ratio_decidendi

Greedy Virgil; captain Saints for another couple of years and you'd be angling for a move to Barcelona, but it's all about wanting money now. Or, at least that's what your agent is thinking. Two potential moves are better than one. As Southampton supporters you'd expect more from someone who's consistently shown such class. One word: disgraceful.

My opinion is this:

Past success, nuggets of information, or an ability to piece together currents strands of thought to create a believable impression of current events are all irrelevant skills unless we, as fans, know the source of information. This is basic journalism. Because ITK leaks are ultimately deniable by the club and ITK'ers will never out themselves (forever remaining anonymous) the credibility of leaks is perpetually under question for the discerning Saints fan. This doesn't mean that ITK leaks are not entertaining, because for me they absolutely are. In a way similar to Sky Sources leaks, they contribute in an entertaining way to the farce/pantomime of the transfer window. Some might, in fact, be truthful.

However, ITK leaks go wrong in three main ways:

First, fans who obsess about Southampton attempt to systemise proceedings. They try to find a logic within something they cannot possibly understand. This isn't a slight on those fans (it's just male behaviour to do so - we all do it in to some extent). Rather, it's just an indication that we will never have enough evidence or information as to what happens behind the scenes in the transfer window. When fans try to over-analyse proceedings, it can lead to irritating disputes that, for the rest of us, acts to the detriment of what can be sound discussion about the team we love. Forum quarrels are tiresome to scroll through, and ITK leaks contribute to this.

Second, in a way, that can extend to the pitch and fans being overly negative. This has an impact on the team's performance as it contributes to booing, as OP points out, (although not to a high degree, however; as the above poster points out, those who post here are a microcosm of the wider Saints fan network) but primarily to Saints fans' own outlook and perspectives. What I want to say to those who are negative is: "Cheer up, lads. It's not all doom and gloom!"

Third, and most importantly, the presence of ITK leaks can in some way contribute towards fans' betting markets. Now, on one hand we could say that this is down to personal responsibility. If you have a deficit of common sense and believe ITK leaks to the extent you'll place money on it, then you probably deserve to lose it, right? Well, yes and no. Immorality is a fine line, and in this case, I wouldn't go so far as to condemn those are leak ITK - however, what I would say is that those who do so without any concrete knowledge (I'm quite sure there is evidence of this in this transfer window - work this out for yourself...) are highly irresponsible.

My two cents.

I think some posters should sit back and realise not all on here are adults, but perhaps just Saints fans in the school holidays. I dont know how old the majority of posters on here are but we must get young impressionable fans as well and they dont need to be goaded. This is not just to you by the way

Now that's a back hander if I've ever seen one before.

It makes no business sense to get Wilshere on loan as the questionably tangible benefits (a more competitive squad for one season only? He's constantly injured, how realistic is he going to play consistently, and what impact will he have on the dressing room?) are outweighed by the long term consequences: we would displace a current first XI starter therefore disrupting their development and future value etc.; we would assist Arsenal in having a player match-fit for next season; and we would take a non-returnable hit on the finances.

Just no. If we had a shortfall of players in the middle of the pack, could negotiate an unrealistic wage drop for Jack, and establish a laughably low first-dibs to buy next deal for the end of the season, then just perhaps there may be a case - but none of these are even in the realms of being possible, so again, no.

SFC extend contracts not to build or ensure continuity but to ensure they get maximum value when selling players.

 

If Everton or Liverpool extend a player contract for 5 years the supporters can look forward to watching said player for err 5 years minimum. We on the other hand..... 2 years max

Offering contracts are not quite as zero sum as you make it out to be; it's not a case of either creating maximum resell value or ensuring continuity or building for the future. You can offer a new contract and accrue all of those benefits.

F Scott Fitzgerald once said: "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

On that basis, it's not difficult to regard yourself as not having a first-rate intelligence.

Yes, we all recognise the depressing factors indicating that Les Reed's most recent managerial appointment isn't working out. To name a few that have already been mentioned:

• Puel's inflexible approach to the diamond formation which has robbed us of our 'Southampton Way' and (in my very unlearned tactical opinion) does not make the best out of current squad of players;
  
• very few points picked up from games we should be (on the basis of last season) winning. I am not comparing game for game here (i.e. we drew against Sunderland last season) but simply on our strong run of form towards the end of last season;
  
• and dissent/poor body language amongst various players.
  

However, it is also possible to name various reasons as to why things may be looking up, most importantly incoming player acquisitions, infrastructure investments, and player contractual extensions.

