SW11_Saint

20 minutes ago, saintant said:

Ah, see you've changed your mind on this 🙂

I haven’t ‘changed my mind’ I was just reminded of the context, which I had forgotten.

I’m in hospital atm after major surgery and on a cocktail of heavy pain killers - so you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t quite meet your exacting standards from time to time… I promise to do better in  future. 

50 minutes ago, chiknsmack said:

If both THB and our 7th choice CB are on the pitch at the same time we will certainly be in challenging times.
[Your 7th choice not Will Still’s I suspect. And if THB stays, they 💯 will be on the pitch together at times]

Those three are the three that are being targeted to be brought in *without sales*. He wants to get rid of some of the dross without replacing them to trim the squad, but if anyone he wants to keep is sold they'll be replaced.

[Yes, already qualified this - my error]

If THB and Bednarek go, Steve Cook. A leader with a proven record who is good enough for the league but won't be too upset if some of the younger players he helps improve take his spot. Ben Mee as above is a decent shout too.

[Can’t see QPR letting Cook go, esp. having just ‘lost’ Edwards. Always liked Mee and he might be a good option]

One of the only things you've said that I actually agree with is that we have a completely serviceable bunch of CBs for the Championship even if THB and Bednarek leave (though they're a long, LONG way from being good enough for the Prem; I'm hoping we return to the Prem with a better THB and an Edwards and/or Quarshie who have improved so much that they're better than Bednarek ever was), so it's the only position where we might sell a player for £20m+ and not spend £10m+ on a replacement.

[Yes, I don’t see a problem with them if THB stays. Shea Charles can play there too] 

That said, I'm not sure words like serviceable and adequate are the ones I want to see used to describe the squad. I don't want an adequate Championship squad, I want an adequate Premier League one (or as close as we can get right now without the money and lure of Premier League football).

[Wishful thinking I’m afraid. We’re not going to attract PL quality now. Key is producing a team capable of challenging at the top - I think we will - developing the promising ones (THB, Quarshie, Edwards) and then doing what we dismally failed to do last time, bring in true quality and being ruthless at jettisoning those not up to scratch]. 

53 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Plenty of options on this list other than Darling who has already joined Norwich (we were linked as were Rangers but was always going to work with Manning) and the promoted clubs players https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/all-24-efl-championship-clubs-best-centre-back-ranked-from-best-to-worst/

Can’t claim it I know anything of that lot… are the youngsters any more promising than Quashie, Edwards or Kayi Sanda? A lot at the end of their career too. The guys at Millwall or Sheff Weds maybe? 

6 hours ago, Challenger said:

Indeed, however I am not getting the impression the new " regime" is learning anything by offering a new contract to a bang average player.

We're in this league due to piss poor management decisions and players of the calibre of JS.

“Rinse & repeat”

6 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Adequate doesn’t get you automatic promotion which is supposedly what Still has been set to aim for. Wood is not an adequate Champ CB either - have a watch of this. If the club had paid attention, Martin wouldn’t have been allowed to sign him. And Quashie hasn’t played a minute in the Championship, Kayi Sanda barely a couple of promising PL sub cameos. Edwards has 18 months experience and a good half-season loan at QPR but he will 100% need experience - high quality experience for this level - if Jan and THB leave. Unless the club are repeating the 08/09 experiment. Brum, Ipswich et al won’t be relying on a u23 back line like the above and that’s the minimum bar for Southampton Football Club.

 

Serious question- which CB are you expecting us to buy if THB goes?

5 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

If they truly think any of that, then we have no future under the current ownership and management model and they need to go. That would be sending us to L1 at a very alarming rate.

I don't think that's the case though. We will replace Fernandes, THB, Ramsdale if they were sold. You can't lose your best players and complacently fall back to your squad players and expect to be competitive. I'm sure they're not that daft.

I stand corrected. I think @hypochondriac has it right - three that Spors was sourcing regardless of sales (two down, one to go) and then others to follow to replace some departures where we don’t have cover. 

i still don’t think they will replace all key departures. Even if THB goes I think they see Quashie & Edwards stepping in. Goalie - not sure. I’d like them to buy (assuming Rambo goes) but might they think the two they have are ‘okay enough’ in this Dlv, then Rambo goes on loan and returns if we get promoted? We’ll see. 

If we keep AR & MF I’ll be very confident about our chances. 

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Nope he didn't say that. He said those were the three positions we were going to sign before selling anyone. If the big name players leave then fairly obviously we will replace them. 

Yes, sorry, I think you are right. Three they were attempting to ‘get on with’ regardless, but then others to replace some of those who depart. 

1 minute ago, saintant said:

Ok, then it's possibly your interpretation of what Spors said that differs from mine.

Absolutely. 

