stu0x

Yup the sizes are definitely smaller this season

I also have a just-about-to-turn 5 year old who is small for his age, he still comfortably fits into the 'toddler kit' and his brother's YXS from last year is too big for him. Been waiting for any news of the new toddler kit coming out (which is also much better value as you get the shorts and socks) but there doesn't seem to be any sign.

It sounds like, if the shirts this year are smaller, I might be better off with a YMD and YXS - although the size guide on the website suggests both would be too big?

Annoyingly not local to Southampton otherwise I'd just take them into the shop.

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I could be wrong but Gabby has already gone and i mean permanently and Ings we are committed to buy, we can't wriggle out of it.

If we just refused to buy Ings, I'm not sure there is any sanction available. The league certainly can't impose one. It's potentially a breach of contract - so let Liverpool initiate a civil action. There's zero chance of that.

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Why not, he can play the other half.

 

 

Hard to get in to the first team with Mane, Firmino and Salah ahead of you.

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I think that is how it works from an accountancy perspective but in football terms any time you sign a young player for a lot of money and you sell him for quite a bit less, it's a complete bust.

 

He looked good on paper, I don't recall many saying he was a bad signing, it's just that a combination of his attitude and our circumstance (and lets face it, some bad managers) meant it never worked for him. I'm happy we can get a fee and move on rather than have to keep loaning him.

£12mill for Boufal is in unbelievable business. His actual worth to us is in freefall, and is arguably lower than his amortized value, which is just shy of 10mill. To recoup that, therefore, would be good going. To recoup more than that is a no brainer. The illogical 'football' decision would be to reject the bid on the basis that because we paid more than that for him he should magically be worth more.

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I hope we get Shaqiri. Can offer something different, important if Boufal goes.

 

 

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Exactly. And yet there does not appear to be any board level accountability for it. Over 10% of annual turnover blown in one hit. In any other corporate that gets you sacked.

The fact they backed a manager who was so far out of his depth by spending so much money so late on does smack of incompetence and that can only be attributed to those in charge. I still dont understand it.

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We have one of the largest and best scouting networks in the league - a huge department.

 

Usually 5 players are scouted for each position all year round.

 

The top 5 players for each position are then taken in to a meeting along with head of recruitment, Les, the financial director and the first team management. Hughes, will ask for certain positions to be recruited in. Those positions are looked at statistically and financially. Between them they rank them in order of preference and their respective clubs are then approached.

 

We are pretty good at quietly going about our business. It’s constant. I really wouldn’t worry about the lack of signings at this stage. No news is excellent news.

If true then that is simply appalling.

Five? Five players in each position? Your average, well-read/well-listened football fan who is capable of a modicum of structured, rational and critical thinking could come up with a list of five names for each position within a single 8 hour day's worth of effort. There is *so much* information available now about football internationally, you almost have to make an intentional effort not to pick up on it.

We should have suitably knowledgeable and competent individuals embedded in every country/region globally, whose entire role is to identify players. Not only 'scouting' in the old fashioned sense, but holistically - by being part of the local footballing culture and absorbing the background noise, and using well established analytical techniques that are employed in any other major business sector. Those people should feed in to regional coordinators, who have oversight and autonomy, act as a second pair of eyes, and who then make the necessary recommendations to the centre. The centre's responsibility should be assessing the 'cultural fit' of the player (by this point, their footballing ability should not be a variable). Crucially, assessment should be a continuous, ongoing process - the impact of ephemera either positively or negatively can be huge. Managed in this way, I would expect a 'living list' of at least 50 potential candidates for each position, with 10 or so being 'signed off' for approach and negotiation at any one time.

The cost of implementing a worldwide, systematic network would obviously be significant - but when you consider the costs of getting it wrong (eg Carillo, who all told is likely to cost the club in the region of £40million over 3.5 years, and will likely have an amortized value of almost nothing), it's peanuts.

It continues to amaze me how, for businesses who turnover in excess of £150million a year, Premier League clubs are so incompetent at actually being businesses. Their commercial acumen has stood still from the days when they were making less than a tenth of that.

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People complain about our recruitment strategy but I don't know of any talented player who has said he wanted to come to Southampton who we have not signed.

 

We sign good players but not very good/excellent players because we don't have the revenue to support that.

Bas Dost was making kissy faces at us in Summer 2016. The same summer we sold pretty much our entire goal threat in Pelle and Mane, and then failed to replace our centre forward because instead we built a time machine and went back six months to sign Austin again, or something mental.

It's okay though, because we haven't struggled for goals since then, and he's not really done anything since...

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Its a good point.

 

Tadic, Pelle, VVD, Victor and Mane all stand out players in the teams they played in. Did well for us.

