Should Saints sack Tonda?

[Scully]

I'm in favour of keeping him. The spying was a terrible idea and a badly executed one but the punishment has been disproportionate and the media have blown the whole thing up bigger than it needed to be. 

[Morse]

He's been successful (apart from the amateurish espionage) IF he still commandes the backing of the players I think he should stay. Sacking him would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Nobody beyond Saints fans will remember this spying in 6 months time.

[Toussaint]

3 hours ago, trousers said:

Yeah, fair point... I guess 'coercion' is indeed a potential differential here... Damn...! 

If Salt was coerced and bullied to the extent he claims, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that there may have been a potential “plea bargain” or “saving one’s own arse” that came into play here. 

[Wade Garrett]

24 minutes ago, saint michael said:

Hackney not play was an advantage but planning for him playing or not playing should have been standard stuff and available from previous games they played with and without. Didn’t need spying to confirm this 

Why the fuck did that prick send the lad up there then!

[saint michael]

5 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Why the fuck did that prick send the lad up there then!

Exactly. I think it’s ridiculous too.  Use data by all means but if he couldn’t work out what they would do with or without says more about him. 

[Saint Billy]

I voted for Tonda to be sacked but that is based on the whole thing starting and ending with Tonda. If it comes to light that it started above Tonda then that changes things.

[beatlesaint]

9 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

I voted for Tonda to be sacked but that is based on the whole thing starting and ending with Tonda. If it comes to light that it started above Tonda then that changes things.

Well you can be sure it wasn’t Tonda who signed off his expenses claims……

[LegalEagle]

If the FA ban him for say 6 months or more, or indeed any ban save for about 14 days, surely the club will not pack him off somewhere for a placement elsewhere until his ban is over? This all ends of course if the players want shot of him which begs the question that as he’s still here and I’m assuming the players’ opinions have been collected, there must be a decent rump of the squad who are standing by him. I know that THB posted that piccie yesterday of the bottle and his pint, and in itself that was quite simple stuff, you don’t do that if you do hate the club and its manager and you want out now.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Because of his actions, a decent side will be broken up, we lost the chance of promotion & could face further charges & scrutiny. It’s unbelievable people think he should keep his job after that monumental mistake.
 

Unlike Bielsa he didn’t take accountability for this from the off. It looks like he lied by pretending he thought it wasn’t illegal. Why did he think Salt objected to doing it against Ipswich, because he had a haircut that day he didn’t want to miss? 

Edited 5 hours ago by Lord Duckhunter

[saint michael]

Forgive if already been posted but there is a very good article in the Times today on him and about spying on teams and a bit more about who he is and his background. As Crab lungs says it will be useful to hear him before he is hung out to dry. Not saying it changes views but may help with the emotional bit of the effect of what he has done. 
 

I cant post the article as was shared by a friend and supporter of another club who is seething by the way the saints have been treated. 

[DellBlockH]

37 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Because of his actions, a decent side will be broken up, we lost the chance of promotion & could face further charges & scrutiny. It’s unbelievable people think he should keep his job after that monumental mistake.
 

Unlike Bielsa he didn’t take accountability for this from the off. It looks like he lied by pretending he thought it wasn’t illegal. Why did he think Salt objected to doing it against Ipswich, because he had a haircut that day he didn’t want to miss? 

Because of his actions, we moved from relegation fodder to the play offs. The decent side only came into existence when he took over. Before that, it was a collection of players who either didn’t know what was required or couldn't be arsed to do it. 

Some players will leave, but some players would have left anyway had we finished mid-table or, worse, got relegated. The only chance we had of keeping our best players was to get promoted and we looked nowhere near doing that halfway through the season.

Edited 4 hours ago by DellBlockH

[Cuddles]

I hope someone is still keeping the Tonda bus maintained. I want to see it fired back up in a couple of months. With bigger wheels and less professional recording equipment.

[AlexLaw76]

13 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

Because of his actions, we moved from relegation fodder to the play offs. The decent side only came into existence when he took over. Before that, it was a collection of players who either didn’t know what was required or couldn't be arsed to do it. 

Some players will leave, but some players would have left anyway had we finished mid-table or, worse, got relegated. The only chance we had of keeping our best players was to get promoted and we looked nowhere near doing that halfway through the season.

