out that in a country of 60m people everyone and everything isn’t as perfect as some ideology would like it to be? I genuinely cannot remember in real life someone making a racist comment in my presence but this moral outrage is doing more harm than good. 

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8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I don’t think anyone is anti racism. What people are fed up with is the fact that Britain in particular is probably the least racist it’s ever been yet not a day goes by when there isn’t some headline or some loon screaming racism about something. People lap it up and jump on the bandwagon with everyone competing with each other to be the most outraged by it all. Does racism exist, yes. Should it exist, no. But do we need it rammed down our throats day in day out that in a country of 60m people everyone and everything isn’t as perfect as some ideology would like it to be? I genuinely cannot remember in real life someone making a racist comment in my presence but this moral outrage is doing more harm than good. 

I do agree with most of this, but I do hear racist comments still and it frustrates me rather than angers me. Sometimes it is plain ignorance and others it has been thrown as abuse. But what I heard in the 80’s and 90’s was much worse and it was mostly (not all) at football unfortunately. 

All I can do is show my disagreement of such comments and educate my children that is not ok to discriminate against anyone. Then hopefully this will go a small way. 
 

Oh and should that not be Anti, Anti racism?  “I don’t think anyone is anti racism” said Turkish 😬 

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5 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

I do agree with most of this, but I do hear racist comments still and it frustrates me rather than angers me. Sometimes it is plain ignorance and others it has been thrown as abuse. But what I heard in the 80’s and 90’s was much worse and it was mostly (not all) at football unfortunately. 

All I can do is show my disagreement of such comments and educate my children that is not ok to discriminate against anyone. Then hopefully this will go a small way. 
 

Oh and should that not be Anti, Anti racism?  “I don’t think anyone is anti racism” said Turkish 😬 

Correct “anti anti racism” 😃

 

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23 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

Overall I think we can agree that as a country have come a long way since the 70’s, 80’s and even more recently on all these matters. The media now is so under the microscope and instant that things seem much worse than they actually are. You drill down and compare to yesteryear and, well there is no comparison. It does not mean that we do not go on educating and try and continue trying to improve things even further. 

I think it depends though doesn't it. "Improving things even further" for some people is where there is disagreement. Positive discrimination in jobs for example, or job applications where only those of a certain race can apply. Then there's the whole minefield of women's rights and abolishing women only spaces. Some believe this is simply improving things even further but for others it's an intolerable infringement on their rights. Same with gender issues and children. Some of the awful abuses from the Tavistock centre outlined in their recent court case loss were committed in the name of improving things even further. So there's a debate to be had there about what constitutes improving things further and it's certainly not a settled issue. 

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9 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I think it depends though doesn't it. "Improving things even further" for some people is where there is disagreement. Positive discrimination in jobs for example, or job applications where only those of a certain race can apply. Then there's the whole minefield of women's rights and abolishing women only spaces. Some believe this is simply improving things even further but for others it's an intolerable infringement on their rights. Same with gender issues and children. Some of the awful abuses from the Tavistock centre outlined in their recent court case loss were committed in the name of improving things even further. So there's a debate to be had there about what constitutes improving things further and it's certainly not a settled issue. 

What winds me and may others up is being preached to by self righteous cunts like soggy who never see a black person but are endlessly preaching about how bad it all is and how they are speaking out against it, by posting on a football Internet forum, saving the world one post at a time 🤣

imo these white, middle class people are the worst. Live in leafy white towns an villages yet have this superiority complex that they know what is needed to fix all the worlds problems. Talking down to anyone who doesn’t agree with them and a patronising they need our help POCs, desperate to show their outrage at any possible opportunity to show how much they care but not actually doing anything other than talk about it. There are thousands of them. Just got to look at the Soppy middle class students all over every movement these days. 

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Why would you boo..?

https://senioronboarding.leadershipacademy.nhs.uk/blog-dear-white-people-in-the-uk/

This utter bollocks has infiltrated most organisations in the UK and taking a knee is part of it. Anyone opposed to this sort of thinking is automatically branded a racist and it’s now well and truly found its way into our football clubs and leagues.

