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Are we a better team when JWP isn’t in it?


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16 minutes ago, TWar said:

He was 19, and playing in a completely different position. Hardly fair to write him off after that.

Yes, 100%. Broja was very poor against championship opposition and to be honest he was OK against Leeds but hardly amazing. Armstrong is a better player now, certainly. Broja may become better as he is younger but he is not now at all.

Saying a bunch of letters which don't mean anything isn't the dunk you think it is, it just shows you don't really understand the ones that do.

Bit like not understanding the difference between a good cool finish and a tap in I guess 

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19 minutes ago, TWar said:

 

Yes, 100%. Broja was very poor against championship opposition and to be honest he was OK against Leeds but hardly amazing. Armstrong is a better player now, certainly. Broja may become better as he is younger but he is not now at all.

 

Funny enough, I remember a young lad called Sadio Mane also struggling against Sheffield United (who were in League one at the time). What ever happened to him? 

If I’m honest, I thought you were more intelligent than a ridiculous statement like this (and you said Armstrong has a higher ceiling, another stupid comment, don’t back track now) Everyone has bad games. He’s a young lad so naturally will be slightly inconsistent.

You're clearly good at crunching the numbers, but I don’t think you have a clue about real football. 

If we play with a sole striker, it has to be Broja. If we play with 2 up top, it should be Armstrong and Broja. 

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27 minutes ago, TWar said:

Saying a bunch of letters which don't mean anything isn't the dunk you think it is, it just shows you don't really understand the ones that do.

Yeah, but he got Pi in there and that made more sense than the suggestion that Armstrong has more potential than Broja. 

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37 minutes ago, egg said:

Yeah, but he got Pi in there and that made more sense than the suggestion that Armstrong has more potential than Broja. 

Well Armstrong got 28 championship goals whereas Broja got 10 in a comparable league. Broja scored and won us the game and I am as happy about that as anyone but he has now had one quite good game (I still don't think he was that great against Leeds, he got the goal which was very simple even if you don't like the word "tap in", but also wasted a couple of chances including skying it rather than playing Redmond through for an easy goal) and one shocker. Maybe you are right, and maybe he'll take off but if you take their previous seasons into account then Armstrong is firmly ahead of Broja for now.

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56 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Bit like not understanding the difference between a good cool finish and a tap in I guess 

If you think beating the keeper from 10 yards out centrally and unmarked is a "good finish" then fine, have lower standards. It was a standard finish. He could have missed it but I back any of our strikers to put that way 75+% of the time (except Long, who is nowhere near even Championship level anymore)

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57 minutes ago, Dman said:

Funny enough, I remember a young lad called Sadio Mane also struggling against Sheffield United (who were in League one at the time). What ever happened to him? 

If I’m honest, I thought you were more intelligent than a ridiculous statement like this (and you said Armstrong has a higher ceiling, another stupid comment, don’t back track now) Everyone has bad games. He’s a young lad so naturally will be slightly inconsistent.

You're clearly good at crunching the numbers, but I don’t think you have a clue about real football. 

If we play with a sole striker, it has to be Broja. If we play with 2 up top, it should be Armstrong and Broja. 

This is what we in the trade call anecdotal evidence, you will often find good players having one off poor games, they then go on and prove themselves over a long period of time. If Broja does this then fair play but saying "his bad game doesn't matter because great players also have the occasional bad game early in their career" is a silly argument because they also have many many more excellent games to offset it, Broja hasn't done that yet. Also I'm not backtracking. Broja seems decent. He has had one good game for us and one bad game. I am not rushing to put him ahead of Armstrong who I do believe is better now and I do believe has a higher ceiling. I can't prove ceiling hence why I said Broja "may become better", Armstrong could do his ACL, Broja could have a Kane-style swing and become a world star, right now Armstrong is more likely to be great for me.

Broja and Armstrong is a poor idea in my opinion. Broja has nowhere near Adams' ability to pass and set up play from his current evidence. There is no point having two people who are quick and can finish and not having a player who can put them through. If our attacking mids really step up then maybe but with our current chance creation ability we need Adams.

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7 minutes ago, TWar said:

If you think beating the keeper from 10 yards out centrally and unmarked is a "good finish" then fine, have lower standards. It was a standard finish. He could have missed it but I back any of our strikers to put that way 75+% of the time.

Maybe there is a reason why he was Unmarked? It’s also a false claim as he got absolutely clattered by the defender after he’d tucked it away. Unfortunately your statistics don’t tell you the full story. Doesn’t stop you being incredibly pompous though does it, which is unfortunate. 

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8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Maybe there is a reason why he was Unmarked? It’s also a false claim as he got absolutely clattered by the defender after he’d tucked it away. Unfortunately your statistics don’t tell you the full story. Doesn’t stop you being incredibly pompous though does it, which is unfortunate. 

