moonraker

2 hours ago, whelk said:

Didn’t realise South Africa were such cunts

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/21/africa/africa-leaders-ukraine-response-cmd-intl/index.html

Sadly ‘western’ countries do not have great track record in their dealings with African nations.  I can sort of understand them not toeing the wests line.  I think they are playing a dangerous game but they have been shafted so many times over the years by the west.

25 minutes ago, whelk said:

Try going back and read what was posted. Riddled with people like you posting about sanctions being worthless, NATO scared, inevitable invasion once breezed through Ukraine and NATO wouldn’t respond. Russian elite soldiers with best weapons would walk over the west’s slimmed down military. Like I said horseshit. No one was saying they wouldn’t bombard cities. That is a world of difference from controlling them. 

Exactly, my point was not rubbishing opinions but challenging unfounded claims and statements not simple opinions.

1 hour ago, egg said:

I'm not sure that this is a subject where it helps to rubbish other people's views and give the message that you think that you're smarter than the average bear. It's a bloody serious issue and there's nowt wrong with people have differing views. 

Fair comment, I may have been a bit harsh but sometimes BS irks.  It is a serious issue and perhaps demands a little serious thought and understanding.

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

I posted a while back to hypo about thread needing bumping at some point to see all the earlier bs Russian worship was just that. Still going with some I see. Genuinely have no idea where these muppets get their analysis

Its not analysis, its is mainly  a case of a little knowledge is dangerous and what ifs based on more what ifs.  The same "commentators"  are also often brilliant at posting diametrically opposite opinions on the same subject in the space of a few days.  On one level it is amusing but on a more serious level leaving their ill informed,  uneducated self-important rhetoric to go unchallenged just emboldens them.  

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have pretty much flattened the country. 

You signing up to face that?

As said previously, it took the mighty USA, leading the Coalition of the Willing, 3 weeks to control Baghdad and a month to control Iraq. 

That was with a greatest conventional aerial bombardment in history, and facing at enemy firing at them (us) from the back of a Toyota.

 

The US and it’s allies lost far less soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan combined over a 20 year period than Russia has almost certainly lost in 3 weeks in Ukraine.  The west way of waging war, is as I have said before, designed to minimise casualties time is secondary.   To try and compare the performance of the 2 as somehow comparable shows a deep lack of understanding of military doctrine and capability.

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have pretty much flattened the country. 

You signing up to face that?

As said previously, it took the mighty USA, leading the Coalition of the Willing, 3 weeks to control Baghdad and a month to control Iraq. 

That was with a greatest conventional aerial bombardment in history, and facing at enemy firing at them (us) from the back of a Toyota.

 

So do you stand by your statement “Their land forces are extremely formidable”?

On 24/02/2022 at 15:58, AlexLaw76 said:

 

But Russia make most of their own capability.  They do not go for the most technological sophisticated jets/ships/tanks

With their 'only a couple more then we do', they have something like 10x the amount of fighter jets than us.  Their land forces are extremely formidable, a force that can easily out-gun ours (that was a reason for the reduction in our artillery capability as it would be over in minutes against that lot), and their Navy is pretty big.

They have developed some insane weapons that would bring havoc to any enemy.

Their activities below the threshold of war are well practiced.  They are it all the time.

Reading through earlier posts the level of awe afforded the Russian military is proving to be somewhat misplaced.  This ‘insightful’ piece from one of our resident military experts has certainly not played well.

2 minutes ago, Saints foreva said:

Fucking awful defending. 

Hardly incredible finish

3 minutes ago, Instant Classic said:

There's literally no such thing.

Anyone got a working stream? Mine's being weird.

strym tv need to download works great for me on iphone and ipad

Saints want Salah for Shane Long, 

1 hour ago, benjii said:

Trump was a Russian asset, FFS. They even had him trying to extort Ukraine a couple of years ago.

Using the word asset and Trump in the same sentence seems wrong.

On 02/03/2022 at 14:57, AlexLaw76 said:

Haha, all fair points.

My wider point is that assuming all expected this to be over by now is rather false IMO.

It took the "coalition of the willing" nearly 3 weeks to assume 'control' of Baghdad in 2003, that was with one of the biggest bombardments at the time (shock and awe). Let alone Ukraine, a more advanced country, with a battle-hardened army armed with the best weapons supplied by the US/UK for years. 

 

 

NATO or possibly better to say western military doctrine differs markedly from Russia's.  This has been the case since WW II, western armed forces doctrine is based on minimising casualties, firstly their own and secondly their opponents especially civilian.  This is achieved by a greater reliance on technical and equipment capability factors and accepting that the outcome, minimal casualties whilst neutralising the opponents capability and taking ground, is more important than the time frame.  Conversely Russian doctrine does not place minimising casualties very high and relies on overwhelming numbers to achieve objectives quickly.  I would therefore conclude that Putin's original plan has failed.  That being said Putin will continue to overwhelm with numbers and this may eventually  deliver his original goal , or it may not.  Either way there will be a significant human cost for Russia.