The players are obviously not left leaning or Marxist, but the agenda pushing this stuff daily throughout our organisations and the media certainly is. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Griffo said:

Why would you boo..?

https://senioronboarding.leadershipacademy.nhs.uk/blog-dear-white-people-in-the-uk/

This utter bollocks has infiltrated most organisations in the UK and taking a knee is part of it. Anyone opposed to this sort of thinking is automatically branded a racist and it’s now well and truly found its way into our football clubs and leagues.

The players are obviously not left leaning or Marxist, but the agenda pushing this stuff daily throughout our organisations and the media certainly is. 

 

I wasn't going to bother reading this because it was addressed to an entire racial group but I skimmed through and goodness me that is absolutely appalling and on an NHS website as well. Shockingly racist but sadly when you promote these people you get this sort of thing to justify their salary. 

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What some people on here are forgetting, though, is it is the players themselves making the gesture. Not the bbc, not the Marxist-agenda pushing press (whoever they are … is it a club?).

It’s the players. 
Some of whom are black, and some of whom are their mates. 
They are the ones wanting to make a gesture showing they believe there is no place for racism in society. This Marxist ‘club’ may vocally support it and annoy some of you by talking loudly about it … but it’s still the players doing it.

So the players … pampered and over-paid. Self-obsessed. Downright nasty, some of them.

But they don’t like being booed (not really in uk, but virtually every time they play in Eastern Europe) and abused on social media for their or skin colour. And why should they?

Just because they’re overpaid tw4ts they should lose their right to complain? If they were taking the knee to protest being booed for playing badly and losing I’d understand people’s opposition but they’re not. They’re protesting racism, they receive its abuse more than most (and who of us actually knows how that constant drip feed of vile abuse feels?) and want to protest it / slash support their mates.

Why would anyone want to boo the players for this 5 second gesture?

Final thought - hypo saying they were always going to provoke this response in Hungary because it’s quite a racist place so shouldn’t have done so (I paraphrase). WTF??? Trying to bring these places out of the dark ages by highlighting the issue and applying pressure via FIFA should be applauded.

If the rest of the world tells you you’re wrong about something you might just listen. If it’s totally ignored you won’t. Worth a punt I reckon.

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4 minutes ago, Chewy said:

What some people on here are forgetting, though, is it is the players themselves making the gesture. Not the bbc, not the Marxist-agenda pushing press (whoever they are … is it a club?).

It’s the players. 
Some of whom are black, and some of whom are their mates. 
They are the ones wanting to make a gesture showing they believe there is no place for racism in society. This Marxist ‘club’ may vocally support it and annoy some of you by talking loudly about it … but it’s still the players doing it.

So the players … pampered and over-paid. Self-obsessed. Downright nasty, some of them.

But they don’t like being booed (not really in uk, but virtually every time they play in Eastern Europe) and abused on social media for their or skin colour. And why should they?

Just because they’re overpaid tw4ts they should lose their right to complain? If they were taking the knee to protest being booed for playing badly and losing I’d understand people’s opposition but they’re not. They’re protesting racism, they receive its abuse more than most (and who of us actually knows how that constant drip feed of vile abuse feels?) and want to protest it / slash support their mates.

Why would anyone want to boo the players for this 5 second gesture?

Final thought - hypo saying they were always going to provoke this response in Hungary because it’s quite a racist place so shouldn’t have done so (I paraphrase). WTF??? Trying to bring these places out of the dark ages by highlighting the issue and applying pressure via FIFA should be applauded.

If the rest of the world tells you you’re wrong about something you might just listen. If it’s totally ignored you won’t. Worth a punt I reckon.

If it is the players then why didn’t the premier league based players who aren’t English take the knee at the Euros?

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12 minutes ago, Chewy said:

What some people on here are forgetting, though, is it is the players themselves making the gesture. Not the bbc, not the Marxist-agenda pushing press (whoever they are … is it a club?).