He got clattered way after the ball had been struck. 

image.png.586786c1df1696853d6f727b24399e92.png

By the time he makes contact the ball was already past the keeper

image.thumb.png.b911b1b19597dbb7d9db5f2c7c67250b.png

Looks pretty unmarked to me. He did well to be unmarked, but really it was Redmonds run that pulled the CB out of position to open up the gap, he exploited the gap and that is a good trait. I'm not being negative about Broja, I think he's a good player, but off the basis off the two full games he has played saying he is ahead of Adams and Armstrong is a poor take for me. Also, it's easy to construe people as pompous or talking down to you when you aren't very bright. Talking at a normal level counts as talking down to you.

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Anyway, back to the original question in the thread title...

I'm starting to wonder if JWP's suspension is actually a blessing in disguise. He missed all the pre-season games and was rushed back and played every until yesterday, and it's quite obvious he's not been up to his usual standard so far this season. Diallo more than adequately filled in for him against Leeds and can do again in the next two games, and Prowsey then gets a rest which he looks like he needed. His involvement for England will have also given him a confidence boost.

He'll sit out the game against Burnley and the cup tie at Chelsea, who will undoubtedly field a weakened team. Then he'll be back fresh for Watford in 2 weeks time where he may actually have to compete for his place if Diallo can repeat his performance from Saturday, which can only be a good thing.

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7 minutes ago, TWar said:

He got clattered way after the ball had been struck. 

image.png.586786c1df1696853d6f727b24399e92.png

By the time he makes contact the ball was already past the keeper

image.thumb.png.b911b1b19597dbb7d9db5f2c7c67250b.png

Looks pretty unmarked to me. It's easy to construe people as pompous or talking down to you when you aren't very bright. Talking at a normal level counts as talking down to you.

LOL, you are talking about fractions of seconds. Again, your stats don’t tell you that. Such a shame you can’t have a discussion without resorting to those sort of comments. Guess it says quite a bit about you

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2 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Anyway, back to the original question in the thread title...

I'm starting to wonder if JWP's suspension is actually a blessing in disguise. He missed all the pre-season games and was rushed back and played every until yesterday, and it's quite obvious he's not been up to his usual standard so far this season. Diallo more than adequately filled in for him against Leeds and can do again in the next two games, and Prowsey then gets a rest which he looks like he needed. His involvement for England will have also given him a confidence boost.

He'll sit out the game against Burnley and the cup tie at Chelsea, who will undoubtedly field a weakened team. Then he'll be back fresh for Watford in 2 weeks time where he may actually have to compete for his place if Diallo can repeat his performance from Saturday, which can only be a good thing.

A rest certainly will do him good, agreed. And having three quality players competing for two positions is the dream really. We have it at fullback, we have it in the middle, and we have it up top. It's nice to see the squad actually have meaningful competition for places.

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Just now, Turkish said:

LOL, you are talking about fractions of seconds. Again, your stats don’t tell you that. Such a shame you can’t have a discussion without resorting to those sort of comments. Guess it says quite a bit about you

When he struck the ball he was in loads of space. He got clattered late but that wasn't a meaningful challenge for the ball and should have been a card. It doesn't effect the difficulty of the shot that he got blindsighted by a late challenge after he had already shot.

Also, sorry mate, but if you call someone pompous for knowing more than you about things don't expect them not to point it out.

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  On 16/10/2021 at 23:19, Dman said:

I think we are. He’s very good at retaining the ball, but he’s far too slow on the ball and slows our attacks down. 

Looking forward to seeing how Diallo develops with a run of games next to Romeu. 

Discuss…

Not only is JWP ponderous on the ball but when he is playing there seems to be a team instruction to always feed the ball to him, a tactic that virtually ensures that nearly every attack is brought to a halt while JWP works out which is the safest next pass to make, usually sideways or backwards. Meanwhile oppo's defenders have taken up position in their trenches. He is a very slow thinker.

100% correct.

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34 minutes ago, TWar said:

Well Armstrong got 28 championship goals whereas Broja got 10 in a comparable league. Broja scored and won us the game and I am as happy about that as anyone but he has now had one quite good game (I still don't think he was that great against Leeds, he got the goal which was very simple even if you don't like the word "tap in", but also wasted a couple of chances including skying it rather than playing Redmond through for an easy goal) and one shocker. Maybe you are right, and maybe he'll take off but if you take their previous seasons into account then Armstrong is firmly ahead of Broja for now.

It's not the "for now" part I necessarily take issue with (although having seen what Broja has done for Albania I'm not convinced that Armstrong is beat his current level) it's the suggestion that Armstrong has a higher "ceiling" than Broja, ie that he has more potential. We see it very differently - Broja will be a special player imo, Armstrong won't. 

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1 minute ago, egg said:

It's not the "for now" part I necessarily take issue with (although having seen what Broja has done for Albania I'm not convinced that Armstrong is beat his current level) it's the suggestion that Armstrong has a higher "ceiling" than Broja, ie that he has more potential. We see it very differently - Broja will be a special player imo, Armstrong won't. 