Any competent manager would have had our squad in the mix for promotion 

 

[Toadhall Saint]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Any competent manager would have had our squad in the mix for promotion 

 

🎣 

[Wade Garrett]

21 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

Because of his actions, we moved from relegation fodder to the play offs. The decent side only came into existence when he took over. Before that, it was a collection of players who either didn’t know what was required or couldn't be arsed to do it. 

Some players will leave, but some players would have left anyway had we finished mid-table or, worse, got relegated. The only chance we had of keeping our best players was to get promoted and we looked nowhere near doing that halfway through the season.

Before that we were managed by an idiot who didn’t know his arse from his elbow.  Half the supporters would have done a better job than Will fucking Still just by going 4 at the back.

[AlexLaw76]

4 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Before that we were managed by an idiot who didn’t know his arse from his elbow.  Half the supporters would have done a better job than Will fucking Still just by going 4 at the back.

Any idiot could see we needed to ditch 3 at the back. The results did not change much with To da whilst he was persisting with that

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Because of his actions, a decent side will be broken up, we lost the chance of promotion & could face further charges & scrutiny. It’s unbelievable people think he should keep his job after that monumental mistake.
 

Unlike Bielsa he didn’t take accountability for this from the off. It looks like he lied by pretending he thought it wasn’t illegal. Why did he think Salt objected to doing it against Ipswich, because he had a haircut that day he didn’t want to miss? 

Thanks to Parsons fessing up like a naughty schoolgirl the club had no choice but to batten down the hatches and attempt to control what was an utter shitshow. Tonda was part of it yes, but he’s no child killer FFS. Accountability starts at the top.

[Saint Fan CaM]

13 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Before that we were managed by an idiot who didn’t know his arse from his elbow.  Half the supporters would have done a better job than Will fucking Still just by going 4 at the back.

I think it’s easy to trivialise the turnaround - it’s not as simple as going to a back four. We were in a fucking tailspin with the pilot in a coma - make no mistake. He turned things around both in terms of personnel and tactics. Credit where credits due.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Saint Fan CaM said:

I think it’s easy to trivialise the turnaround - it’s not as simple as going to a back four. We were in a fucking tailspin with the pilot in a coma - make no mistake. He turned things around both in terms of personnel and tactics. Credit where credits due.

Back 4, give Peretz and Larin plus spying every other week.

Will Still would have loved that 

[sfc4prem]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Back 4, give Peretz and Larin plus spying every other week.

Will Still would have loved that 

Revisionism right there. Still couldn't manage a cup of tea.

Edited 2 hours ago by sfc4prem
I felt my original comment was perhaps a bit rude to poor old Alex.

[washsaint]

39 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Back 4, give Peretz and Larin plus spying every other week.

Will Still would have loved that 

You really are thick one aren't you?  Results didn't improve until he ditched 5 at the back.....well he won 6 of his first 7 with 5 at the back.

Tonda is an excellent manager and should be headng for the top, this incident not withstanding.

With the mass hysteria around 'spygate' anyone would think Saints had bribed refs, injured other players on purpose or were making bets on the games.

In the great scheme of things what he and Saints did was stupid but minor.

This whole thing has been blown out of all proportion.  This idiocy and holier than thou approach realy started during COVID times and has remained ever since.  It's really quit pathetic.

[CanadaSaint]

1 hour ago, LegalEagle said:

If the FA ban him for say 6 months or more, or indeed any ban save for about 14 days, surely the club will not pack him off somewhere for a placement elsewhere until his ban is over? This all ends of course if the players want shot of him which begs the question that as he’s still here and I’m assuming the players’ opinions have been collected, there must be a decent rump of the squad who are standing by him. I know that THB posted that piccie yesterday of the bottle and his pint, and in itself that was quite simple stuff, you don’t do that if you do hate the club and its manager and you want out now.

What they do with Tonda might revolve around what they've found out about further vulnerability. If he’s “fessed up” about multiple other instances that could still come out, they might sack him to show that they’re determined to clean up the club. Waiting for the FA to do it doesn’t get us any brownie points.

But it might not be about just that, or even how much the players like him. He might not have been entirely honest in claiming ignorance of the rule. The committee was highly critical of him supposedly pressuring young Will over his reluctance to “spy”, which suggests he knew it was illegal all along. That heightens the importance of the brownie points.

As much as I’d like to keep Tonda for his tactical approach and player relationships, he might be carrying too much baggage.

