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The conclusions that people jump to on here. Bearsy cannot be Deppo. Bearsy is a BEAR! And you've gone and messed this thread up too, CL. Bearsy likes to close all threads.

Good call. I've said on other threads that multi-culturalism is a means of playing divide-and-rule on your own doorstep. Works very well, too.

I didn't know we had Daily Telegraph journalists posting on TSW. Never knew your name was Hannah either, Gingeletiss.

I work with a fella who claims to have played with Ron during his time at the LA Aztecs. Nothing but praise for the man.

Not until you just mentioned them. Some links here, if anyone else is interested:- Haaretz Raw Story If these reports are true, then it would indicate a conspiracy

Phil, while I would normally defer to your knowledge in this part of the world ( and may still do here ), it's worth pointing out that the surrounding states have plenty of reasons to want Iran, or at least the current regime, out of the picture. Let's not forget that the regime swept to power in an Islamic Revolution, and that Khomenei was actively trying to spread the Revolution to other states in the late '70s / early '80s. That's one of the reasons that Saddam felt the need to invade. That said, I think you're probably right. It can't be US-led in the sense that the US is seen to cast the first stone. I would imagine that any conflict would be preceded by a hostile "Iranian" action, in much the same way as the Vietnam War started. One thing's for sure - the conditions for that sort of international mishap look 'better' by the day.

Agreed. Lots of saber-rattling of late. Do you think "US-led" or "Israel-led" is more likely? Israel seem to be keener, but I'm not sure they can do it unilaterally.

Thank-you.

I'm glad they don't let you umpire at Wimbledon anymore.

Our boys, at least with Iraq, were sent to war on a lie. Even in Afghanistan, there's a good argument to suggest that we should have gone surgical on OBL (which in fact, is what eventually happened). I appreciate that you take the Queen's Shilling, Jamie - so I'm not expecting anything else than what you've written here. Despite your likely pre-conceptions about what someone on the left thinks of the Armed Forces, I have a massive amount of respect for those that serve and the sacrifice they are prepared to make. I'm just not personally willing to sacrifice them to improve Halliburton's bottom-line, particularly when that process creates a load of Islamic extremists.

Yeah, silly me - I was out on the streets trying to stop my brothers and sisters getting killed or injured in needless conflicts. Horses for courses, I suppose.

Off the top of my head, because they were set up with the sole purpose of opposing the BNP. You may also be surprised to know that the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament didn't demonstrate against pea-shooters either.

The part where it was relevant to your experience of being on Stop The War / Student demos, skip.

The point is, you're not even getting basic facts right.

Not if you've only seen it on the telly, mate.

Really? UAF - founded 2003 EDL - founded 2009

Tell you what - I'll refrain from commenting authoratively on life in the mob, you stop commenting on real life. Deal?

Mate, I can deal with your off-the-cuff remarks, but let's not forget that it was dune who brought the UAF thing up. It was called out as a straw man argument on the UI, and mentioned here only because he's copying and pasting his standard defence of the EDL ( essentially pointing the finger elsewhere ) on this board too. Guess what? Still a straw man argument here.

What is your experience of student/stop the war demos? I've been on plenty, and have only ever seen trouble when the demo was reported on the news in the evening. (the cameras love the scuffles mate - people peacefully walking through London just ain't great for viewing figures ).

I think they know this too, which begs the question - what are they actually doing? There is enough attention on Islamic extremism. It has been more or less constant on the news since 9/11. The EDL aren't adding anything to our understanding, and I suspect that they are simply a bunch of racists who've chosen an ostensibly unassailable cause to hide behind. It all works beautifully until you actually hear them speak.

They have a similar, almost identical (with dune's UAF stuff and all) thread going on over at the UI. Quite apart from anything else, I fail to see how the EDL plan to solve Islamist extremism. Are we to believe that droves of mostly white individuals turning up in town centres is going to have any effect whatsoever?

I think I might add that qualifier to any particularly explosive posts.

Truly amuzing (not a spelling mistake - a spicy fusion of amazing and amusing inspired by Sergei's post). Anyway, where to start? I suppose that "an effective capitalist system" is as good a place as any. Which countries would you say enjoy an effective capitalist system? You can't really point to the US or the EU. We're up to our ears in debt. That's like someone saying "I really manage my money well, but I'm 400K in debt". You've picked one specific example of the left-wing turning to the dark side, but there are innumerable examples of dysfunctional capitalist societies to be had. Furthermore, it is not as if left-wing states where the "trappings of affluence" are in relatively short supply. I know that the average Brit has a much better standard of living than the average Belarusian, but I also know that the average Brit has a much worse standard of living than the average banker. There are gross inequalities of wealth in both societies. I'm also intrigued with the whole Billy Bragg angle. What would he have to do to regain Sergei's respect? Move into a terrace in Sh*tsville?

Can I add Joseph Williamson, a Liverpool-based tycoon? He mysteriously employed a ton of poor people, some destitute after returning from the Napoleonic wars. He tasked them with building a network of tunnels, the purpose of which have never been fully established. When asked why the tunnels were built, Williamson's explanation was:- "all received a weekly wage and were thus enabled to enjoy the blessing of charity without the attendant curse of stifled self respect"

Good post highlighting the dangers of "package beliefs", which is something that has already reared its head here ( "if you are left wing you must support the release of Lockerbie bombers", etc ). In a sense, that's why I've never been interested in joining a political party. I'm well aware that all three parties are broad churches, but through the party-whip system and the need to stay "on message", all three political parties present a very small fraction of their wider political belief as all they believe. It's not surprising that the public sees politics in the same packages that they're given. As you point out, most of it is crap. Chris Rock perhaps sums it up most eloquently:- "Everybody's so busy wanting to be down with the gang. "I'm conservative", "I'm liberal", "I'm conservative". Bullsh*t! Be a f*cking person! Lis-ten! Let it swirl around your head. Then form your opinion. No normal, decent person is one thing, okay? I've got some sh*t I'm conservative about, I've got some sh*t I'm liberal about. Crime, I'm conservative. Prostitution, I'm liberal!"