That's a fair opinion. I disagree but predicting into the future is super tricky. Who would have thought a young Kane or Vardy were going to be any good? Lets see what happens. I think both will have successful careers for the record, neither will likely be incredible but both are very talented. The only player I'd be willing to put my neck out and say is a superstar in the making and would be surprised if he isn't the next big thing in a few years is Livramento.

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31 minutes ago, TWar said:

When he struck the ball he was in loads of space. He got clattered late but that wasn't a meaningful challenge for the ball and should have been a card. It doesn't effect the difficulty of the shot that he got blindsighted by a late challenge after he had already shot.

Also, sorry mate, but if you call someone pompous for knowing more than you about things don't expect them not to point it out.

So on the one hand you’re saying he was in loads of space, it wasn’t a meaningful challenge for the ball then in same sentence say it should have been a card. Despite you saying you know more I’m really not sure you understand what point you’re trying to make as you’re all over the place. 

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Just now, Turkish said:

So on the one hand you’re saying he was in loads of space, it wasn’t a meaningful challenge for the ball then in same sentence say it should have been a card. Despite you saying you know more I’m really not sure you understand what point you’re trying to make as you’re all over the place. 

Yes. It wasn't a meaningful challenge for the ball and when the ball was struck by Broja there was loads of space. Then, after the ball was struck, the defender came in and clattered him. This is what they call a "late challenge" and should be a card when reckless which it was. These things aren't mutually exclusive, I'm only "all over the place" because you can't understand the simple concept of "challenging someone after the ball has gone is a foul and often a card but doesn't effect the playing of the ball as that happened before the challenge". Didn't feel I would have to explain the concept of things happening after other things to an adult today but here we are.

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6 minutes ago, TWar said:

Yes. It wasn't a meaningful challenge for the ball and when the ball was struck by Broja there was loads of space. Then, after the ball was struck, the defender came in and clattered him. This is what they call a "late challenge" and should be a card when reckless which it was. These things aren't mutually exclusive, I'm only "all over the place" because you can't understand the simple concept of "challenging someone after the ball has gone is a foul and often a card but doesn't effect the playing of the ball as that happened before the challenge". Didn't feel I would have to explain the concept of things happening after other things to an adult today but here we are.

 

 

Once again you’re talking about fractions of seconds, something stats can’t tell. The ball travels at about 13 metres a second.  I’ll leave it here with this picture. If you think this is “a tap in” “loads of space” and “a meaningless challenge” it’s you that doesnt get it pal, but then as we’ve seen from you’re previous posts you’ve probably not kicked a ball in your life in a proper match. Have a great afternoon 

F23EA94F-5F3B-48B4-84CE-2FC7166FD5CA.jpeg

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Just now, Turkish said:

 

 

I’ll leave it here. If you think this is “a tap in” “loads of space” and “a meaningless challenge” it’s you that doesnt get it pal, but then as we’ve seen from you’re previous posts you’ve probably not kicked a ball in your life in a proper match. Have a great afternoon 

F23EA94F-5F3B-48B4-84CE-2FC7166FD5CA.jpeg

So you pick an angle where you can't see the distance between the players very easily, the ball has already been struck, and you can still see that the defender is not really anywhere near challenging for the ball. Nice.

Also "you haven't kicked a ball" without any evidence. It's the Turkish classic. "So what if I'm wrong, I'm probably better at PLAYING football than them, even if I don't know as much about it". You keep telling yourself that.

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2 minutes ago, TWar said:

So you pick an angle where you can't see the distance between the players very easily, the ball has already been struck, and you can still see that the defender is not really anywhere near challenging for the ball. Nice.

Also "you haven't kicked a ball" without any evidence. It's the Turkish classic. "So what if I'm wrong, I'm probably better at PLAYING football than them, even if I don't know as much about it". You keep telling yourself that.

You posted the other angle why post the same thing twice? Do everyone a favour and Get your stop watch out and time how long there was between Borja hitting the ball and him being taken out. Then we can decide if it was a meaningless challenge and Broja was in “loads of space” for his “tap in”

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13 minutes ago, Turkish said:

You posted the other angle why post the same thing twice? Do everyone a favour and Get your stop watch out and time how long there was between Borja hitting the ball and him being taken out. Then we can decide if it was a meaningless challenge and Broja was in “loads of space” for his “tap in”

Because if you want to see the distance between two things then looking at them from in front is better than looking at one in the foreground and one in the background. You see humans have depth perception as they have two eyes which send their brain two different images so they can see things in 3D. However pictures are in 2D which makes perceiving depth quite challenging. Therefore you shouldn't make the axis on a picture you wish to observe the depth axis. There we go, I have explained both the linearity of time to you today and also how pictures work. No such thing as a silly question, I guess.

