Verbal
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Posts posted by Verbal
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It's wrong to lock people up in big concrete buildings and not let them out too, that's kind of the point of a punishment. They don't like it.
Anyway, if you commit murder knowing there is a death penalty, it's your choice. You are quite litterally taking your life in your own hands. You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't kill someone, then say "it's wrong to kill, don't kill me"
You're trivialising BTF's point. The question of whether we do or do not have the death penalty is fundamentally a question about what kind of moral codes we live by as a country.
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It's not just about wealth, it's more to do with gangs and crime culture. Are the young people shooting each other in the streets of Washington fighting over loathes of bread and warm clothing? No of course not.
The only way you could realistically test the deterant theory is to have two competely identical societies, one with the death penalty and one without. Or you could ask 1,000,000 murderers if the death penalty would have put them off. If one of them says yes, it is a deterant.
You're just setting up an impossible test in order to prove your point.
The simple fact is there is a vast pool of evidence from the 'natural experiments' I've mentioned, that demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is not a deterrent.
I assure you gang culture is NOT limited to DC, or South Central LA, or other northern conurbations. It is in fact brutally common in rural areas - if not more so. (I can give you not only chapter and verse on this, but some hideously gruesome photographic evidence of it from something I'm working on right now.)
Most murders, wherever they are committed in the US, are related in some way to drugs and gang/gun culture. The demographics on this are simply overwhelming.
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benji
were you "unsure" when harold shipman was sent down...?
You're not following benjii's argument. He's saying there needs to be 'no doubt' in the event that a prisoner is executed. Shipman was not.
In any case, laws are not built around single cases, under the old legal adage that 'hard cases make bad laws.'
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It's not a case of being mentally enfeebled, it's more of a cultural difference. You just don't get anywhere near the levels of gang warefare in places like Vermont and Rhode Island that you would in the poorer parts of Detroit, Dallas, Phoenix, Vegas, Chicago, Washington DC, NYC or Baltimore.
You can't really draw comparisons between Vermont with 2.6 murders per 100,000 and Detroit with 45. It's like saying a higher proportion of people are killed fighting in Afghanistan than were killed at the West Ham - Millwall game a few weeks ago. Kevlar jackets and helmets do not make you safer, so our soldiers would be better off wearing hoodies and tracksuits.
I think the death penalty would provide a deterant to a small but significant number of people who could potentially commit murder. If it dropped the UK murder rate by 1 in 100,000 people, then 600 fewer families a year wouldn't get torn appart. Try telling them their loss is insignificant.
Well there's a really simple test you can do to see if you're right. Instead of taking the case of New York State, take states which DO have the death penalty, but are not only much poorer than Texas, but have similar 'cultures'.
You can look at Mississippi, Alabama, New Mexico (the poorest of all) and many others in the southern belt. They ALL have lower execution rates than the fry-one-a-minute Texas. And lower murder rates.
These facts have nothing whatever to do with the feelings of the families of murder victims.
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You do have a point. For 2007, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty States was 5.5, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.1. However I think that has more to do with the states which don't have the death penalty being generally more affluent. States like Vermont, Rhone Island, Hawaii and Maine. Texas and New York are different to the point that they might aswell be two completely different countries.
You can fiddle the stats to show anything. New Jersey has no death penalty and Newark has a murder rate of 37 per 100,000. If you don't believe it's a deterant then fine, but it's not my main reason for supporting the death penalty in certain cases.
But you can't bring socio-economic arguments into the deterrent question. Logically, either the death penalty is a deterrent or it is not. You can't plausibly argue that a poor Texan, for example, is so mentally enfeebled by his poverty as to not understand - or understand less well - the idea that if he kills someone, he'll face the chop. In fact, if this were true, even in Texas you are actually not allowed to execute people, because by definition, they wouldn't be mentally competent (and this is a national decision, imposed as the result of a US Supreme court ruling.)
It's not that I don't believe that the death penalty is a deterrent. It just isn't. This is not 'fiddling the statistics'. They are incontrovertible. (and we're not even getting into the question of why the US has by far the highest murder rate in the western world, despite the death penalty.)
In the US, very few people bother with this argument any more because they know the argument is lost. What they focus on is the old frontier idea of justice being an eye for an eye. Which partly explains why more blacks end up on death row than whites.
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Who's to say what the murder rate in the US would be if it weren't for the death penalty. I'm not saying it would make a massive difference, but that's not my main reason for supporting it. Even if 5 innocent people a year are saved from an untimely death by the deterant, that's worth the lives of 50 murderers IMO.
So here I am looking for some quiet refuge from the rabid insanity of the BNP-sponsored EDL thread, and what do I find? Perfect formation knee-jerking - complete with self-defeating logic.
What if those five innocent people a year were convicted of a capital offence?
And here's an awkward comparison. Not all states in the US have the death penalty. The most enthusiastic state killer in the US, by far, is Texas. Their murder rate is 5.5 per 100,000. New York state does not have the death penalty. Its murder rate is 5 per 100,000.