It’s the players. 
Some of whom are black, and some of whom are their mates. 
They are the ones wanting to make a gesture showing they believe there is no place for racism in society. This Marxist ‘club’ may vocally support it and annoy some of you by talking loudly about it … but it’s still the players doing it.

So the players … pampered and over-paid. Self-obsessed. Downright nasty, some of them.

But they don’t like being booed (not really in uk, but virtually every time they play in Eastern Europe) and abused on social media for their or skin colour. And why should they?

Just because they’re overpaid tw4ts they should lose their right to complain? If they were taking the knee to protest being booed for playing badly and losing I’d understand people’s opposition but they’re not. They’re protesting racism, they receive its abuse more than most (and who of us actually knows how that constant drip feed of vile abuse feels?) and want to protest it / slash support their mates.

Why would anyone want to boo the players for this 5 second gesture?

Final thought - hypo saying they were always going to provoke this response in Hungary because it’s quite a racist place so shouldn’t have done so (I paraphrase). WTF??? Trying to bring these places out of the dark ages by highlighting the issue and applying pressure via FIFA should be applauded.

If the rest of the world tells you you’re wrong about something you might just listen. If it’s totally ignored you won’t. Worth a punt I reckon.

Think you got me confused with someone else as I didn't say that. 

With regards your point on players, that would be fine if I didn't know for a fact that some of the players don't actually want to do it but felt that it would cause a bigger issue not to do so. Of course its the players doing it but they are the representatives of the clubs so it's not just the players doing it in a personal capacity is it. 

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50 minutes ago, Griffo said:

Why would you boo..?

https://senioronboarding.leadershipacademy.nhs.uk/blog-dear-white-people-in-the-uk/

This utter bollocks has infiltrated most organisations in the UK and taking a knee is part of it. Anyone opposed to this sort of thinking is automatically branded a racist and it’s now well and truly found its way into our football clubs and leagues.

The players are obviously not left leaning or Marxist, but the agenda pushing this stuff daily throughout our organisations and the media certainly is. 

 

Reading that really does reinforce the anti woke argument (Turkish will have a field day with that one😎).

Right minded, socially aware citizens do not need to be told what to read or watch !

Totally inflammatory IMHO !

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30 minutes ago, Chewy said:

What some people on here are forgetting, though, is it is the players themselves making the gesture. Not the bbc, not the Marxist-agenda pushing press (whoever they are … is it a club?).

It’s the players. 
Some of whom are black, and some of whom are their mates. 
They are the ones wanting to make a gesture showing they believe there is no place for racism in society. This Marxist ‘club’ may vocally support it and annoy some of you by talking loudly about it … but it’s still the players doing it.

So the players … pampered and over-paid. Self-obsessed. Downright nasty, some of them.

But they don’t like being booed (not really in uk, but virtually every time they play in Eastern Europe) and abused on social media for their or skin colour. And why should they?

Just because they’re overpaid tw4ts they should lose their right to complain? If they were taking the knee to protest being booed for playing badly and losing I’d understand people’s opposition but they’re not. They’re protesting racism, they receive its abuse more than most (and who of us actually knows how that constant drip feed of vile abuse feels?) and want to protest it / slash support their mates.

Why would anyone want to boo the players for this 5 second gesture?

Final thought - hypo saying they were always going to provoke this response in Hungary because it’s quite a racist place so shouldn’t have done so (I paraphrase). WTF??? Trying to bring these places out of the dark ages by highlighting the issue and applying pressure via FIFA should be applauded.

If the rest of the world tells you you’re wrong about something you might just listen. If it’s totally ignored you won’t. Worth a punt I reckon.

Decent post, but this isn't player driven. Brentford players (many black, playing for a very diverse club) chose not to take the knee last season stating, and I paraphrase, that it's a load of bollox. They get promoted to the premier league and, what do you know, they're on their knees. Do you believe that they've had a sudden change of heart, or that its got something to do with promotion to the world's richest league and having to toe the line? 