 

Guido, Lemina, Redmond, Hoj and Gabbi all squad players. Mostly disappointing.

 

Its not an exact science though Bertrand and Romeu where both squad players but have generally done a decent job for us. Boufal was a star in his team and been utterly dreadful for us.

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I have a few times yes. He is a really nice bloke as is 99% of people at the club. He is the most gifted techincal player at the club without a doubt. but perhaps is too lightweight for a grafting team hughes is known to build. So it was always going to be a clash of styles. Put him in man citys team and he would be very good imo. I hope he stays along with gabby cedric tadic. The quality of this team really could/should have have pushed for europe. Grossly mismanaged.

Pretty much sums it up.

Sadly experience has told us that Hughes has no time for the more 'mercurial' type so if he stays, we might as well look to move Boufal (and Gabbiadini). Shades of Arnautovic et al.

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Chinese owners too I think.

 

Where's the money going?

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Meanwhile Bas Dost is up to 57 goals in 54 games for Sporting... he takes a good penalty as well...

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That's commitment from Bertrand if anyone wanted to see it.

 

England place/position sewn up, back to concentrate on keeping us up.

 

By the way, if anyone has met Ryan, you'll realise that his demeanour on the pitch is not a case of him not being committed, more that he's just quite quiet and like that. A switched on and intelligent guy as well.

It's no secret that Redmond is a proper moaner on the pitch, he berates anyone and everyone when something goes wrong and very rarely takes any responsibility for a misplaced pass or a broken down run himself. Bertrand, by virtue of his position, will have been exposed to that more often than most.

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3-5-2 needed,

 

McCarthy

 

Yoshida Stephens Hoedt

 

Cedric Lemina Boufal Hojberg Bertrand

 

Austin Gabbi

 

 

Obviously Boufal could be swapped for Tadic, Romeu for Hojberg/Lemina as and when, or possibly play Romeu in the centre of the back 3 and allow him to bring it out. Could even try Ward Prowse at WRB.

It's weird isn't it... our squad is pretty much perfectly suited to a 3-5-2, more by luck than judgement it seems. Boufal for example is tailor made to be a 'proper' 10. Stephens and Hoedt are just not good enough as a back 2, and Hoedt (surprisingly) does seem to want to bring the ball out of defence quite often. Hojbjerg and Lemina aren't defensive enough as a midfield 2 in front of a back 2, but with the extra insurance of a 3rd centre back it gives us more dynamism centrally than if we sacrifice one for Romeu. It's even arguably the best formation to get the most out of Carillo, if we are going to.

My only concern is at the full back positions... Cedric and Bertrand are both capable enough, but it's an exhausting position. Pied would be ideal backup at right back being a converted winger but can't stay fit, and McQueen seems to have totally fallen out of favour.

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Talking of stats. This may be well known but it surprised me when the answer was revealed. Which Saints players in, the Premiership era, have the best win percentage, apparently at 56% ? (And played over 38 games).

I'd guess someone who played under Koeman, particularly if (through accident or design) they missed a big chunk of one or both of his 'fallow periods' ie the tail of his first season, or November/December of his second season. Under Koeman, when the team was 'on' the win rate was unreal.

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Just thinking about managers who:

a) have (recent) premier league experience as stipulated by the club;

b) are 'available'. Because whether the club is prepared to buy someone out of their contract or not, time is very much of the essence so any unwanted approaches to managers can just be stalled by the other club for a couple of weeks to foil us;

c) would even consider the role, bearing in mind the possibilities of imminent relegation

The names I could come up with, other than the widely circulated Bilic (tactical pygmy), Hughes, and Silva (not being considered by the club according to AB)...

Craig Shakespeare

Frank De Boer

Paul Clement

Gary Megson

Mike Phelan

Francesco Guidolin

Tim Sherwood

Steve McLaren

Oh. Dear. God.

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The Championship will depend on who we appoint and who we hold on to. SURELY, given we'll be bringing in £150mn+ minimum in sales of Cedric, Bertrand, Hoedt, Romeu, Tadic, Hojbjerg, Lemina, JWP, Boufal, Redmond, Gabbiadini, we'd have enough to pay well for a season or two. Yes, I know people like to make excuses for Pellegrino and claim our players are rubbish and no one would want them, but reputations and past performance count for a lot and all those players will go.

Can you give an example of a relegated team, ever, that has seen that level of exodus of players being sold for half-decent money?

