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Watford 0-1 Saints - Match Thread


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5 minutes ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

I keep seeing this, the chealsea loaner, Broga over our own strikers? I can see he is a special tallented kid, but each time he plays he is taking time away from the strikers we have brought and need to get scoring. I am all for playing the kid every now and then, but to bench our other strikers could be detrimental to the team long term. We can win without him. I don't know if Broga will ever be our player permanently, would love it to happen,  but for now he cannot block the path of our permanent strikers who need to gain  their form and confidence.  I love the pressure he has put on them and I hope he will be a Saints signing one day.........

Saved me the typing - cheers

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10 minutes ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

I keep seeing this, the chealsea loaner, Broga over our own strikers? I can see he is a special tallented kid, but each time he plays he is taking time away from the strikers we have brought and need to get scoring. I am all for playing the kid every now and then, but to bench our other strikers could be detrimental to the team long term. We can win without him. I don't know if Broga will ever be our player permanently, would love it to happen,  but for now he cannot block the path of our permanent strikers who need to gain  their form and confidence.  I love the pressure he has put on them and I hope he will be a Saints signing one day.........

I get this argument but I don't agree with it. If he's the best striker in the squad he should be playing. End of.

Reducing our chances of getting points by leaving our best goalscorer out cos he's only on loan is completely irrational.

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18 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

I get this argument but I don't agree with it. If he's the best striker in the squad he should be playing. End of.

Reducing our chances of getting points by leaving our best goalscorer out cos he's only on loan is completely irrational.

It's not completely irrational. Plenty won't agree with it but there is a clear rationale behind it. Much like us selling Ings - he's a better player than all three of them but selling him was not irrational. 

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Well perhaps we should try playing the three of them together. Broja in centre, Adams left, Armstrong on right.Adeams and Armstrong can always switch positions as they seem able to manage.

I agree we need to play our best two players every game. But we also know that with games coming so quickly players may need a rest at times. Especially if we get a good cup run going.

 

 

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Have just watched Sky's full recording of the match.   I thought Romeo was excellent and Salusi was not far behind. Redmond put in the hard yards. It took the taters a long tie to realise what a great save Macarthy had made.  Good blend of slick passing and direct long balla

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18 minutes ago, SFC Forever said:

Well perhaps we should try playing the three of them together. Broja in centre, Adams left, Armstrong on right.Adeams and Armstrong can always switch positions as they seem able to manage.

I agree we need to play our best two players every game. But we also know that with games coming so quickly players may need a rest at times. Especially if we get a good cup run going.

 

 

That would be interesting. A 4-3-3 with a midfield of Diallo-Romeu-JWP behind a front 3 of Arma-Broja-Che. Given his recent performances though, I feel it would work better with Redders vice Che. That would also give more options to change formation mid match with changing personnel. 

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58 minutes ago, UpweySaint said:

It's not completely irrational. Plenty won't agree with it but there is a clear rationale behind it. Much like us selling Ings - he's a better player than all three of them but selling him was not irrational. 

It may not be irrational but it is pretty stupid not to play Broja if he is scoring goals and Armstrong is not.

 

It took Adams quite a time to score in the PL and he is hardly prolific but he has proved he can score ten or so goals a season Armstrong as yet has not but of course may well do so in the future.

 

We need to score more goals as we should have scored more yesterday and if Ralph is confident Broja will score goals I fully expect him to play

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1 hour ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

I keep seeing this, the chealsea loaner, Broga over our own strikers? I can see he is a special tallented kid, but each time he plays he is taking time away from the strikers we have brought and need to get scoring. I am all for playing the kid every now and then, but to bench our other strikers could be detrimental to the team long term. We can win without him. I don't know if Broga will ever be our player permanently, would love it to happen,  but for now he cannot block the path of our permanent strikers who need to gain  their form and confidence.  I love the pressure he has put on them and I hope he will be a Saints signing one day.........

if he was here a month, I'd agree, but he is here for an entire season. Are you really worried about our 2022/23 or 2023/24 season?  They are all part of our squad. All Saints players.