Texas not only leads the US in state-sanctioned killings, it has executed three times as many people as its two closest competitors since 1976, and four times more than any other state.
Yet Texas has consistently had one of the highest murder rates in the country, demonstrating that the death penalty does not have a general deterrent effect. The three largest cities in Texas have murder rates among the top 25 in the country, while none of the largest cities in New York State are in the top 25.
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Actually, this is now getting petty. and I feel like this is all going round in depressing circles. I'm out of here.
Good luck - those of you who are not all mouth and no trousers - with your support for the racist cowards of the EDL/BNP.
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how did you guess...
no need for that was there
No need for what? You mean no need for you to suggest that I would approve of someone being attacked?
And since you raised the 'self-defence' argument against that splendid fellow with his sex face on while kicking an Asian, why are you not doing the same for the Asians fighting?
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does this look reasonable..? im sure it does to you...
Of course not. After ALL I've ****ing said, do you think I approve of violence?
You're 'sure' I would approve? What the **** do you mean?
By the same token, TDD, I bet you can't walk past an Asian coming out of a mosque without thinking: 'If I was surrounded by my fathead friends, I'd beat your ****ing brains out.'
That sound reasonable?
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verbal...do you know if that we self defence..if it was, very reasonable..
Don't make me laugh. These racist fatheads went looking for a fight.
What gets me about the BNP/EDL sympathisers on here - and I'm not talking about you TDD - is that they drone on and on about a tiny demonstration months and months ago, that was peaceful, certainly, but also objectionable.
And yet was anyone on here remotely interested in discussing the Plane Bombers' trail. If there was a thread about it, I missed it. And yet that was of FAR greater significance than a piddling little demo that in Luton that was instantly disowned and denounced by the vast majority of Asians in the town.
Now why would that be? It's because the BNP-controlled EDL - and the BNP themselves - have decided to exploit that small incident for all its worth as a kind of cause celebre of racial insult against whites.
They then place their internet generals in control of EDL, and recruit their foot soldiers from the far-right fatheads that hang around the fringes of football clubs. They then go looking to beat the sh!t out of any Asians they can find - smashing them, their cars, their shops and businesses.
Furthermore, the attempt by the BNP to raise recruits for the EDL by posting links to Facebook groups via football site forums leads me also to think that the OP is a bigger part of this than he is letting on.
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The placards at this protest seem reasonable to me.
As does this, wouldn't you agree?
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Yeah yeah yeah Verbal - trust you to highlight the obscure & the isolated "nutjob" examples.
If I'd have been living in Hungerford in 1987 - Michael Ryan might have gunned me down in the streets. If I was gay (which I'm not by the way - honest!) - the 'Nail bomber' might have killed me in a Soho pub bombing had I been there - the wrong place at the wrong time. An Argentinian bomb from a French Super Etendard or an A-4 Skyhawk never had my name on it in 1982 either - but others there weren't so lucky.
Ifs. Buts. Maybe's.
The fact still remains that - isolated nutjobs apart - I'm more likely to lose my life in this day & age thanks to a muslim extremist bomber. I spent a weekend in London the other week as it happens at the Landmark Hotel, Marylebone. I had to take taxi cabs all weekend because the missus point blank refuses to take the tube anymore - ever since the London bombings.
Now - I like to think I'm a fairly educated bloke - someone who's lived in Australia for 3 years, spent another 12 years in Her Majesty's Forces, spent weeks in Karachi Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, survived the Falklands war, spent a year of my life in the Middle East during the Iran-Iraq war, and was in Mogadishu, Somalia just before the 'Black Hawk Down' incident & shortly before the place fell into rebel hands. Infact - we were the last British warship to visit Somalia before war broke out there. I've even got my poxy South Atlantic medal that I gave to mum to keep as she was more proud of her 'little soldier' than I ever was. My dad spent 26 years as a submariner in the Royal Navy and I followed in his footsteps.
I'm not rascist in the slightest. Never have been & never will be. And I'm switched-on enough to know that yes - there are problems in the UK today with both muslim extremists & white neo-Nazis - as well as political parties trying to stir things up & the odd nutjob solo activist. In the same breath - I'm also switched-on enough to know that the only real danger to me & my family - however small - comes from muslim extremists - whichever way you try to dress it up.
I don't honestly know what the solution is to be fair. Dialogue I guess - and perhaps a change of foreign policy sometime in the future. Look - Verbal - of course I know that it is only a small, miniscule band of muslim fanatics trying to blow me up - but the fact remains I'm not worrying about any other segment of British society today other than them!
Yeah, trust me.
Okay, now maybe - just maybe - we're getting somewhere.
If all you're worried about are the Salafist fanatics, what do you want to do about it?
Do you want to throw in your lot with the racist thugs in the EDL, who are busy beating up middle-aged Asians, smashing the windows of Asian shops, damaging their cars, and generally terrorising them?
Or do you really want to stop the Salafists at source? Because there ARE a number of ways of going about that.
1. Lobby to help moderate Muslims drive the extremists out of their strongholds in some mosques in this country. (And don't go indiscriminately beating the moderate Muslims up. They're the ones who are bravely facing these fanatics down - not you.)