If I was to come to an opinion, it would probably be this: it is far too early to make an absolute judgment on Puel or the club's season either way. We are only three games into the Premier League, in a season which will be defined by so, so much more (Europe, cup runs, etc. etc.), and which will last for another 9 or so months.

I would advise fans - specifically posters on this forum - to act with some patience before coming to an opinion. Be it a negative or a positive one, again, it simply is far too early to make a concrete prediction. Do not let emotional thinking cloud rationality.

With that said, I would also advise fans - if they absolutely must voice an opinion - to veer on the edge of positivity. This is for twofold reasons. First, the team will always play better without fans booing. In all walks of life, negativity is self-fulfilling, and we would be far more responsible to not admonish but to support the team in the face of adversity. Second, positivity will be a whole lot more useful for fans sake. I'm only 24, but if I all I thought about was how depressing football was, and how Saints were likely to go down, and how nothing ever works out, then I doubt I'd leave the flat in the morning. Judging on when most people post, I assume that the majority on this forum are in their 'golden years' - do yourself a favour and cheer up, please, lest you give yourself a heart attack.

It seems the "new formation " is as difficult for fans to watch, as it is for the team to play.

Playing "slightly-built " (OK...short.) midfielders against " opposition muscle boys " showed up in both games so far, and our guys were punching below their weight.

 

Majority % possession stats. are no replacement for the " fear factor " we had with the tall Pelle, or Mane's do-or-die heroics. Shane Long was a good complement to them, but Redmond (for all his skill) doesn't carry the same threat. Also neither Long or Redmond have scoring stats. anywhere those of near the above-mentioned pair.

 

Neither a fit Austin, or a rejuvenated Jay Rod is likely to get a look-in the present set-up which negates the use of " the big man up front ".

Puel's Henry/ Redmond comparison may come about (in some small way), but we can't sacrifice the whole system waiting for it to come to fruition.

I'm not alone in praising Tadic's skill, but he does seem to want to do it all alone and always wants to make one pass too many.

We've had 37 shots in the first two games resulting in one goal and one point. The possession stats. may look good on paper, but prove little else.

 

One solution; Leave Long on the bench until after HT when his speed/guile may work better against tiring defenders, and alternate Austin and Jay Rod until one of them comes good and gets in the goals.

 

I go on record every season that I don't take a serious look at the table until game 6 or 7 ..at this rate we may be looking at the wrong end before glancing at the top six.

Good assessment, and kudos for acknowledging that we can't yet form a proper judgment until a few games after the transfer window shuts. Last season we had six points in the first six games. Hardly a bonanza of wins, but we had our best league finish yet.

Now, with Swansea and Sunderland at home coming up, we shouldn't be complacent but we certainly have the opportunity to exceed the six point tally. Whether we do or not, it's not going to reveal everything about our season, but we'll be in a much better position then to either praise or chastise Puel's formation change.

I like Romeu. I think he has the potential to be a very good player. He's intelligent and, despite making some rash challenges, has been rewarded with a starting spot so, in a sense, has justified the faith of Puel et al.

However, I don't believe that he will be given the chance to shine this year owing to the formation change - as the sole DM in front of the back four, he does not have a like-minded partner to rely upon. The Diamond formation is more attacking, and will leave Romeu a lot more exposed. It is my opinion that he will do just as well as Wanyama would do in the same position (that is, not as well as he would with a partner).

With regards to incoming transfers, my point is that, on the basis of the above, I don't think buying a new DM will help the defence to a degree substantial enough to garner necessary funding. Romeu will be doing a sufficient enough job as is. Whether the formation change is a good thing or not is another debate altogether (although my opinion is that, as of yet, it is an unconvincing switch - not least of all because the majority of players have been using the old system for two or more years, but also because I believe we are leaving the full-backs too exposed).

If we really must invest funds into a new player (all the evidence suggests that we may bring in one more player at best), then I think it is likely that we'll bring in a young player who is flexible in playing across the attacking line. Such a player would prove a good investment for the future, and could provide immediate support in reinforcement on the pitch.

A clubs level will be determined by how desirable and appealing they are. Mix of how much they pay and how realistic they will challenge and win medals.

 

We are level 4 simply as we do not pay a premium premiership wage. We could easily step upto level 3 and combined with our recent prem finishes and pedigree for improving players could become a very desirable club.

 

I agree that financial capabilities and competitiveness are two factors in a club's desirability, but overall I think you're trying too hard to categorise, unnecessarily pigeonholing different teams into somewhat arbitrary categories. In reality, there are myriad qualifications that affect a club's desirability to players (if we are to regard desirability as being determined on the extent to which they can attract players).

Here are what I believe to be some factors in whether or not a club is deemed attractive or not to a player, in no any particular order:

• What are the wages on offer?
  