How they are contracted and for how long is not our concern. Come April and we are safe, then picking players that will be here next season makes sense, but let's get safe first shall we?

He isn't actually blocking their path long term. He is the better choice at this time.

If he doesn't sign in the summer then their path will become clear again. By then Armstrong will have a Prem season under his belt, all be it maybe not 38 starts and Che has had three seasons to make the position his own - its up to him to force the managers hand.

Edited by Chez
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2 hours ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

I keep seeing this, the chealsea loaner, Broga over our own strikers? I can see he is a special tallented kid, but each time he plays he is taking time away from the strikers we have brought and need to get scoring. I am all for playing the kid every now and then, but to bench our other strikers could be detrimental to the team long term. We can win without him. I don't know if Broga will ever be our player permanently, would love it to happen,  but for now he cannot block the path of our permanent strikers who need to gain  their form and confidence.  I love the pressure he has put on them and I hope he will be a Saints signing one day.........

Totally disagree I'm afraid

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2 hours ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

I keep seeing this, the chealsea loaner, Broga over our own strikers? I can see he is a special tallented kid, but each time he plays he is taking time away from the strikers we have brought and need to get scoring. I am all for playing the kid every now and then, but to bench our other strikers could be detrimental to the team long term. We can win without him. I don't know if Broga will ever be our player permanently, would love it to happen,  but for now he cannot block the path of our permanent strikers who need to gain  their form and confidence.  I love the pressure he has put on them and I hope he will be a Saints signing one day.........

Sure I used to think like this, but he's our top goalscorer alongside Elyounoussi with 4 goals in all competitions, despite playing fewer games than Adams and Armstrong. I like Adams and Armstrong but there's no point playing them in a slow slide to potential relegation if we have someone better at putting the ball in the net. 

 

Besides, we all know how Chelsea treat the majority of their youngsters, so keeping Broja sweet and playing him may benefit us in the long term if Chelsea ever decide they have no place for him there. I know they rate him highly, hence no sell on clause, but then I really rated Tammy Abraham and they decided he had no future there over Werner. OK, we may not be able to afford him permanently but that means he'll have been a success here.

 

Armstrong I feel will some good eventually, and Adams works hard and has a decent pass on him but will never be a prolific goalscorer, so it's good to have a very good third option up top this year. With Tella and even Long on the books, we have good competition in attack this season. With our new improved defence there's no reason why we shouldn't make strides up the table this season.

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3 hours ago, bpsaint said:

Can’t see anything of note, other than possibly Nelly Gao sat next to Martin Semmens?

Nelly disappeared for ages but is now back.

Not sure if she went home because of covid or something but she was a pretty permanent member of staff around St Mary's for quite a while after Gao took over.

Maybe her reappearance means something is going on behind the scenes? That's pure speculation on my part though.

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3 hours ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

I keep seeing this, the chealsea loaner, Broga over our own strikers? I can see he is a special tallented kid, but each time he plays he is taking time away from the strikers we have brought and need to get scoring. I am all for playing the kid every now and then, but to bench our other strikers could be detrimental to the team long term. We can win without him. I don't know if Broga will ever be our player permanently, would love it to happen,  but for now he cannot block the path of our permanent strikers who need to gain  their form and confidence.  I love the pressure he has put on them and I hope he will be a Saints signing one day.........

Both you and Teddeer have a point, but as soon as our expensive strike pair begin scoring more goals that Broja, they will start first and he will be on the bench.

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Things are really starting to come together and we look to be getting back to the form of a year ago. 4-0 would not have flattered us yesterday but the one goal we did score was a moment of real quality from Che. He is a form player so hopefully we will see him go on a good run of scoring. The balance looked a lot better with KWP giving their RB nightmares and Tino doing the same on our right.
I think we are near enough to the best starting XI with only Stuey coming in on the right for Mo El and of course Broja will be in the mix too when he is fit.
I think that AA will continue to get in great positions and will start putting them away and it would be nice to have 3 strikers scoring regularly.