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8 minutes ago, eurosaint said:

Reading that really does reinforce the anti woke argument (Turkish will have a field day with that one😎).

Right minded, socially aware citizens do not need to be told what to read or watch !

Totally inflammatory IMHO !

What's very sad is that well meaning liberal and compassionate people are co-opted into this cult-like way, of thinking and then are unwittingly used for insidious purposes. I have no doubt that most people who subscribe to this way of thinking believe that they are doing good and that's a tragedy. Of course there's also soggy types who use it as an excuse to feel superior to others, to upset who they see as their ideological opponents and who actually don't give a damn about others but just want to have their preconceived bias confirmed. 

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https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/04/i-just-sat-there-thinking-im-a-cricketer-what-makes-me-different

I think this plus the latest the Yorkshire Cricket Club racism inquiry show the real issue there is . This is the institutional predudice that needs addressing and I think would lead to a fairer outcome . Cricket seems to be behind the times compared to football , football still has work to do to get more non white people in positions at all levels . On the player front football is doing well but there are few coaches and less as you go up the pyramid of football.

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10 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/04/i-just-sat-there-thinking-im-a-cricketer-what-makes-me-different

I think this plus the latest the Yorkshire Cricket Club racism inquiry show the real issue there is . This is the institutional predudice that needs addressing and I think would lead to a fairer outcome . Cricket seems to be behind the times compared to football , football still has work to do to get more non white people in positions at all levels . On the player front football is doing well but there are few coaches and less as you go up the pyramid of football.

It's equality of opportunity that's important not equality of outcome. I don't want to see tokenism in football but I'd love to see a black manager at one of the top teams arriving on merit and performing really well. 

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PS I think the knee thing has run it's course , I was surprised they carried it over into this season .I suppose they thought they would do it as the fans are back . In itself it is just a gesture but there needs to be some follow up by the PFA , Kick it Out and the clubs to come to an agreement about the invisible barriers for some .

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6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's equality of opportunity that's important not equality of outcome. I don't want to see tokenism in football but I'd love to see a black manager at one of the top teams arriving on merit and performing really well. 

Agreed .

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11 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

PS I think the knee thing has run it's course , I was surprised they carried it over into this season .I suppose they thought they would do it as the fans are back . In itself it is just a gesture but there needs to be some follow up by the PFA , Kick it Out and the clubs to come to an agreement about the invisible barriers for some .

I predicted a while ago that eventually they will announce something like a black inclusion task force or something like that and then use that announcement to end the knee taking whilst claiming victory. It's really the only way they can do it without letting the "racists" win. 

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17 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's equality of opportunity that's important not equality of outcome. I don't want to see tokenism in football but I'd love to see a black manager at one of the top teams arriving on merit and performing really well. 

Being black didnt appear to stop Ruud Guilt and Frank Rijkard both managing two pretty big clubs in Chelsea and Barcelona somehow.

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8 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/04/i-just-sat-there-thinking-im-a-cricketer-what-makes-me-different

I think this plus the latest the Yorkshire Cricket Club racism inquiry show the real issue there is . This is the institutional predudice that needs addressing and I think would lead to a fairer outcome . Cricket seems to be behind the times compared to football , football still has work to do to get more non white people in positions at all levels . On the player front football is doing well but there are few coaches and less as you go up the pyramid of football.

That's a good and interesting article, thanks.

It says that only 1% of players in grass roots cricket are black (I'm unsure if the reference to "black" also extended to Asian and other non white groups). Does that stand as evidence of institutional racism? Or is the case that, for reasons unknown, black people in this country don't want to play cricket? Perhaps it's because there are no clubs near to where they live, but if that's down to geography, is that institutional racism or an unfortunate fact of life? 

What happened to Lawrence in 1981 was awful and sadly indicative of the era. It wouldn't happen now though. Indeed, Mark Butcher seemingly experienced no racism issues when he played in a later era. 