36 minutes ago, imadirtyurchin said:

Oh yeah, you’re absolutely right. Stats can be made to say anything. Except in this case…, I couldn’t make the stats say that jack stephens was a good player 😆

Indeed… 

2 minutes ago, saintant said:

So you'd presumably be happy if we sell Ramsdale, Fernandes, Dibling, Bednarek and THB and spend only on one attacking midfielder because that's the only position you think is left to fill after comments from Spors. Can you imagine the outcry from the majority of the fanbase?

It’s not what I think - I’m just reporting (via Alfie House) what Spors has allegedly indicated. On the CBs I’d be happy with what we’ve got if Bednarek/THB leave (though I’d rather see THB stay). 

I think they’ll feel a McCarthy & Bazunu are enough for this division and maybe bring in a new 3rd choice keeper. 

Much of what we can spend is down to PSR, which is in turn related to outgoing sales, so could be Spors is just keeping his cards close to his chest until he knows who is leaving and for how much. 

7 minutes ago, saintant said:

Well if the club was always right we'd not be in the current mess and wouldn't have had to sit through the complete debacle of last season. They have been known to make wrong decisions in case you've not been paying attention.

10 minutes ago, saintant said:

Well if the club was always right we'd not be in the current mess and wouldn't have had to sit through the complete debacle of last season. They have been known to make wrong decisions in case you've not been paying attention.

But you’re comparing apples (Ankersen) and oranges (Spors). I suggest we delay judgement on Spors (& Still) until he’s got a full season under his belt. 

1 minute ago, saintant said:

We'll see but I'd be amazed if we sell star players and don't spend the money. It'll be another way to turn the fan base against those running things that's for sure.

I honestly think Edwards, Wood, Stephens, Quashie and Kayi Sanda (+Bree/Charles) is more than adequate CB strength in this division. 

1 minute ago, imadirtyurchin said:

I think therein lies the real problem…I was hoping hoping hoping that finally we would have people at the club that might look at the past few years of failure and maybe look at the players who’ve “contributed” and come to a different conclusion 🤗 

Guess they see value in him being here that not all fans recognise. Not dismissing his playing record or faults, but organisations and staff (rightly or wrongly) are often perceived very differently from within to our outside perspective. 

Just now, saintant said:

I'm fairly sure that statement would have been on the strength of the available squad at that time. Common sense dictates that, if we lose 2-3 star players, the money received will go towards replacements. It's what all successful clubs do so not sure why Spors wouldn't be smart enough to appreciate that - if he's not then he's in the wrong job.

Pretty sure Spors has indicated he’s only after a CB (done), Striker (done), and attacking midfielder (tbc). 

4 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

All of which could’ve been relevant without the need for 3 more years (2 plus the remaining 1) as he was still under contract. Do you genuinely think a 31 year old who ‘is not really as bad as some think’, only played 200 games for us in decade and been loaned out three times is a priority for a contract to 2028?

Clearly the club think he is. And at the end of the day, that is what matters. 

1 hour ago, imadirtyurchin said:

Apologies if this has been done before: after a long discussion with my brother about the merits (or lack) of jack stephens as a saints player. I thought id do a little research : conclusion. he’s completely a player that has lucked into having a top flight football career.

He’s played 164 times for Southampton in 14 seasons… and only 243 pro career games and never more than 28 appearances in a season for us.

Other than a high of 28 appearances in 2019/20 he mostly averaged about 19 games a season when he has played. Otherwise his career is a succession of league one and championship loans whereby on more than one occasion he couldn’t break into the lower league club’s first team. He averaged 16 appearances a season across these 5 lower league loans.

overlaying his appearance history with the fortune of Southampton fc - I would suggest that the worse we’ve performed (and the worse the first team was) generally the more appearances he’s had.

so. But he has experience I hear you cry: well 243 games in 14 seasons… compared to THB who has 163 in 6 seasons and Downes who has 220 in 8 seasons…. I’m not sure his vast experience counts especially when you look at minutes on the pitch…. I started to look it up but I basically then lost interest and then I just decided to despair that we decided to give such a poor player the captaincy and a three year extension at the age of 31. 

 

 

 

 

Not disputing all of your conclusions, but there’s always peril in looking purely at stats and not the human beings behind the numbers. I’ve got mates who crow about their team’s ‘better XG’ after their team has lost. Always baffles me… 

35 minutes ago, saintant said:

If Bednarek and THB go we'll have money to replace them - no need for this to impact Stephens position at the club.

I don’t believe they’re planning to replace either from what Spors has said. Quashie the only incoming at CB, leaving Wood, Edwards, Stephens, Quashie & Kayi Sanda as squad CBs (I’m discounting ABK, but Bree/Taylor/Charles can also play CB if needed). 

2 hours ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

This raises an interesting point. I can see Jack being our team captain this season because of his seniority in the side, he can bellow orders and he wears his colours on his sleeve - but that really is a retro step. So who can take over? I too want THB to step up this year but surely he's too young for captain.

Sometimes it can help develop young players, and he has successfully captained England U21 of course. McMenemy pulled a masterstroke in making Steve Williams captain when he was about 24 I recall and he rose to the challenge (quite a different character to THB though!). 