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On 30/10/2021 at 13:26, Billy the Kidd said:

Yeah he was great, has been all season. Really hoping he gets a contract extension with a 10 year deal. 

he reads the game so well for someone so young. How old was VVD when he joined us?

hate to be a downer, but contracts don't matter much.. VVD left within a year of signing a 6 year extension.

But yeah, Salisu has been all that and more!!!! a year ago, we had serious questions if his signing was a big mistake.

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6 hours ago, SaintTex said:

hate to be a downer, but contracts don't matter much.. VVD left within a year of signing a 6 year extension.

But yeah, Salisu has been all that and more!!!! a year ago, we had serious questions if his signing was a big mistake.

Not a downer for me, my Q was purely transfer related, in obtaining the maximum funds. 

No way Salisu will be with us long term. 

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On 31/10/2021 at 12:49, whelk said:

Yep indeed another stat trotted out as significant. “Not since blah blah..had less shots on target…” wow like means anything

the old boys hate it but xG really is the best stat to define performance even though hard to fathom how they conclude the numbers on occasions

Broja is doing rather well on this front, he has both the best xG per 90 (0.51) and the best overperformance of xG per 90 (0.23). Armstrong and Adams have an xG of 0.34 and 0.2 respectively so combined their xG is about that of Broja. Armstrong is underperforming xG by 0.21 whereas Adams is performing basically bang on xG.

One thing worth noting is Broja is not at all creative (with regards to assists), with an xA of 0.02 per 90. With Adams and Armstrong racking up 0.2 and 0.15 xA per 90 respectively.

The upshot of this is Broja gets the most chances and is most clinical but doesn't really make chances. Armstrong and Adams are a lot better providers but less clinical and receive less chances. Redmond is more creative than both Armstrong and Adams (0.29 xA/90) but gets very few chances (0.17xG/90) and is finishing about as poorly as Armstrong (- 0.18 G-xG/90).

My take away from this is Broja requires Redmond to play with him as he doesn't make enough so he needs a pure creator. The combination of Redmond + Broja is pretty level on most stats to Armstrong + Adams. Mixing and matching probably wouldn't work as Broja doesn't contribute creatively.

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20 hours ago, TWar said:

Broja is doing rather well on this front, he has both the best xG per 90 (0.51) and the best overperformance of xG per 90 (0.23). Armstrong and Adams have an xG of 0.34 and 0.2 respectively so combined their xG is about that of Broja. Armstrong is underperforming xG by 0.21 whereas Adams is performing basically bang on xG.

One thing worth noting is Broja is not at all creative (with regards to assists), with an xA of 0.02 per 90. With Adams and Armstrong racking up 0.2 and 0.15 xA per 90 respectively.

The upshot of this is Broja gets the most chances and is most clinical but doesn't really make chances. Armstrong and Adams are a lot better providers but less clinical and receive less chances. Redmond is more creative than both Armstrong and Adams (0.29 xA/90) but gets very few chances (0.17xG/90) and is finishing about as poorly as Armstrong (- 0.18 G-xG/90).

My take away from this is Broja requires Redmond to play with him as he doesn't make enough so he needs a pure creator. The combination of Redmond + Broja is pretty level on most stats to Armstrong + Adams. Mixing and matching probably wouldn't work as Broja doesn't contribute creatively.

Can you run that by me again.

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7 minutes ago, manji said:

Can you run that by me again.

Absolutely. 

  • So Broja is an excellent finisher, like the best in our team by a good margin. He, however, doesn't make a lot of chances for himself or make a lot of chances for others. In another thread I described this as being a "poacher" to mixed reception.
  • You can accurately say he is more a "finisher" than a creator or a one man force.
  • Adams and Armstrong are both reasonably good creators and OK at being in the right spot. Adams is average at putting the ball away, Armstrong less so.
  • Redmond is an excellent creator but doesn't score so much and is rarely in a position to do so
  • If one played one of Armstrong/Che with Broja then you might not see many goals as there won't be much creativity.