16 minutes ago, manji said:

I can’t see any evidence that the game is on tonight at all. Thanks for the suggestions and will be happy to be proved wrong.

It was repeatably mentioned during the Midd v Spuds game last night, it on the iPlayer red button.

It seems Bojo and his cronies are yet again chasing public opinion, yesterday it was 100k refugees today 200k, how many tomorrow.  Why put a number on it just open up to them, these people are fleeing for their lives.

1 hour ago, Warriorsaint said:

Unsure about this. Still private jets leaving from Uk to Russia. Allowing the Oligarchs to sort themselves out before Wet blanket Truss adds Oligarchs to the sanctions list “in the coming weeks”

It may be they are not registered in Russia, 

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yes doesn’t appear to be going well for Russia but that isn’t necessarily goods news for Ukraine but shows Putin the rest of world can royally fuck them if they choose. Some knew this of course whilst others seemed to swallow hook line and sinker the propaganda 

I like the line Royally fuck them, we could not prevent the initial assault, but if we can dethrone Putin via non military means that will be a game changing result in the history of conflict.

I have become slightly more optimistic in the last few hours.  If reports are to be believed combined with the failure of Putins initial assault objectives then perhaps, just perhaps, the Russian people and especially those who have supported and feared Putin may rise up.  Reading Putins mad ramblings it certainly has echo’s  of Hitler in his Berlin bunker in April 1945.

There is a lot of debate about where or what current nation states were 50, 100 years of whatever ago.  Theses arguments are meaningless, England did not exist before the 9th century, Germany before 1870, and Italy was not unified until Garibaldi sorted things out (arguably it still isn’t).  For me it’s simple, if the UN recognise a Sovereign Nation State as of 27FEB 2022 then that’s what it is.  

Brilliant improvisation from Che

6 minutes ago, whelk said:

I think you have no idea of the mood of disgust across the general public. Your defeatism and pessimism is not mirrored by anyone I know. 
House of Commons in rare sign of unity was clear this is nothing that will be underplayed. 
Yet you go finding a tweet about SWIFT and hang your hat on it making conclusions. 

Agree friends and family have expressed outrage and believe we must react decisively.

If many reports are to be believed the people on the streets of Moscow are not very happy with their leader.

41 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The point is it doesn't seem like we do have a united response over Ukraine which isn't going to make Putin calculate anything other than once again displaying the West's lack of unity and division. 

Its an opening gambit and only one sanction of many.  

41 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

 

But Russia make most of their own capability.  They do not go for the most technological sophisticated jets/ships/tanks

With their 'only a couple more then we do', they have something like 10x the amount of fighter jets than us.  Their land forces are extremely formidable, a force that can easily out-gun ours (that was a reason for the reduction in our artillery capability as it would be over in minutes against that lot), and their Navy is pretty big.

They have developed some insane weapons that would bring havoc to any enemy.

Their activities below the threshold of war are well practiced.  They are it all the time.

Whilst it is undeniable that they have huge numbers, especially in men and artillery, and that their traditional approach is lots of cheap, dispensable units, they have significant weaknesses.  It is not complacent to note that their military is predominantly conscript, and whilst their elite forces may well be  a match for what the west have I am not so sure that their average pongo,  matelot or crab have the same level of efficiency and training as the majority of their NATO counterparts.  You talk of insane weapons, to give one example.  In 2015 Russia heralded the first major new tank design anywhere in the world for over 30 years, the T14.  They claimed they would manufacture 2400 by 2020, to date they have only managed a test batch of 100, none are operational, current best estimates are a minimum of 5 years before they are operational and then only in small numbers due to affordability issues..  Their biggest problem is an extended conflict they do not have the finances nor the production capability.  Putins Russia is not Stalins, he will not be able to mobilise industry in the way Stalin did.  As has been noted they failed in Afghanistan with even larger armed forces at their disposal.   I do not doubt that he will cause untold suffering and damage, and may well subdue Ukraine, but the cost will be high, economically and in lives, the key to this may well be the reaction of the Russian people once the cost starts to hit home.

16 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I can't see the likes of America stationing troops in a country to die in a country they know nothing about. Expect we will find out shortly. 

The average American may not know nothing about the Baltic countries but the state department does.  It’s an easy sell to the MAGA hordes, fighting the pinko commies, the will be queuing around the corner, all armed with their own weapons 😂

11 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

he seems to be doing more than most at the moment (albeit way too late)

Your having a laugh, the 12 years of Tory rule has enabled corrupt Russian money laundering through London in exchange for donations to the Tory Party.  When the Tories return every penny they have received from Russians then I might believe he is serious.