It just doesn't happen. The levels of wage inflation these days mean that realistically the only teams that can afford to buy our players are top half Premier League, or the odd team in Europe. You simply cannot make a sensible case for the likes of Leicester, Roma or Stuttgart (let alone the really big clubs) paying decent money for the vast majority of the players you have listed. There just aren't enough clubs with the buying power to go around, and those that do can find more value in their own leagues. We are far more likely to be 'saddled' with some big contracts for a couple of years.

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Mourinho said the same about Luke Shaw's fitness when he joined Man Utd

I think there is an important point here though. There are threads on here comparing our squad to Stoke's/Watford's/Burnley's/etc. Whilst we arguably stack up against most on a purely skill basis, a lack of physical fitness can be a huge equaliser.

Poch kept the players ultra fit. Then we had Kluitenberg - Koeman's fitness coach - who also kept very high standards (when he joined Everton he remarked how unfit their players were in comparison).

When Puel came in the dynamic changed completely. From day one he banged on about how important it would be to rotate the squad, the fixture list was untenable, there's no way the players would cope with PL, EL and Cups etc. This was so early on that there's no way it was based on empirical evidence - more a reflection of the man's ideology and experience (the French league has traditionally been significantly less physical than the PL). The style and tempo of play slowed considerably, and Puel openly stated it was because the players would need to conserve their energy *during competitive matches*. That being his approach to an actual game, it stands to reason that he wouldn't be pushing them anywhere near as hard in training either. The horrendous 'tail' at the end of last season bore all the hallmarks of a tired team. Not because they'd been run into the ground, but because their peak levels had declined over the course of the season.

Pellegrino comes in, and whether he wants to or not it simply isn't in his locker to up the fitness levels. It always concerns me when stories come out about how the players are enjoying a manager's approach. It usually means that they're finding training easy. So the decline continues, match tempo continues to decrease, and we look unable to manage 90 minutes with any sense of authority. We have the worst record in the league for holding onto a lead, and concede possession and territory with monotonous regularity towards the end of the match. Pellegrino says he hasn't 'asked' the players to do it. Maybe not, but (as with everything on the pitch) he has ultimate responsibility, whether it's down to physical, mental, or tactical constraints - or all 3.

Assuming we somehow limp over the line this season, and the Charisma Vacuum does get the bullet early, the club will have a race against time to sort the situation before next August, otherwise we will be straight into freefall. 'Fortunately' the majority of our players won't be wearing themselves out in Russia this summer.

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What’s everyone’s obsession with 4-4-2 it’s like everyone has got Merringtonittis. Our issue isn’t not playing 2 up front it’s zero goals and support from the 3 behind the 1. Tadic, Redmond, Boufal, Davo & JWP goal scoring record is woeful & their chances created are just as bad. They also rarely get behind the 1 & break from midfield. It worked yesterday because we had nothing to lose and were getting men into the box, you can get just as many men into the box with a 4-2-3-1 as was proved when we played similar systems under previous managers. If we play a 4-4-2 with these players and this manager, we will lose control of the ball, get out numbered in the centre of midfield and will leave our top 2 isolated up front. One change could be Gabbi in the 10, but I’m not sure how he’d do in that system, another way could be a diamond in midfield, although the forum experts derided that last season.

 

 

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Compare and contrast that with Pellegrino's 451. It is relentlessly defensive because it treasures possession over everything else. Possession football is all good but it is inherently reliant on a level of speed and technique with the ball that we simply don't have to create space. As a result there is very little pressure put on the opposition defense of any kind, the 'one up top' is hopelessly isolated so that, regardless of what style of forward they are, the majority of the time they are up against 3 of the 4 defenders. When we play wide forwards (primarily Redmond), they don't behave as such, compressing rather than stretching the backline by cutting in and back across the middle of the pitch.

I'm not sure 442 is (necessarily) 'the answer' because, given the manager's approach, I think we'd just end up with two isolated forwards instead of one. But i suppose the logic is that if we played two attacking players with complementary characteristics, it would give them half a chance of at least troubling the opposition backline.

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I wouldn’t take your opinions from a podcast if I was you, Gab Marcotti predicted Lamina would be a flop on The Game podcast.

 

Why don’t you give us your opinions. From what you’ve seen so far what makes you think he’ll be a flop.

 

 

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Whereas Phillipe Auclair and Julien Laurent generally come across as knowledgeable, balanced and non-partisan.

For the record I think he'll be a 'flop' (and by that I mean he'll have an average to poor goalscoring record here and we'll end up losing money when he moves to an inferior league towards or at the end of his contract). It won't entirely be his fault though. He has limited but distinct strengths but we do nothing to maximise them. A good coach would be able to get a good (although not overwhelming) rate of goals out of him. A good manager would be able to build a team that gets him the chances to get the goals. Unfortunately it seems Pellegrino is both a poor coach and a poor manager, so I don't see Carillo - or any other player, or the team overall - reaching anywhere near their potential.