[LuckyNumber7]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Any idiot could see we needed to ditch 3 at the back. The results did not change much with To da whilst he was persisting with that

We went 7 games unbeaten after Tonda took charge, including the 1-5 win at Charlton, while playing a back 3. We did then go 7 without a win, but he made an immediate difference. 

[Wade Garrett]

10 minutes ago, washsaint said:

You really are thick one aren't you?  Results didn't improve until he ditched 5 at the back.....well he won 6 of his first 7 with 5 at the back.

Tonda is an excellent manager and should be headng for the top, this incident not withstanding.

With the mass hysteria around 'spygate' anyone would think Saints had bribed refs, injured other players on purpose or were making bets on the games.

In the great scheme of things what he and Saints did was stupid but minor.

This whole thing has been blown out of all proportion.  This idiocy and holier than thou approach realy started during COVID times and has remained ever since.  It's really quit pathetic.

The players downed tools under Still.  There would have been a turnaround whoever was in charge.

 

[hugh]

I have gradually changed my opinion; initially, it seemed clear cut, he has to go. Now, the whole thing has become less clear-cut. In hindsight, Gibson and his cronies were clearly out to manipulate the situation to his/their advantage, and with the aid of the friendly northern media, blew everything out of all proportion to the offence. Yes, what Tonda did was wrong, but I am personally more concerned with the bullying of junior staff. Kicking us out of the playoff final was clearly bloody ridiculous. A fine and a points deduction were the obvious penalties, but we are where we are.

The whole thing may be taken out of our hands anyway if the FA decide to ban Tonda and possibly others.

 

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 minute ago, hugh said:

I have gradually changed my opinion; initially, it seemed clear cut, he has to go. Now, the whole thing has become less clear-cut. In hindsight, Gibson and his cronies were clearly out to manipulate the situation to his/their advantage, and with the aid of the friendly northern media, blew everything out of all proportion to the offence. Yes, what Tonda did was wrong, but I am personally more concerned with the bullying of junior staff. Kicking us out of the playoff final was clearly bloody ridiculous. A fine and a points deduction were the obvious penalties, but we are where we are.

The whole thing may be taken out of our hands anyway if the FA decide to ban Tonda and possibly others.

 

Don’t buy the bullying line. Not one bit. If you’re that concerned about the morality and object to the culture of an organisation you have the ultimate means to protect your position. Resign. Did he do that after previous alleged scouting trips to Oxford or Ipswich? No he didn’t…he was fine with his assignment until he got caught and decided to rat on his employer to save his own bacon.

[Soton7]

What Tonda achieved in a short space of time was remarkable. His tactics, game intelligence, timely subs, and in game adjustments made a massive difference.

It’s difficult to say whether he’ll become a top coach because the resources and quality of players he had, made a massive difference.

But he is a winner, and winners are rare.

I’m all for managers/ clubs finding any competitive advantage, whether that’s creating false advertising boards to limit run ups for throw ins or pushing every boundary they can. But at the same time, what we did was amateurish. We fucked around and got found out (the hard way).

I’m more pissed off with how we handled the whole situation as opposed to the scouting/ spying drama.

Ultimately, two things will decide his fate: the FA and whether the players back him or have lost faith. 

[CB Fry]

2 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Don’t buy the bullying line. Not one bit. If you’re that concerned about the morality and object to the culture of an organisation you have the ultimate means to protect your position. Resign. Did he do that after previous alleged scouting trips to Oxford or Ipswich? No he didn’t…he was fine with his assignment until he got caught and decided to rat on his employer to save his own bacon.

Oh piss off. Not everyone has that kind of freedom in the job they do which funnily enough they might need to pay the bills or build a career in a tough industry to progress in. 

Life is a bit more complicated that your reductionist take in it.

[Cuddles]

It's getting a bit narky in here. It's OK to have a different opinion without the nastiness.

We need to be united as a fanbase if we are going to storm our way back up again next season.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Just now, CB Fry said:

Oh piss off. Not everyone has that kind of freedom in the job they do which funnily enough they might need to pay the bills or build a career in a tough industry to progress in. 

Life is a bit more complicated that your reductionist take in it.

Yeah, he needs the money for his iPhone contract I guess. Anyway it’s bollox - he had plenty of time to search out alternative employment if he objected to the culture etc., but he’s lapping up all the jollies with stays at hotels and expenses doing what he loves doing.  I’m not sure Eckhert even had the jurisdiction over him anyway.