I don't know what relevance a "stop watch" has. The moment Broja strikes it his role in the goal is over, from then on it's physics' job! If he gets clattered half a second after or three hours after it makes little difference, you can't have a causal link that flows backwards through time. You could maybe argue if he saw the defender in the corner of his eye before hitting it it may have put him off but as you can clearly see in my, non-stupidly selected, picture there is a good distance the moment he strikes it so seems unlikely to me!

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20 minutes ago, haddock22 said:
  On 16/10/2021 at 23:19, Dman said:

I think we are. He’s very good at retaining the ball, but he’s far too slow on the ball and slows our attacks down. 

Looking forward to seeing how Diallo develops with a run of games next to Romeu. 

Discuss…

Not only is JWP ponderous on the ball but when he is playing there seems to be a team instruction to always feed the ball to him, a tactic that virtually ensures that nearly every attack is brought to a halt while JWP works out which is the safest next pass to make, usually sideways or backwards. Meanwhile oppo's defenders have taken up position in their trenches. He is a very slow thinker.

100% correct.

Not a bad summary really, nice opinion, ill share mine.

My opinion is this - that jwp passes forwards more than diallo and that he is the one that normally starts  attacks off so realise that jwp passes forward alot more than diallo, and so does OR.... 

 

You watch the game against leeds i assume yeah? how many times did you spot diallo passing forward? How many times, excluding free kicks and corners did he even get into the box? How many crosses into the box? 

Am sure TWar will know. 

Then ask your self the same question abot jwp and the city game... Compare the difficulty of each team, think of your expected result then remeber the result, then think of the chances that started from jwp eg putting liv free on the wing, n armstrong and so on. Then think carefully about the leeds game and focus on diallo and you will notice he didnt start a single attack, or put in a cross and only did 4 - 6 forward passes in the whole game and wasnt involved in any attacks at all. 

My opinion ofc. I have not fact checked it, but i cant picture my self being to far out on my numbers. 

 

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8 minutes ago, TWar said:

Because if you want to see the distance between two things then looking at them from in front is better than looking at one in the foreground and one in the background. You see humans have depth perception as they have two eyes so can see things in 3D. However pictures are in 2D which makes perceiving depth quite challenging. Therefore you shouldn't make the axis on a picture you wish to observe the depth axis. There we go, I have explained both the linearity of time to you today and also how pictures work. No such thing as a silly question, I guess.

I don't know what relevance a "stop watch" has. The moment Broja strikes it his role in the goal is over, from then on it's physics' job! If he gets clattered half a second after or three hours after it makes little difference, you can't have a causal link that flows backwards through time. You could maybe argue if he saw the defender in the corner of his eye before hitting it it may have put him off but as you can clearly see in my, non-stupidly selected, picture there is a good distance the moment he strikes it so seems unlikely to me!

Your arguments is Borja was in loads of space. If he gets clatter three hours after he hits it you’re right. If it was less a second or so then your point is weakened. But I guess you know that which is why you’re making silly points like it doesn’t matter if it was a second or 3 hours. Strange for someone who knows so much more than us mere mortals 

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Just now, Turkish said:

Your arguments is Borja was in loads of space. If he gets clatter three hours after he hits it you’re right. If it was less a second or so then your point is weakened. But I guess you know that which is why you’re making silly points like it doesn’t matter if it was a second or 3 hours. 

He was in loads of space when he hit it, you can see that from my picture of the state of play when he hit it, not sure why the conversation needs to go on beyond that? Why does it matter how much space he was after the shot? Honestly I think you are just pretending to be more silly than you are to waste my time, before you came across as not so bright but I didn't think the concept of "thing has to happen before thing to affect thing" was outside of your wheelhouse.

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1 hour ago, TWar said:

That's a fair opinion. I disagree but predicting into the future is super tricky. Who would have thought a young Kane or Vardy were going to be any good? Lets see what happens. I think both will have successful careers for the record, neither will likely be incredible but both are very talented. The only player I'd be willing to put my neck out and say is a superstar in the making and would be surprised if he isn't the next big thing in a few years is Livramento.

Fair point, although if Broja isn't a big big player I'd be surprised....but for every Shearer there's more than one Jeffers. Livramento - agreed, he looks superb.

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3 hours ago, Dman said:

Out of interest, and I don’t know the answer to this one, how many goals / assists does JWP have in open play? 

It seems a daft comparison given his ability over a free kick and the fact he takes every corner and penalty as well to boost his numbers. 
 

im also guessing that JWP has played significantly more games. 
 

The point wasn’t who’s the better player. It was that Diallo, with Romeu, compliments our game more than JWP. 
 

'Out of interest, and I don’t know the answer to this one, how many goals / assists does JWP have in open play?' 

I don't know how many goals and assists JWP has from open play either, but I do know it is significantly more than Diallo. I do know that he has 2 goals (from open play) from his 9 full England internationals to date; to go along with his 6 goals from 31 England U21 appearances.

'It seems a daft comparison given his ability over a free kick and the fact he takes every corner and penalty as well to boost his numbers.'