This is obviously a very simplified view as if we have a more creative midfield (eg Diallo + JWP), a more creative attacking mid (Stu comes back), and/or a more creative set of fullbacks then less pressure would be on the forwards to create and then maybe we could see something like Broja and Armstrong as a pair. Or we could change our formation a bit!

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12 minutes ago, TWar said:

Absolutely. 

  • So Broja is an excellent finisher, like the best in our team by a good margin. He, however, doesn't make a lot of chances for himself or make a lot of chances for others. In another thread I described this as being a "poacher" to mixed reception.
  • You can accurately say he is more a "finisher" than a creator or a one man force.
  • Adams and Armstrong are both reasonably good creators and OK at being in the right spot. Adams is average at putting the ball away, Armstrong less so.
  • Redmond is an excellent creator but doesn't score so much and is rarely in a position to do so
  • If one played one of Armstrong/Che with Broja then you might not see many goals as there won't be much creativity.

This is obviously a very simplified view as if we have a more creative midfield (eg Diallo + JWP), a more creative attacking mid (Stu comes back), and/or a more creative set of fullbacks then less pressure would be on the forwards to create and then maybe we could see something like Broja and Armstrong as a pair. Or we could change our formation a bit!

Thanks too many numbers for me 👍

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On 01/11/2021 at 05:45, Billy the Kidd said:

Not a downer for me, my Q was purely transfer related, in obtaining the maximum funds. 

No way Salisu will be with us long term. 

A mix of cynicism and despair.

Never rule out the possibility that some players may actually love being here and playing for Ralph. We were told early on that Mohammed Salisu was a sensitive and shy lad not helped by being in a completely strange environment and culture. There seems to have been some sort of transformation in his confidence, no doubt helped by the likes of Kelvin Davies. Young players need the right sort of guidance and support during their development and may actually see the people offering that as part of their 'family' and these bonds might be stronger than one might realise. There is clearly a comradely buzz around the club at the moment and a sense of togetherness.

If nothing else changes and solid progress is made then I do not see him being in a hurry to leave, expect to see him in a Saints shirt for several years ahead.

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35 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

A mix of cynicism and despair.

Never rule out the possibility that some players may actually love being here and playing for Ralph. We were told early on that Mohammed Salisu was a sensitive and shy lad not helped by being in a completely strange environment and culture. There seems to have been some sort of transformation in his confidence, no doubt helped by the likes of Kelvin Davies. Young players need the right sort of guidance and support during their development and may actually see the people offering that as part of their 'family' and these bonds might be stronger than one might realise. There is clearly a comradely buzz around the club at the moment and a sense of togetherness.

If nothing else changes and solid progress is made then I do not see him being in a hurry to leave, expect to see him in a Saints shirt for several years ahead.

Yeah that is a great way to look at it, and i hope you are correct. The main trouble though with this view imo, is this is not our business model, without investment we need to sell players like Salisu and go find the next gem, develop them, and move them on.

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38 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

A mix of cynicism and despair.

Never rule out the possibility that some players may actually love being here and playing for Ralph. We were told early on that Mohammed Salisu was a sensitive and shy lad not helped by being in a completely strange environment and culture. There seems to have been some sort of transformation in his confidence, no doubt helped by the likes of Kelvin Davies. Young players need the right sort of guidance and support during their development and may actually see the people offering that as part of their 'family' and these bonds might be stronger than one might realise. There is clearly a comradely buzz around the club at the moment and a sense of togetherness.

If nothing else changes and solid progress is made then I do not see him being in a hurry to leave, expect to see him in a Saints shirt for several years ahead.

I really hope that is true. But the big six teams will soon be turning his head. And who would blame him for taking the opportunity to earn even more money to support his famiiy? I am resigned to two seasons being a decent tour of duty with us for any player of real quality

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