[CB Fry]

4 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Yeah, he needs the money for his iPhone contract I guess. Anyway it’s bollox - he had plenty of time to search out alternative employment if he objected to the culture etc., but he’s lapping up all the jollies with stays at hotels and expenses doing what he loves doing.  I’m not sure Eckhert even had the jurisdiction over him anyway.

What shitty point are you making here?

The intern did it all off his own back? It was his idea?

Or even if you go along with your interpretation - he was happy to go along with it - so what then? Tonda is his boss so  the buck still stops with him. It doesn't exonerate Tonda.

Hats off for coming across as even more a twat second time round. People have rent and bills to pay you know.

Edited 2 hours ago by CB Fry

[The Wyvern]

13 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Oh piss off. Not everyone has that kind of freedom in the job they do which funnily enough they might need to pay the bills or build a career in a tough industry to progress in. 

Life is a bit more complicated that your reductionist take in it.

You’re such an angry unhappy person aren’t you. I hope this website provides you with the catharsis needed from whatever is troubling you. 

[LegalEagle]

3 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

What shitty point are you making here?

The intern did it all off his own back? It was his idea?

Or even if you go along with your interpretation - he was happy to go along with it - so what then? Tonda is his boss so  the buck still stops with him. It doesn't exonerate Tonda.

Hats off for coming across as even more a twat second time round. People have rent and bills to pay you know.

I think the point he’s making is that if he was being bullied in his role as far back as December and he didn’t like being bullied he could have looked for another job. Not that unreasonable a proposition. 

[Pengi]

Maybe Tonda could be demoted to Head Coach leaving someone else to organise the scouting operation and on-boarding of new recruits.  Could that be enough to satisfy the FA?

Edited 2 hours ago by Pengi

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Back 4, give Peretz and Larin plus spying every other week.

Will Still would have loved that 

So, Still would have done as well as Tonda in the same circumstances. Ok mate, life ain't like FM25.

[Lord Duckhunter]

There’s zero chance we were going down once we got Larin, Bree back & Peretz zero. Even if you believe Tonda is the only man who could have got us into the play offs, we’re still 4 points worse off next season  because of decisions he made. This wasn’t some tactical mistake or bad signing. It’s was a complete and utter balls up, which has resulted in a loss of revenue, standing in the game, and probably one or 2 players we may have been able to keep hold of (had we lost to Hull). He’s probably cost us sponsorship deals and season ticket revenue as well.  I’ve seen nothing which suggests this goes higher than Tonda, but until there’s evidence it did, he needs to pay the ultimate price. 

[sotonjoe]

Unless what we know already from the hearing report turns out to be false (unlikely!) there is no way Tonda keeping his job can be justified. It won't just be him either, anybody else complicit needs to be culled. The rot needs to be cut out entirely.

[cambsaint]

In the grand scheme of things spying on a football opponent is way down the list.

Our gutter press would do well to remember that  they willingly and knowingly paid private investigators to break the law by hacking into celebrities  mobile phones to increase their circulation and profits

[Saint Fan CaM]

53 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

What shitty point are you making here?

The intern did it all off his own back? It was his idea?

Or even if you go along with your interpretation - he was happy to go along with it - so what then? Tonda is his boss so  the buck still stops with him. It doesn't exonerate Tonda.

Hats off for coming across as even more a twat second time round. People have rent and bills to pay you know.

Putting words into my mouth is doing nothing to prove your point. I understand a rationale respectful argument is probably beyond you and that you’re hurting badly right now, but calm down and take a breath. We’ll agree to disagree.

I don’t blame him and he likely took instruction from Tonda, but I also don’t follow the woke line that the lad had no option but to repeatedly do whatever he was told - he was cool and dandy like all the other analysts until the shit hit the fan.

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Don’t buy the bullying line. Not one bit. If you’re that concerned about the morality and object to the culture of an organisation you have the ultimate means to protect your position. Resign. Did he do that after previous alleged scouting trips to Oxford or Ipswich? No he didn’t…he was fine with his assignment until he got caught and decided to rat on his employer to save his own bacon.

He’s got bills to pay and wouldn’t have the luxury of being able to resign on a matter of principle.