Why is it daft to acknowledge a skill one player has that another doesn't? Unless to fit an agenda/back up a preconceived idea? To my mind it is ridiculous to ignore such a fact. I mean, should we ignore headers as well? What about goals that just bounce in off a knee, thigh, or someone's arse? Do they not all count? Did we actually lose 2-1 to Newcastle? Maybe you should phone Steve Bruce and tell him they should have an additional 3 points. If we are ignoring goals from penalties and free-kicks, and maybe even headers, how many did Ricky Lambert really score for us? Apart from that, JWP has only recently become our first choice penalty taker. Seem to recall Ings taking more pens than him last season.....

'im also guessing that JWP has played significantly more games.'

You are right that James has played significantly more games than Ibra. More than double at just over 200 compared to 94. They have also primarily been at a far higher standard, with all the league matches being Premier League and not mainly French League 2.

'The point wasn’t who’s the better player. It was that Diallo, with Romeu, compliments our game more than JWP.'

Why wouldn't the question of who the better player is effect who compliments the team's overall performance more? Of course it matters how good a player is. Why do you think the top teams pay shit loads for the best players? Why don't they just save their money and buy lesser players who simply 'compliment' each other better? You are basing your belief that we are better with Diallo instead of JWP purely on Saturday's match against a depleted Leeds midfield. The same Leeds that JWP completely dominated the midfield against last season to the extent that Bielsa withdrew Kalvin Phillips at half-time because he had been firmly Prowsey's pocket for the first 45. JWP's all round skill set, ability with the ball from open play and set pieces, is a vital part of how we perform as a team. So, yes, his better ability in all aspects of the game compliments our team' performance more than Diallo's. How do you know that we wouldn't have won by a far bigger margin on Saturday had he been available for selection?

Moreover, why didn't you start this thread after the Sheffield United match? Is it because our midfield was utter shite in the first half with Diallo alongside Romeu?

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1 hour ago, Mosin said:

Not a bad summary really, nice opinion, ill share mine.

My opinion is this - that jwp passes forwards more than diallo and that he is the one that normally starts  attacks off so realise that jwp passes forward alot more than diallo, and so does OR.... 

 

You watch the game against leeds i assume yeah? how many times did you spot diallo passing forward? How many times, excluding free kicks and corners did he even get into the box? How many crosses into the box? 

Am sure TWar will know. 

Then ask your self the same question abot jwp and the city game... Compare the difficulty of each team, think of your expected result then remeber the result, then think of the chances that started from jwp eg putting liv free on the wing, n armstrong and so on. Then think carefully about the leeds game and focus on diallo and you will notice he didnt start a single attack, or put in a cross and only did 4 - 6 forward passes in the whole game and wasnt involved in any attacks at all. 

My opinion ofc. I have not fact checked it, but i cant picture my self being to far out on my numbers. 

 

I have been summoned! 

Here is a touch heatmap of both of them this season

image.thumb.png.06159c252517d629df05b4157db7409a.png

So it does look like JWP does take up more advanced positions than Diallo.

Ward-Prowse has a non-pen xG of 0.1 per game to Diallos 0. He also has an xA of 0.1 per game to Diallos 0 but a lot of that comes from corners.

As for your question regarding touches in advanced positions, JWP enjoys 19.8 touches per game in the final third to Diallo's 4.8. JWP gets 0.7 penalty area touches per game to Diallos 0.5 so neither really operate in the box so much.

As for ball progression @Mosin is bang on. While Diallo does progress the ball significantly more by dribbling (1.2 successful dribbles per 90 to JWP's 0.3) (NOTE Diallo is the only player in the prem to have 100% success rate in dribbles with over 7 attempts, which is pretty cool), JWP progresses the ball significantly more by passing with 3.9 passes into the final third to Diallos 3.0. JWP also progresses the ball an average 230 yards per game to Diallo's 142. Also massive acknowledgement to Salisu who not only is an absolute beast in defence but leads our team in both passing distance (351) and pass success (84.1%) with JWP and Diallo as 79.5% and 83% respectively (6th and 4th respectively). What a legend.

Crosses, JWP gets 7.0 crosses per game with 1.1 successful (seems low but cross success rate is usually under 20%), Diallo has 0, literally hasn't crossed the ball yet this season. Also, finally JWP makes 1.4 chances per 90 to Diallos 0.2.

With Diallos excellent dribbling and actually very good defensive numbers it would be nice to see if we could pair Diallo and JWP, maybe possible with a better, faster CB behind them in Salisu who needs less cover. I think losing JWP loses us a lot though unfortunately. He is only behind Redmond and Stuart Armstrong for chance creation per 90 in our team this season.

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23 minutes ago, Mosin said:

Not a bad summary really, nice opinion, ill share mine.

My opinion is this - that jwp passes forwards more than diallo and that he is the one that normally starts  attacks off so realise that jwp passes forward alot more than diallo, and so does OR.... 

 

You watch the game against leeds i assume yeah? how many times did you spot diallo passing forward? How many times, excluding free kicks and corners did he even get into the box? How many crosses into the box? 