• What are the club's financial prospects for the future?
  
• What's the scale of the club's profile - i.e. are they internationally, domestically, etc. recognised?
  
• Do they have a track record of success, relative to their own standings and reasonable expectations?
  
• Do they have an active or passive presence in International competitions?
  
• Will my career progress further after being successful at this club?
  
• What is my agent's/family's opinion on this transfer?
  
• Where is the club located geographically, as well as specifically in what league?
  
• What is the current team like there, and do I know anyone there?
  
• Will I thrive under the manager?
  
• Will my own International opportunities expand?
  
• What other opportunities are available, and do I need to make a move now?
  
• What are my own priorities in a move?
  
• With all things considered, is it a better place to be than a) my current club, or b) other clubs who are interested in my services?
  

So, again, reasons for a club's attractiveness are based on myriad qualifications relevant to both the player and the club. The list above is by no means exhaustive. The main thing is that one cannot ever simply say X club can pay more and have more medal opportunities, so are therefore X club is always going to be more attractive to players. You might say that on average players regard those factors as more important than others, so therefore they have more weight. But that doesn't mean that it applies to every single player out there. Being perhaps a bit too generous to players on multi-million pound contracts, I dare say it only applies to less than a majority of them.

If you can't be bothered to read all that then tl;dr in short, I agree with S-Clarke.

Stop chatting **** Glasgow.

Five levels in the premiership. Level 5 includes Burnley, Hull. Also includes a few championship clubs like Newcastle

Can you detail these groupings further? I mean, you're going to have to be more specific than that.

We are a level 4 club with level 2/3 ambitions. We will continue to lose players to level 2 sides and this is almost unavoidable. We can reduce this by becoming a level 3 side.

 

Europe is not a pull for players, wages and medal opportunities are..... simple as that.

Yet Europe provides exactly each of the above - wages can increase as can bonuses (both as incentives to perform well) and international competitions quite obviously provide further medal opportunities. So, actually, Europe is a very strong pull for players. This isn't even mentioning the increased exposure of the club to wider markets, and theoretically a stronger team to play alongside (having justified a position in Europe). So, quite simply, you're wrong.

And if we're going to arbitrarily categorise each club into groups (which, by the way, is nonsense on stilts), then being in Europe surely places us in a more attractive position than, say, other 'level 4' clubs who only play domestically therefore allowing us a quicker transition into 'level 3'. But again, on what variables are you placing clubs into each group? To talk about level 2 and 3 ambitions is pure rubbish. The club will have expectations and targets in place relative to what they hope to achieve, as would every other club - wanting to 'break into the next level' is such a childish way of initiating a strategic road map for something as complex and competitive as the Premier League.

After only 90 minutes on the pitch, don't you think it's slightly too early to make a judgment?

Of course, one needs to only look at Pochettino's and Koeman's first few games in charge to realise that not every slow start equates to a poor season.

Shane tried to but unfortunately missed the ball.

Haha, wow, forgot about that one. I love Long but wow that was funny.

That's a pledge of allegiance to me. #GlassHalfFull

My point was fans don't need to know in advance. There is no real benefit to them knowing in advance. I was asking why the club would bother letting them know a few hours in advance.

It's good PR to build up to an announcement so as to maximise exposure to fans and stoke excitement, as well as to keep control over the announcement process.

It's no coincidence that the club will often Tweet a 'teaser' before announcing a signing shortly afterwards.

 

Interesting that when Pochettino brought in Harry Kane and Ryan Mason to the Spurs squad ....they had both had extensive loan-outs (since teenage) and Kane had been with four clubs. Mason had been out to six clubs and played nearly 100 League games.

Now, that is interesting. I always assumed that Harry Kane was a bit of a fluke for Spurs, but having such an extensive background at various clubs like Millwall and Leicester shows that he's had time to develop his play.

Food for thought when it comes to current Saints youth-team players, certainly.

I know its trousers being laughable with over the top and irrelevant comparisons again. In addition, a better comparison for some on here is where the pompey massive's blind trusting of the board got them. On the one hand you have people that want the club to always be improving... on the other hand you fans that like to remind us of our level, the glass ceiling and will be delighting in the "i told you so" moments when we don't achieve what most of us know we are capable of.

False dichotomy.

I also think the recent flux of contract extensions would indicate the players are happy with the season's plan.

This is such a crucial thing that doesn't come up enough amongst fans.

The players are actively showing commitment to the club's current philosophy and business plan by voting with their feet (i.e. by not walking out of the door to another club), and as their opinion is far more informed about the club's viability they can, therefore, be used as a much better barometer than your average #saintsfc fan.