I do think Taylor might find it a challenge captaining a team where Jack was playing too... 

39 minutes ago, saintant said:

But why extend his contract? No need to do that as he is not a key player who will have sell-on value.

Not sure but have a hunch it’ll be linked to Bednarek & THB going. If Jack has a smart agent he probably pushed for a longer term to take him up to 34. Security for him, and the club I guess feel it’s worth the investment. 

BTW I’d like THB to stay (who was also very much ‘off boil’ last season), and if he stays he’d be my choice as team captain. Might actually help his development. 

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

Just to clarify, are you using the word 'club' because you know that we're going to go back to the Kelvin Davis days of having a 'club captain' (as a ceremonial role) and a different on-field captain (although it could, of course, still be the same person from time to time)? 

If that's the case, then I'm not too fussed that we've given Jack the 'club captain' role.

My concern was that we could've been repeating the Russell Martin mistake of naming a mediocre player as on-field captain that then adversely influences the matchday team selection. 

Using it as I’m sure I heard it elsewhere… and Alfie used the same expression in the pod above. No idea if it means the guy who organises the players pool / bingo on away trips or something more significant. 

I agree though and hope it’s the former and Will selects a certain starter (if Captain material) for the actual team captain so we are not ‘boxed in’ re Jack again. It would be foolhardy imho. 

Two more people not 💩💩the🛏 over the club captain getting a contract extension…

7 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So to clarify, you think extending Stephens contract for another TWO years is a good idea because :

He's a 'useful' squad player, but he has his limitations and his abilities really aren't that great.

He has a clear leadership role within the group - the group that had the second worst PL record ever, conceding an extraordinary amount of goals and had a failry obvious lack of discipline and motivation.

He has an air of authority - but as above, presumably not enough.

He shouldn't be in the starting line up as there are better options, but he would be fine sitting on the bench.

 

Not sure your dogged determination to back him is quite the 'zinga' you think it is in your head - after all, you can't even summon up a glowing reference for him yourself!

All of the points you mention as being 'useful' would still have existed until 2026 without giving him a 2 year extension....

I’ve already said - and am a little tired of saying - in a perfect world I’d have given him a two year deal, but I assume there has been some negotiation on pay scales for the three year deal. 
 

I won’t repeat the rest as I’m tired of typing the same thing, but it’s happened - we’ll all need to learn to live with it. The world will still keep turning, we’ll win some games, we’ll lose some games, he’ll be good in some, okay in others, and undoubtedly terrible in a few. Try not to lose too much sleep over it…

1 hour ago, coalman said:

Part of the trouble of going into a low performing organisation is that no one thinks they are low performing which leads to an inflated opinion of the people in leadership roles. I have taken over teams where the initial feedback from people in the team about a particular person is that they are great. It takes time to work through that but you kind of have to operate on trust until you can verify it. In some respects you can't rock the boat until you have data.

That being said - I always assumed that low performance comes from the top and I have yet to be disappointed in that viewpoint. The old saying that "As hire As and Bs hire Cs" probably applies here. It's one of the reason why turning around a broken organisation is so hard because the people doing the hiring ARE the problem. By the same token you also run into the Dead Sea Effect where your lose your best talent and keep your mediocrity and thus mediocrity becomes institutionalised.

Though Spors is new to the organisation, and - on the face of it at least - appears to have a plan. We have to give him a chance to change things. 

2 hours ago, gio1saints said:

Fair point about the three years instead of, say, another year extension or nothing or indeed to be sold - but it does rather depend on some other factors we don’t know about yet re our other CB’s ~ but this unusual extension gives us a clue. 

Selling him right now would not be unreasonable so why is he not sold? Nobody wants him or is it something else?  My guess would be there’s a strong chance Jan, BK and maybe THB are all for sale/being sold as we speak. 

IF JS were also going that would leave us relatively CB lite - even with RE coming back and Quarshie. Besides it’s a nominal fee I’d imagine. 

The not renewing and letting it roll option is almost the same thing except after maybe losing three CBs getting in two we do not have the security of knowing our utility man Captain and CB is fully committed.  

The extension means we could still release him early- potentially for a fee - if we get promoted or even if not - but also ensures credibility for that much vaunted Academy to first team pathway.
 

In a league which WILL be more physical he has shown often enough he is not afraid. When it comes to our local derbies for example I’d have my heart in my mouth if he was playing - but also secretly know he us the player most likely to smash someone into Row Z. Which I’d find very satisfying and worth my ST 🤭😎
 

Spot on. I’d 💯 play him in the P*mpey game for that reason. He gets it. 

17 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

At the end of the day, his ‘dressing room presence’ can’t be any good either. He’s been here in 2 of our worst ever seasons. Hardly setting a high standard is he?

Absolutely sick of watching him at this point. 

If we start the season with him and Bazunu playing as first choice again I will be raging 

 

 

He was here when we got promoted too. From the Championship. Also, he’s club captain, not manager.