Saintandy666

Yes, I know that... but paying it back 9% over 21k is not life limiting. It's basically a graduate tax. As someone who is starting Uni on Sunday, it isn't tuition fee loans/payback of it that I am worried about at all. The main issue is living costs. I get a maintenance loan of £3575 each year. Guess how much my accommodation costs each year... about 3500. And I can tell you now that my accommodation is probably the cheapest of all my friends. Now I'm quite lucky that I had grandparents who have put aside a small amount of money each month since I was born which will get me through uni fine, but just imagine if I didn't have that support... I simply wouldn't be able to afford to go. Because I'm from a middle class background, I get the bare minimum help from the government which if I was at a different uni wouldn't even cover accommodation. I know it is 'first world problems' and all that, but its worth thinking about. The problem with higher education in this country isn't tuition fees(though I'd like to see a graduate tax), it's the rubbish amount of support available to middle class families. And the full funding stuff comes from a different era, before Labours ridiculous 50% target. You can't introduce targets for this kind of thing. Everyone who needs to go should be able to go, but University isn't right for everyone and there are plenty of other equally respectable paths to take.

Well, there is no burden in terms of tuition fees why you are at university and afterwards its all based on how much you earn. And 1982 was a totally different era in terms of number of universities and how many people went. And why are we suddenly comparing 2012 to 1982. You said the Lib Dems had tripled the burden from the last system...

True that. Bradford it is then!

Can't remember the exact time scale at all!

Knew they couldn't afford to keep, because they knew they would be in government in a coalition which would inevitably lead to different priorities throwing the costing of this policy out of the window.

I can't really comment too much on the Lib-Lab pact other than to say the obvious; the arithmetic was very different and so are the Labour Party to the Conservatives. You'll have to argue that with someone who was around at the time. And I completely disagree with you for what I already said on policies actually achieved as well as tory policies compromised in power! See all my other posts!

It fairness their 4 key policy sets as stated in the opening few pages of their manifesto were: 1. Taxes - Income tax allowance to be raised to 10,000. DONE. Close tax loopholes exploited by the rich. DONE. 2. Education - Pupil Premium, £7bn extra for the countries poorest kids - DONE 3. Jobs, Banks and the Environment - Green investment bank + government investment bank - DONE Splitting up banks into retail and investment. - DONE 4, Electoral Reform - Move towards a fairer voting system + lords reform - so far a FAILURE(did get a referendum on AV though, but it should have been on PR). I'd say they have delivered, despite being in coalition on 3/4 of their core policy sets. Not bad.

It would have been hypocritical because of their beliefs in coalition, dangerous because of the precarious state of the economy at the time and cowardly not to take the chance to get their hands dirty in the business of government and actually make a difference to people's lives. What would have been the advantages of a pact? Less Liberal Democrat policy would have gotten through and government would have been unstable at a time when stable government was needed. It would have inevitably led to an election where either the same result would have happened again, or worse(and more likely imo) a Tory majority would have happened A complete conservative majority free to do as they wish.

What an absolutely piece of rubbish. The Lib Dems were brave to go into coalition with the tories as they knew it would mean bad news in the polls, but they felt morally obliged too. They kept to their beliefs in coalition government. The hypocritical thing to do would have been not to go into coalition given their policy history on electoral reform.

In fairness, it's not as if Clegg is pretending to believe in things he doesn't. It's quite clear he was extremely uncomfortable with many aspects of conservative led policy, like the cutting of the 50p tax band, but its a coalition so you get on with it in the knowledge that you can make more of difference from the inside than from the outside.

Hopefully, at the very least this experience of government will mean that the Liberal Democrats have a more sturdy core base in the future. Too many people just saw them a protest party or some ridiculously left wing party SWP-equivalent. I don't think they will lose quite as many seats at the next general election as some people predict though. It was interesting to note that in many Lib Dem seats at the locals this year(like Eastleigh and Portsmouth), Liberal Democrats did extremely well and in the case of Eastleigh swept the board!

But as an ex-Liberal Democrat voter, you surely understood that they supported PR and therefore supported coalition and therefore knew what this coalition would mean. And as the Delldays has said, we have got in some excellent policies including income tax allowance, pupil premium and a government funded investment bank. In addition to this, we have taken out a lot of the more right wing aspects of the conservative party allowing for more centre based policies in many areas. Surely, this arrangement is better than a conservative government. What did you want/expect? For the Lib Dems to just stay in opposition forever, sniping at the sidelines. At least Liberal Democrats policies become a reality this way.

Who said it would be a free uni place?! It would have been replaced with a contribution system post-uni like a graduate tax. Paddy Ashdown called the pledge opportunistic, not the policy. Abolishing tuition fees has long been a Liberal Democrat objective and it remains so. A graduate tax is the way forward.