On a different note, and this is just speculation, but I think the club are deliberately playing the 'no more transfers necessary' face as a negotiation tactic in the market. By staying discrete about player interest and not utilising the media to fuel speculation and pique player interest, they strengthen their own bargaining position. Certainly, it's what I'd do when buying a car, house or anything else substantial - I'd weaken my position if I had a bolshy approach to the market, informing everyone that I had loads of cash burning a hole in my pocket. Indeed, look at how much teams like Liverpool and Utd have spent!

So, to all those #saintsfc fans who are impatiently decrying the club's lack of expenditure over a month before the transfer window is over (!), I suggest you pipe down a bit and find something else to do. Save your absolute judgement until 01/09/16.

Not sure why stating the obvious is so worthy on scorn on this forum just because it has a mildly negative context. Also wtf are you mad. Everton are yet to sell any star players (we've sold Pelle, Wanyama and Mane) and united have spent some serious dosh on quality players. Likewise city are having a productive summer.

 

So in comparison to the three teams you picked we have sold 3 key first team players and replaced them with young, unproven and still developing players.

 

The simple fact remains, year on year we improve... then instead of really seizing that moment to build a special team, we instead gut the team to make a bit of profit and buy cheap again. Yeah generally it works... but we could have had a fantastic team over the years and quite possibly be better than we are now and have won a lot more!! Regardless, there is nothing wrong with highlighting the fact that saints are not spending the dosh, we had the 14th highest wage bill last season (ugly inside) and currently our first team is a lot weaker than last years; in fact the squad is weaker full stop at the moment. Personally I think it would be remiss of saints fans to not be concerned at the current squad relative to last years. It would in my honest opinion be completely unacceptable to sell 3 first team players for significant money, pocket record TV monies, and then end the summer weaker. Hence flagging it at a concern and using the word "currently" at the start of my post.

 

This place is infested with people that get on their high horses the second anyone posts anything that even hints at questioning the club. Insane. Have to keep them on their toes.... and a fan base that just toes the line every summer ends up like Arsenal's... Laps it up but actually goes nowhere whilst continuing to pay the board's pockets some rather nice dosh.

Chill, dude. You'd think we were fighting relegation each season with that kind of attitude and analysis.

How the hell that is supposed to be patronising to us is beyond me.

 

This chip on shoulder persecution complex makes you look far more small time that anything that journalist has written.

 

Infamy, infamy.

Yeah, totally.

OP is reading far too much into something which is simply a given fact: in the England set up, players from more well known teams tend to get picked over ones from smaller ones. And somehow the journalist is being patronising for pointing this out. Ridiculous.

Brilliant news.

I'd take Morgan back in a heartbeat, and without a doubt he'd be able to start in the team straight of the bat. He was a positive influence whilst here, and ability wise is a class above Clasie and Romeu (as they currently are in their own development).

However, would he want to return (should the board make him the offer)? Only he can decide that. As others have mentioned, there's examples of similar players returning to home clubs and thriving. But, at the same time, would he want to be seen as a failure after only one season at Manchester United? Indeed, would he even regard returning to Saints as a failure in his career?

We simply don't know his personal attitude to it all. So, rather than speculate, let's move onto links which are slightly more concrete.

(Although if I was to speculate, I don't think he'd want a return here, nor do I think the board would want him back.)

Can't see Mane going to Liverpool at all. I reckon he'll stay another year before moving onto a much bigger club competing in the CL.

To those who are saying Pellegrini had a poor last season at Man City, I'm inclined to agree. With such cash and players at his disposal, why didn't they end up winning the league?

However, in MPel's defence, I would point out the dignity with which he carried out his duties after the Man City board jeopardised proceedings by announcing the imminent arrival of Guardiola. Few managers would carry out their job to such a standard - let alone take City to a record high finish in the Champions League - after such a drop in expectations. So, for that, I think MPel deserves a bit of respect.

I'd be delighted to have him as manager of Southampton - it shows intent not just to us fans, but to current players, future players, and other teams in the PL that we are here to compete and do good business. We aren't rushing into a decision, but doing things the Southampton Way.

You're absolutely right. It's so frustrating to hear the crowd collectively groan when a player makes a mistake. I wonder how they would like it if they were criticised by 30,000 people whenever they slipped up at work.

These things happen - even to players as talented as Mane or Rooney.

Why exactly is Mane suffering from a lack of confidence at the moment? My guess would be that he's finding it difficult to adapt to the physicality of the PL as well as fitting in with a new team. It's not that Southampton are unwelcoming, but that 'big fish' from smaller leagues can find it harder to move to bigger ponds. But, that's just speculation.