Am sure TWar will know. 

Then ask your self the same question abot jwp and the city game... Compare the difficulty of each team, think of your expected result then remeber the result, then think of the chances that started from jwp eg putting liv free on the wing, n armstrong and so on. Then think carefully about the leeds game and focus on diallo and you will notice he didnt start a single attack, or put in a cross and only did 4 - 6 forward passes in the whole game and wasnt involved in any attacks at all

My opinion ofc. I have not fact checked it, but i cant picture my self being to far out on my numbers. 

 

You quite clearly didn't fact check it, because it was Diallo who won the ball in our own box and passed it to Moussa who then played the through ball for Redmond to set up Broja to score.

You need to take your Prowse-tinted specs off for once. We all know the extreme lengths you will go to to defend/praise JWP, but you're being incredibly disingenuous towards Diallo in this post, who had a very good game.

 

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It's not the first time that James has started the season slowly but he always gets better as it progresses and let's not forget that he was POTS last year.
The most disappointing aspect has been his corners but I wouldn't say that his overall play has been poor, just a bit below par (as he loves his golf!)

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1 minute ago, CAH61 said:

It's not the first time that James has started the season slowly but he always gets better as it progresses and let's not forget that he was POTS last year.
The most disappointing aspect has been his corners but I wouldn't say that his overall play has been poor, just a bit below par (as he loves his golf!)

Yeah I've been disappointed with the corners, we miss Vestergaard for sure but I think we do too many "tricky" corners where we try and get a flick on, or put it along the ground for some reason. Just drop it in the danger zone and let the bigger lads attack it! 

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24 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

You quite clearly didn't fact check it, because it was Diallo who won the ball in our own box and passed it to Moussa who then played the through ball for Redmond to set up Broja to score.

You need to take your Prowse-tinted specs off for once. We all know the extreme lengths you will go to to defend/praise JWP, but you're being incredibly disingenuous towards Diallo in this post, who had a very good game.

 

You are correct that it was Diallo who won the ball and passed it to Moussa for the breakaway which led to our goal. Pretty sure that pass was sideways though. Which, of course, it needed to be and was the right thing to do. But isn't playing the best option of pass, when it is a sideways one, what people are complaining about Prowsey doing? Whilst ignoring the fact that he does actually make far more forward passes than Diallo per match?

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14 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

You quite clearly didn't fact check it, because it was Diallo who won the ball in our own box and passed it to Moussa who then played the through ball for Redmond to set up Broja to score.

You need to take your Prowse-tinted specs off for once. We all know the extreme lengths you will go to to defend/praise JWP, but you're being incredibly disingenuous towards Diallo in this post, who had a very good game.

 

It was clearly a block ( he is after all facing towards the corner flag unaware djen is as he didnt look once to see if any one was behind him coming in for a good few secs before his block) which nicely dropped to djen who was 3 yard away inside are penalty area, who then did a fine little run and beautiful pass to redders who then set up broja for a very easy finish.  Djenepo pass created the opportunity for redders to assist the goal, not diallo. 

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12 minutes ago, Mosin said:

It was clearly a block ( he is after all facing towards the corner flag unaware djen is as he didnt look once to see if any one was behind him coming in for a good few secs before his block) which nicely dropped to djen who was 3 yard away inside are penalty area, who then did a fine little run and beautiful pass to redders who then set up broja for a very easy finish.  Djenepo pass created the opportunity for redders to assist the goal, not diallo. 

Again, being totally disingenuous and downplaying his contribution. 

Suggest you watch the replay again. It was a very quick bit of thinking to win the ball and pass it to Moussa all in one movement.

16 minutes ago, Minsk said:

You are correct that it was Diallo who won the ball and passed it to Moussa for the breakaway which led to our goal. Pretty sure that pass was sideways though. Which, of course, it needed to be and was the right thing to do. But isn't playing the best option of pass, when it is a sideways one, what people are complaining about Prowsey doing? Whilst ignoring the fact that he does actually make far more forward passes than Diallo per match?

Fair points, and you certainly won't catch me bashing JWP for passing sideways if that is the best option available, but I was responding to Mosin's assertions that Diallo "didn't start a single attack" and "wasn't involved in any attacks at all", which is clearly bollocks.

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We probably are slightly better without JWP in so far as he doesn't always move the ball as fast as some other players, but we are weaker when it comes to set-pieces etc. having said that though it seems unfair to base this on the last game. We came up against a very poor weakened Leeds side who let's face it would have struggled against most teams in the league.  Let's see what happens in the next few games & then we would have a better view of how we are playing & whether or not we're better/worse with or without him.

Still Ralph out by the way, 1 decent result against a terrible team doesn't mean he's the messiah again.

 

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33 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Again, being totally disingenuous and downplaying his contribution. 

Suggest you watch the replay again. It was a very quick bit of thinking to win the ball and pass it to Moussa all in one movement.