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Recently though, we're not much different from most clubs our size. Taking the 'big six' aside for a second, Swansea, Boro, Blackburn, Leicester, Wigan and P*mpey have won a cup in the last 20 years and only 3 of those in the last decade.

 

Everton, Villa, Derby, Forest, Wolves, Newcastle, Sunderland, West Ham, Stoke, Brum, Bolton, Norwich, Fulham, Wednesday, Sheff Utd, Leeds, QPR, Reading... nothing in the last 2 decades.

Birmingham City won the League Cup 5ish years ago, beat Arsenal in the final.

Newcastle, Reading, Sunderland at least have all won the Championship relatively recently. Is it a big deal? No, not particularly (although you could argue it's more of a big deal than winning the JPT), but we didn't even manage to win that (or the League One title) on our way back up. Regardless of the 'value' of any silverware considered junior to the FA Cup, it's still *something*. We have arguably had a more eventful last few years than almost any of these clubs - for the 'right' reasons at least - but precious little to show for it.

We are so saturated by the relentless tide of football that it can quickly fade to the background. It's the moments that you remember. I was at Wembley for the JPT win and at San Siro for Inter. They are by far my two most memorable events of the post-admin era. The emotional value of the moment far outweighs the actual value (which is, in reality, almost nothing). Winning something is the punctuation mark.

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Les needs to kick the **** door down at half time and ask Pellegrino why Gabby, Boufal, Lemina and Carrillo are not on the pitch.

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But you need pace to beat the fullback hence we are in for a pacy winger Bertrand and Soares are also now more important and need to be on form plus Boufal may have an outlet

Ironically, although clearly not a world class forward, I think Carillo has the attributes to be the final piece of the puzzle.

Unfortunately that puzzle is not Southampton. We are so wedded to a single idealogy that suited the skills of our former players, but does not suit those of our current players, that we seem doomed to trying to jam square pegs into round holes, rather than actually considering our current strengths and playing to them.

Logic dictates that our front three 'should' (if for transfer value reasons over anything else) now be Carillo, Gabbiadini, and Boufal.

Carillo: has (or appears to have) height, heading ability, and sheer 'annoyance' factor in the box (ie ability to draw defenders and create space for teammates purely by his presence). Does not have: hold up play, technical ability (passing or shooting) further back.

Gabbiadini: has speed of thought, movement around the box, technical ability (particularly creating space in small areas and short distances when the ball is moving), finishing from short and medium range. Does not have: excessive pace, strength, hold up play, long range ability (passing or shooting), technical dribbling

Boufal: has outstanding ability when 1-on-1 with the ball, long range shooting (when not encumbered by defenders), can create space by committing opposition players, vision. Does not have: raw pace, a quick final ball (definitely has the ability but dallies too long, possibly because of where he tends to be on the pitch).

These three players have the perfect complimentary attributes to play with a front 2 and a 'proper' number 10. So I have no doubt we will continue to try and crowbar them into a 4-5-1/4-3-3 that neutralises most of their positive attributes and highlights their negative ones.

(Admittedly, there are some restrictions when you play a front 2 with a 10. In your midfield you need strong central rather than wide players, as you rely upon the midfield to break up and recycle opposition attacks, and create space through rotational positioning and overlaps rather than raw pace and dribbling. So it's a shame we don't have loads of central midfielders and no natural wingers then...)

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Interesting thoughts on VvD from Stewart Robson, who in my opinion, is one of the very best pundits about. He says he’s watched a lot of VvD and although he’ll make them better, that’s more down to how poor their centre halves are. Reckons he doesn’t read the game and can’t anticipate danger, uses his physicality to recover from slight positional and anticipation errors, but at champions league level you aren’t able to do that. Says he looks good because he’s good in the air, pretty quick and brings the ball out well. However, unless he starts to read the game defensively will never be top top class. Said lack of anticipation will be exposed at Liverpool because of the way they play and they over paid big time for him.

 

 

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They are just illustrative numbers. Basically, if 10% goes to another club and 20% (say) goes to agents then 30% of the fee goes missing in the first year.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised at 20% for agents. 10% by selling club and 10% by player’s agent would easily make that and it could well be more. Remember Juan Pablo Angel? Villa wanted to pay £9.5m for him but his selling club would have received about £1.5m

Transfer payments are spread over several years because ultimately it's the most beneficial arrangement for *both* parties.

And there is absolutely no way Southampton FC are paying 20million, or even 20 percent of 75million, in agents' fees.

You can't just make up figures and then say they are just illustrative when *by definition* they aren't.

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