Sure, there is a lack of representation in coaching etc in cricket (and football although the England set up are trying very hard to address that with players like Ashley Cole and our Paul Williams suddenly getting big jobs) has always baffled me. 

Anyways, my point is that historical issues and a lack of opportunity does not equate to institutional racism now. Anyone can see that things have improved massively, but giving people jobs because they're black, assuming that football has a race problem because a few racists on twitter target footballers, assuming that cricket has a race issue because black people either choose not to play or don't have the access to facilities, calling people racists because they don't support the knee (despite naively believing that the players have chosen to do it), etc, etc, doesn't help. 

The simple fact is that racism exists, albeit to a lesser and hopefully reducing extent, but a person's ideology will not be eradicated by another person's naive hope that racists can be made to think like normal people by all of these actions. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Being black didnt appear to stop Ruud Guilt and Frank Rijkard both managing two pretty big clubs in Chelsea and Barcelona somehow.

It made me sad seeing Sol Campbell doing the rounds the other week angling for jobs and implying racism is to blame for his poor performance and I despaired if this was the representative being used for a black person working in football. 

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2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It made me sad seeing Sol Campbell doing the rounds the other week angling for jobs and implying racism is to blame for his poor performance and I despaired if this was the representative being used for a black person working in football. 

Maybe someone should remind him what skin colour the manager of the team currently top of the premier league is.

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4 minutes ago, Singapore Saint said:

I think many people are quietly but keenly interested in how Patrick Viera fares as Crystal Palace manager.

Does anyone remember Sammy Chung managing Wolves round about the time we won the FA Cup?

I don’t particularly like Palace but I’d like to see him do well because he was a brilliant player who I loved and part of one of my favourite ever non saints teams and seems like a decent bloke, not because hes black. I would question the motives of anyone keen to see him do well just because he’s black.

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1 hour ago, Chewy said:

What some people on here are forgetting, though, is it is the players themselves making the gesture. Not the bbc, not the Marxist-agenda pushing press (whoever they are … is it a club?).

It’s the players. 
Some of whom are black, and some of whom are their mates. 
They are the ones wanting to make a gesture showing they believe there is no place for racism in society. This Marxist ‘club’ may vocally support it and annoy some of you by talking loudly about it … but it’s still the players doing it.

So the players … pampered and over-paid. Self-obsessed. Downright nasty, some of them.

But they don’t like being booed (not really in uk, but virtually every time they play in Eastern Europe) and abused on social media for their or skin colour. And why should they?

Just because they’re overpaid tw4ts they should lose their right to complain? If they were taking the knee to protest being booed for playing badly and losing I’d understand people’s opposition but they’re not. They’re protesting racism, they receive its abuse more than most (and who of us actually knows how that constant drip feed of vile abuse feels?) and want to protest it / slash support their mates.

Why would anyone want to boo the players for this 5 second gesture?

Final thought - hypo saying they were always going to provoke this response in Hungary because it’s quite a racist place so shouldn’t have done so (I paraphrase). WTF??? Trying to bring these places out of the dark ages by highlighting the issue and applying pressure via FIFA should be applauded.

If the rest of the world tells you you’re wrong about something you might just listen. If it’s totally ignored you won’t. Worth a punt I reckon.

So every single player taking the knee agrees with the gesture ….. That is patently not the case or possible. This is driven by money and Premier  League marketing and populism - nothing else. 
Many decent fans are tired of being preached to by the footballing elite and would like it to stop thank you.

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1 hour ago, egg said:

That's a good and interesting article, thanks.

It says that only 1% of players in grass roots cricket are black (I'm unsure if the reference to "black" also extended to Asian and other non white groups). Does that stand as evidence of institutional racism? Or is the case that, for reasons unknown, black people in this country don't want to play cricket? Perhaps it's because there are no clubs near to where they live, but if that's down to geography, is that institutional racism or an unfortunate fact of life? 

What happened to Lawrence in 1981 was awful and sadly indicative of the era. It wouldn't happen now though. Indeed, Mark Butcher seemingly experienced no racism issues when he played in a later era. 