In fairness, 'savage cuts'(Cleggs description, not mine) were worked into Lib Dem plans. Infact, if I recall correctly Clegg even advocated cutting the NHS through efficiency savings and stuff, which is happening now anyways.

I don't really care whether the fans are involved in the club or not, as I don't really think that will mean the club is run better.

Vince Cable has said he was sceptical about the signing the pledge and I think a lot of what he comes out with is extremely sensible like the investment bank stuff. He was also right on the recession, the only one to predict it and right on Rupert Murdoch. I think he has earned his reputation as a 'wise old head'.

So from that, it doesn't seem like there is damage done to either partner in the coalition as both seem to return. I do see your frustration(is it frustration at the deadlock in government?), something why I have slid towards AMS as a preferred electoral system(like in Scotland) rather than STV. What is going on with the cannabis law reform stuff in the Netherlands? Is it still likely to go through countrywide with the likely new government or will that change?

Well, the manifesto was fully costed and if Nick Clegg was Primer Minister, there would be no 9k tuition fees. But obviously, Nick Clegg isn't Prime Minister and so the Tories came in and had different priorities which had to be accounted for. As Vince Cable said, if there had been a Lib Dem government obviously there would be different priorities and emphasis's. The pledge was wrong though, because it said under any circumstance he would vote against it. The manifesto is different as it is a plan for majority government, something that the Lib Dems probably weren't going to get. Although, I was told by someone that head office went a little mad during the general election as they had a sniff of winning for a week or so... something they hadn't been near for a long time.

I second that. Someone really underwhelming like Bradford or Swindon at home.

Maybe in this country. I'd like to hear from someone who lives in a country that is accustomed to coalitions, say Germany or something to see if it is the same over there.

I know what the election I shall be spoiling my ballot for... the elections for the Police and Crime Commissioners in November. What an absolutely awful idea that is, to politicise the police force and buck the blame onto the opposition when crime policy is failing. I bet turnout is awful as well.

You might not be wrong that he is done, although I still don't sense any real appetite to get rid of him from Lib Dem members, as the feeling is we will get battered no matter who is leader. And that may be so, but that doesn't mean that the Liberal Democrats can't hold their head high for the achievements that have happened, for example the income tac allowance, and the pupil premium, and just this week with Vince Cables investment bank. However, all of this will of course be overshadowed by those policies which are more conservative in nature, but which have been lumbered on Clegg as if he would have done it if he were in a majority government. Much of the Liberal Democrats unpopularity stems, in my opinion, from peoples inability to understand coalition. Though even on some of the losses, like Tuition Fees and the NHS, I feel that the outcome was a lot better thanks to Liberal soothing of Tory right wing policy. And just as a side note, I met Clegg earlier this year and he came across as a very decent man genuinely interested in what people had to say. I liked him a lot. Now for a tangent, based on Pap's assessment of tuition fees policy! Just think of what might have happened to tuition fees if this was a pure conservative government. The tories were signed up to the Browne report, which recommended lifting the cap entirely on fees with the likely result it would be 12k. And that might be 12k without the generous repayment scheme currently in place. There is much I disagree with the policy, but to say the new system triples the burden on undergraduates(such as me from next week!) is utterly wrong. For it to be correct, they would be having to pay it all back 3 times quicker. Infact, under the new system you don't start paying it back until you earn over 21k, as opposed to 15k under the old system and you actually end up paying back less over your lifetime if you remain in a job of a lesser salary. It is basically a graduate tax and they just should have called it that. There are of course weaknesses to the policy, I vehemently disagree with the marketisation of the university sector allowing different institutions to compete on price as I think it could cloud peoples judgements on what course to pick(the right one or the cheaper one?), as well as enshrining a proper two tier system; even more so than is in place today. However, as most unis are just charging '9k', this concern hasn't really materialised. But I still think a graduate tax would be better than the current arrangement, as it would eliminate the extremely bad communication that took place over this policy. Back to the Lib Dems, and specifically Clegg. I don't think he made stupid promises(in plural, the pledge is a separate issue for what has been explained at length by lib dems in the media) at all. His manifesto was based on a Liberal Democrat majority, so of course compromises would have to reached and some policies ditched. But I don't think it'll make much different, I think the Lib Dems will get a major bashing at the next election. They always ride low inbetween elections, so I think they will probably come out with about 30ish seats and maybe something around 16 or 17 percent and will probably form a coalition with Labour. NB:The conservatives won't win the next election, they shot themselves in the foot over lords reform, and now won't get their boundary changes required for their 2015 victory. They must be livid that the Cameron experiment has failed. After all those years of pretending to be cuddly, and care about the environment and social issues such as gay marriage and now they still won't have won an election in over 20 years come 2015. If I were in conservative strategy right now, I'd be panicking big time.

Did Gazzaniga have any saves to do tonight?

Who do we want in the next round? I think the most underwhelming fixture possible. Swindon away or something like that.

Job done.