Like how you lump it on the analyst when the architect of it was Eckert and nobody else.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

54 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

There’s zero chance we were going down once we got Larin, Bree back & Peretz zero. Even if you believe Tonda is the only man who could have got us into the play offs, we’re still 4 points worse off next season  because of decisions he made. This wasn’t some tactical mistake or bad signing. It’s was a complete and utter balls up, which has resulted in a loss of revenue, standing in the game, and probably one or 2 players we may have been able to keep hold of (had we lost to Hull). He’s probably cost us sponsorship deals and season ticket revenue as well.  I’ve seen nothing which suggests this goes higher than Tonda, but until there’s evidence it did, he needs to pay the ultimate price. 

Would you put his execution before or after the Take That concert? 🙂

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Yeah, he needs the money for his iPhone contract I guess. Anyway it’s bollox - he had plenty of time to search out alternative employment if he objected to the culture etc., but he’s lapping up all the jollies with stays at hotels and expenses doing what he loves doing.  I’m not sure Eckhert even had the jurisdiction over him anyway.

 

13 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Putting words into my mouth is doing nothing to prove your point. I understand a rationale respectful argument is probably beyond you and that you’re hurting badly right now, but calm down and take a breath. We’ll agree to disagree.

I don’t blame him and he likely took instruction from Tonda, but I also don’t follow the woke line that the lad had no option but to repeatedly do whatever he was told - he was cool and dandy like all the other analysts until the shit hit the fan.

Fucking hell, are you sure?

[stknowle]

3 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

I think it’s easy to trivialise the turnaround - it’s not as simple as going to a back four. We were in a fucking tailspin with the pilot in a coma - make no mistake. He turned things around both in terms of personnel and tactics. Credit where credits due.

Indeed. Stick Madame Choulet off of the WOMBLES in charge, as long as Choulet changed to 4 @ the back then playoff place guaranteed. If not Choulet then Sweep, Brazil Brush or Emu (with Rod Hull advising maybe). 

Edited 55 minutes ago by stknowle

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 minute ago, Wade Garrett said:

He’s got bills to pay and wouldn’t have the luxury of being able to resign on a matter of principle.

Like how you lump it on the analyst when the architect of it was Eckert and nobody else.

He’s a nipper probably living with his parents, but that’s not the point. He’s no better off now than if he resigned with his head held high. As I keep saying I don’t blame him - I blame Parsons as the architect of policy. And yes, in another life in the past I’ve resigned because I disagreed with corporate policy - I took on that responsibility for myself.

[Saint Fan CaM]

4 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

 

Fucking hell, are you sure?

Of course not - no-one is until the full facts come out. If the lad was truly bullied then he’s got my full sympathy as that’s wrong, however there comes a time in life when you have to stand by your own convictions.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

25 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Putting words into my mouth is doing nothing to prove your point. I understand a rationale respectful argument is probably beyond you and that you’re hurting badly right now, but calm down and take a breath. We’ll agree to disagree.

I don’t blame him and he likely took instruction from Tonda, but I also don’t follow the woke line that the lad had no option but to repeatedly do whatever he was told - he was cool and dandy like all the other analysts until the shit hit the fan.

It's an awkward topic. It can only be a good thing to have a fully inclusive hiring system. But with that, we have to face some unfortunate truths.

The colourful clothing, with bright embroidery and feathered cap of your average dandy, is just not well suited for spying missions.

[Mattio]

1 hour ago, Cuddles said:

It's getting a bit narky in here. It's OK to have a different opinion without the nastiness.

We need to be united as a fanbase if we are going to storm our way back up again next season.

Apt username!

[whelk]

4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Because of his actions, a decent side will be broken up, we lost the chance of promotion & could face further charges & scrutiny. It’s unbelievable people think he should keep his job after that monumental mistake.
 

Unlike Bielsa he didn’t take accountability for this from the off. It looks like he lied by pretending he thought it wasn’t illegal. Why did he think Salt objected to doing it against Ipswich, because he had a haircut that day he didn’t want to miss? 

You know as much as any of us but always keen to be the pompous contrarian. 

[Saint86]

9 hours ago, saintant said:

I think you also have to factor in whether his relationship with the players is damaged. He's let them down as well as everyone else.

Same points stand for the players though. They were shit before tonda - they can't seriously then blame him for him raising their games 🤷.

Despite the bielsa non ban precedent, I think the FA will ban him. They have the chance here to look tough and put the boot in - to make up when they let all the big boys get away with stuff. We should all expect saints to receive further sanction. 

[Cuddles]

I don't think they will ban him you know. Not unless they can prove he was bullying really badly.