Sure, there is a lack of representation in coaching etc in cricket (and football although the England set up are trying very hard to address that with players like Ashley Cole and our Paul Williams suddenly getting big jobs) has always baffled me. 

Anyways, my point is that historical issues and a lack of opportunity does not equate to institutional racism now. Anyone can see that things have improved massively, but giving people jobs because they're black, assuming that football has a race problem because a few racists on twitter target footballers, assuming that cricket has a race issue because black people either choose not to play or don't have the access to facilities, calling people racists because they don't support the knee (despite naively believing that the players have chosen to do it), etc, etc, doesn't help. 

The simple fact is that racism exists, albeit to a lesser and hopefully reducing extent, but a person's ideology will not be eradicated by another person's naive hope that racists can be made to think like normal people by all of these actions. 

 

In Yorkshire the chances of getting into a team in the local leagues was so remote they set up their own Asian league system. Don't forget the Umpires who also have had their own problems which is more recent. The problem is current as shown at YCC where the same people are still in charge and they are stalling on sharing the report on the investigation.

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49 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I don’t particularly like Palace but I’d like to see him do well because he was a brilliant player who I loved and part of one of my favourite ever non saints teams and seems like a decent bloke, not because hes black. I would question the motives of anyone keen to see him do well just because he’s black.

I'd like to see him do well at least in part because he's black because it would prevent race baiters like that bloke from the association of Black lawyers from calling everyone racist due to less black managers. 

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This may divulge slightly off topic, but it's still relevant.

Personally I have no issues, and never have had any issues, with people who are of colour, people who are gay, lesbian, transsexual. Absolutley no problem. They don't offend me, I live my life and they live their lives. 

There's nothing wrong with raising awareness of when discrimination happens, not at all (and to be fair it's much better than it was many years ago) - but what I do have a problem with, and many people do, is being told how to act or what to say in order to keep certain sections of these groups happy - not the majority, let me add, as I have a lot of friends of colour who are against what is happening and they feel it's creating more divides - as we are probably seeing.

That NHS article above sums it all up really. This is exactly the waffle which is infiltrating organisations far and wide at the moment. To add some relevance, I was working with someone at work who was terrible. He made so many mistakes, so many errors, I was spending my own time fixing all his mistakes and he was incapable of learning and was taking the piss on the side. I was advised by management not to flag it as I would be seen as racist (he was coloured). That had nothing to do with it, he was just terrible at his job. Funnily enough this guy is still there and he hasn't improved.

I don't want to live my life walking on egg shells in case what I say or do is seen as the wrong thing or out of context. Any decent human being will have absolutely no problem with culture and embrace it naturally, we just don't want it rammed down our necks 24/7 and made to feel racist or homophobic if we dare disagree with one of their view points. Taking the knee is an example of this and it's run it's course now. I wouldn't boo it but it feels like it's creating more tension than good.

Edited by S-Clarke
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1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Being black didnt appear to stop Ruud Guilt and Frank Rijkard both managing two pretty big clubs in Chelsea and Barcelona somehow.

What colour is the Spurs Manager?

Clubs would employ the Taliban leader if it guaranteed them success, so the thought they would not choose the best man because of his skin colour is bizarre. If they’re good enough they’ll get the job regardless of colour , it’s as simple as that 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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31 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

In Yorkshire the chances of getting into a team in the local leagues was so remote they set up their own Asian league system. Don't forget the Umpires who also have had their own problems which is more recent. The problem is current as shown at YCC where the same people are still in charge and they are stalling on sharing the report on the investigation.

Cheers, I must confess that I don't know about the Yorkshire situation. That suggests that all clubs across Yorkshire were refusing to give Asian players a game. That seems extraordinary. On to football, I hope that we can all agree that young black players are given equal opportunity, the make up of first team and youth team squads seems to suggest that. Why that doesn't translate to coaching and management is a bit of a mystery though. I'd like to see some stats on how many black / asian people who do their coaching badges (Pro ones) get opportunities compared to white people. 

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