I love Diallo, superb footballer, but I think you are perhaps being a bit generous here. Looks to me like he gets a tackle in due to a loose touch and it falls to Djenepo fortuitously. Even if it was deliberately a pass, I think calling it "involved in the attack" is a little generous too. It was a mostly sideways 5 yard pass by his own box, the attack was made by Djenepo's running and passing and then Redmond. You could say his solid defensive work and positioning led to an opportunity for Djenepo to attack, and that would be accurate, but I wouldn't use it as an example of Diallo being involved in our attacking game personally. When the pass occurs they are both in their own box and that's the last thing Diallo does towards the attack.

image.png.15d5e6f4038309abc29d0b40ca4cefcf.png

Edited by TWar
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1 hour ago, TWar said:

I have been summoned! 

Here is a touch heatmap of both of them this season

image.thumb.png.06159c252517d629df05b4157db7409a.png

So it does look like JWP does take up more advanced positions than Diallo.

Ward-Prowse has a non-pen xG of 0.1 per game to Diallos 0. He also has an xA of 0.1 per game to Diallos 0 but a lot of that comes from corners.

As for your question regarding touches in advanced positions, JWP enjoys 19.8 touches per game in the final third to Diallo's 4.8. JWP gets 0.7 penalty area touches per game to Diallos 0.5 so neither really operate in the box so much.

As for ball progression @Mosin is bang on. While Diallo does progress the ball significantly more by dribbling (1.2 successful dribbles per 90 to JWP's 0.3) (NOTE Diallo is the only player in the prem to have 100% success rate in dribbles with over 7 attempts, which is pretty cool), JWP progresses the ball significantly more by passing with 3.9 passes into the final third to Diallos 3.0. JWP also progresses the ball an average 230 yards per game to Diallo's 142. Also massive acknowledgement to Salisu who not only is an absolute beast in defence but leads our team in both passing distance (351) and pass success (84.1%) with JWP and Diallo as 79.5% and 83% respectively (6th and 4th respectively). What a legend.

Crosses, JWP gets 7.0 crosses per game with 1.1 successful (seems low but cross success rate is usually under 20%), Diallo has 0, literally hasn't crossed the ball yet this season. Also, finally JWP makes 1.4 chances per 90 to Diallos 0.2.

 

What a load of old Pony. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of old Pony. 
 

 

Is it not boring for you to constantly point out you don't enjoy statistical analysis?

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1 hour ago, TWar said:

Yeah I've been disappointed with the corners, we miss Vestergaard for sure but I think we do too many "tricky" corners where we try and get a flick on, or put it along the ground for some reason. Just drop it in the danger zone and let the bigger lads attack it! 

Exactly, you’re starting to learn something. Get it in the fucking mixer. Is there an XJ, Pd or Uv for that? 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Exactly….Get it in the fucking mixer. Is there an XJ, Pd or Uv for that? 

Is there statistical analysis to analyse the success rate of corners depending on their placement? Yes. Yes of course there is.

Edited by TWar
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5 minutes ago, TWar said:

I love Diallo, superb footballer, but I think you are perhaps being a bit generous here. Looks to me like he gets a tackle in due to a loose touch and it falls to Djenepo fortuitously. Even if it was deliberately a pass, I think calling it "involved in the attack" is a little generous too. It was a mostly sideways 5 yard pass by his own box, the attack was made by Djenepo's running and passing and then Redmond. You could say his solid defensive work and positioning led to an opportunity for Djenepo to attack, and that would be accurate, but I wouldn't use it as an example of Diallo being involved in our attacking game personally. When the pass occurs they are both in their own box and that's the last thing Diallo does towards the attack.

image.png.15d5e6f4038309abc29d0b40ca4cefcf.png

I guess only Ibrahima himself knows whether or not it was deliberate (and of course he would say it was), but I'm inclined to believe it was. He can clearly see Djenepo is there and available to receive the ball, and very quickly knocked it to him when the Leeds player's touch was poor. If he was just trying to block and clear the ball, I'm pretty sure he would have hit it harder upfield or out of play for a throw to be sure that another Leeds player didn't pick up the loose ball and recycle it.

Claiming he wasn't involved in the attack, when he was literally the first Saints player to touch the ball in the move that led to our only goal, is being unduly harsh on him.

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6 minutes ago, Golac's Iron Gonads said:

Christ, a simple question whether we're better without JWP and I had to scroll past post after post about whether Broja scored a 'tap-in' now we're going to be overwhelmed with a discussion about if something was a block or a tackle FFS.

What we desperately need is a "yawn" emoji option!

Maybe only then will those who are boring the rest of us shitless realise we are not sitting here with baited breath waiting for them to pass judgement on obscure technicalities.

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In Summary:

For this one game, we didn't miss JWP and performed well. Romeu and Diallo operated as a good and balanced midfield, both making the blocks, tackles and interceptions expected of them and an average amount of progressive passes. Diallo looks like a good midfielder who we are lucky to have as our first back-up. He still has more chances before JWP returns to prove that he shouldn't automatically take Diallo's spot, but I would expect JWP to return to the first 11 as one of our best players. JWP is our captain and a long-serving player whose attitude and ability should mean he is a first choice midfielder.  

Regarding Broja, he looks a real talent, who deserves a run in the team given he will now be full of confidence. I would like him partnered with either Armstrong or Adams though. Armstrong looks like a natural finisher, who will get a decent return of goals in almost any team. Again, like the midfielders, we are in a good position where we have 3 genuine options for 2 positions. 

Regarding Diallo's block, he does well to be back in position, and looks as though he means the ball to go to Djenepo. That is a good defensive action, that regains controlled possession. Djenepo then converts that into a counter-attack with his movement before releasing Redmond excellently, who in turn produces good pace and movement.

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I'm probably not going to add much to the sum of insight on this thread but, for what it's worth...

I disagree with @Dman's opening premise.  JWP hasn't brought his A game this season yet, but he's still one of the first names on the team sheet for me based on his form over the last couple of seasons.  The criticism of him on this thread about slowing things down is, I think, about three years out of date.  So I think we are a better team with him in it.  Having said that I do like Diallo and he has potential to grow into a fine Kante-style midfielder.  As many have said, it's great we have 3 decent players for those two positions, as well as the option of starting or, more likely, finishing games with all 3 on the pitch.

Not sure how the Broja v Armstrong debate got going (and can't be arsed to look back) but I simply don't think we have anywhere near enough data on either of them to make a decent judgement.  And by data I mean actual experience of watching them in our kit.  So how people have managed to dig themselves into such deep trenches over this is beyond me.  It feels like the actual debate is less important than point-scoring, dick-waving and generally being unpleasant to fellow Saints fans (something I can't for the life of me understand).   As usual though there is debate to be had in amongst all the detritus.  For my money, based on what little I have seen, Broja has something about him and, being so young, his potential is huge.  It's a shame we couldn't sign him - my worry is he becomes undroppable this season, then leaves, and we are left with disgruntled/underdeveloped forwards for next year.  So I want to make sure we give Armstrong (and Adams who is still improving over the long term) as much chance as possible to be successful here.  What I've seen of Armstrong gives me hope that he can fill the void left by Ings (though I don't think he is in the same class). As has been said elsewhere, our biggest issue this season so far has been creating quality chances - if we can fix that I would back Armstrong and Broja (and Adams too) to score their fair share. 

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3 hours ago, TWar said:

I have been summoned! 

Here is a touch heatmap of both of them this season

image.thumb.png.06159c252517d629df05b4157db7409a.png

So it does look like JWP does take up more advanced positions than Diallo.

Ward-Prowse has a non-pen xG of 0.1 per game to Diallos 0. He also has an xA of 0.1 per game to Diallos 0 but a lot of that comes from corners.

As for your question regarding touches in advanced positions, JWP enjoys 19.8 touches per game in the final third to Diallo's 4.8. JWP gets 0.7 penalty area touches per game to Diallos 0.5 so neither really operate in the box so much.

As for ball progression @Mosin is bang on. While Diallo does progress the ball significantly more by dribbling (1.2 successful dribbles per 90 to JWP's 0.3) (NOTE Diallo is the only player in the prem to have 100% success rate in dribbles with over 7 attempts, which is pretty cool), JWP progresses the ball significantly more by passing with 3.9 passes into the final third to Diallos 3.0. JWP also progresses the ball an average 230 yards per game to Diallo's 142. Also massive acknowledgement to Salisu who not only is an absolute beast in defence but leads our team in both passing distance (351) and pass success (84.1%) with JWP and Diallo as 79.5% and 83% respectively (6th and 4th respectively). What a legend.

Crosses, JWP gets 7.0 crosses per game with 1.1 successful (seems low but cross success rate is usually under 20%), Diallo has 0, literally hasn't crossed the ball yet this season. Also, finally JWP makes 1.4 chances per 90 to Diallos 0.2.

With Diallos excellent dribbling and actually very good defensive numbers it would be nice to see if we could pair Diallo and JWP, maybe possible with a better, faster CB behind them in Salisu who needs less cover. I think losing JWP loses us a lot though unfortunately. He is only behind Redmond and Stuart Armstrong for chance creation per 90 in our team this season.

Any chance of bullet points next time?

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3 hours ago, TWar said:

Is it not boring for you to constantly point out you don't enjoy statistical analysis?

All views should be respected but because he doesn’t understand it and it requires thinking he just says "pony" as he has nothing constructive to say 

Edited by Chapel End
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JWP is one of our best players, but Diallo has stepped up.

Why don't we identify our BEST 11 players and find a way to get them on pitch at the same time?

------------McCarthy-------------

KWP--Bednarek--Salisu-- Perraud

--------Romeo------Diallo--------

Livramento---S.Armstrong----JWP

---------------Broja---------------

Edited by SaintTex
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