2. Lobby the government to stop the inflow of funds from Saudi Arabia that explicitly supports Salafist activity - 'radical' bookshops, maddrassas, etc.
3. Lobby for more help to Muslim women's organisations trying to fight against the Salafist imposition of draconian limitations on young women, including their forced withdrawal from education, forced marriage, and the imposition of the veil. (My wife has spent some years doing just this.)
4. Campaign for wire-tap evidence to made admissible in British courts, as they are throughout the Western world.
5. Campaign to stop the state funding of Salafist leaders who routinely finance their activities through housing and welfare benefits - and then 'top up' with 'contributions from Saudi Arabia.
6. Insist that government aid programmes to Pakistan in particular be re-purposed to extend state education, available to all, boys AND girls. This will have the effect of weakening the Saudi-financed iron grip that has been extended to the side network of maddrassas in Pakistan, which have been the recruiting ground for new generations of fanatics. (If you think that this is a pipe dream, and that the problem is too entrenched, bear in mind that the extensive Saudi-financed network maddrassas which have been part of the disaster in Pakistan were only created just a little over 20 years ago - by the Western-backed General Zia.)
All of the above and more needs to be done with precision, targeting the actual sources of the problem - not Asians or Muslims in general, whose support you'll/we'll need.
Success with only one or two of the above will have an effect. But if you throw your lot in the the EDL, my guess is that the sense of fear you feel will only be increased, not reduced, by the repeated sights of Asians being beaten by fathead racists up and down the country.
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Well I'm not in any danger of being bombed or blown apart by the IRA anymore - neither am I concerned about being the target of Poles, sikhs, The Welsh or Scots, the French, Italians or the Russians. The only danger I face is from a very small minority of muslim extremists. The EDL, you & me know this too if you're honest with yourself - which brings us back to aintforever's post.
The ONLY danger? Are you sure?
You know about this guy?
His name is Neil Lewington. He is a BNP supporter. He is now serving an indefinite prison sentence for attempting to become the British Timothy McVeigh.
He wanted to murder on a massive scale with an indiscriminate bombing campaign. Of course, he WANTED to kill Asians more than anything.
According to Sky News: ‘The link between his extremist views and interest in explosives was illustrated by a note reading "compressed thermite grenade vs Paki front door".
He also wrote a chilling "mission statement" in which he boasted of two-man hit squads attacking "non-British people" at random.
Lewington told one woman that "the only good Paki was a dead Paki".
Now of course, you may feel safe, because you’re not Asian. But if McVeigh, the Oklamhoma bomber, was his role model, I wouldn’t bet on it.
But I suppose, as you’re not Asian, you won’t have to endure this kind of behaviour, as reported in The Guardian, 12 September, 2009:
'Yet at EDL events, skinheads have raised Nazi salutes and other EDL supporters have chanted racist slogans such as “I hate Pakis more than you”. One protest in Luton in May ended with scores of people attacking Asian businesses, smashing cars and threatening passersby.'
It’s not the sort of company you’d really want to keep.
Is it?
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It's pretty clear to me that it's extremists they oppose...
"We are a non racist and non discriminatory protest group who believe in an integrated and peaceful Britain with one law and one society, respected by all of its members.
The EDL will continue to peacefully protest and highlight the issue of unrestrained Islamic extremism in the UK, unless and until the government take concerted action against those who preach hatred and wish to harm the people of this country."
Obviously their cause attracts BNP nutters but it's a sound cause IMO.
They do not 'attract' the BNP.
The EDL is run by the BNP.
The EDL is a BNP front, nothing more.
And given his 'FaceBook' invitation, The OP of this thread may have something to saying about the following.
From The Times, 10 August 2009:
"Paul Ray, who claims to be one of the founding members of the League, says that the group has been taken over by a cabal of extremists including Chris Renton, whose name appears on the list of BNP members leaked last year."
Renton , from Weston-super-Mare, does indeed appear on the BNP membership list leaked last year. He is the BNP's 'internet guy'.
And it was Renton who designed the EDL's website.
At the forefront of the EDL violence in Birmingham in August was what the Times (15 August 2009) identified as the Casuals United, 'a small army of shirt-sleeved, middle-aged men with beer bellies.'
The Times goes on: 'The members of Casuals United are largely former football hooligans drawn from the terraces.'
And here, as far this thread in particular is concerned, is the worst piece of information:
'The Casuals make full use of modern communications, using social networking websites, notably Facebook, where there are about 40 branches, many of which declare allegiance to various football clubs.'
Friends of yours, bigtone?
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What he said, EDL - just an excuse for scared white boys to smash things up.
BTF is a he with an 's' on the front. Otherwise you got everything right.
And + another 1.
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By that logic, in the 70's & 80's we should have been attending Catholic churches with a quarter of Clove Rock, afterall they used to telephone beforehand !
Covert warnings count for nothing, hiding a message of impending attacks makes you complicit
Covert - by which I mean information is passed anonymously but directly to the police.
And then binned.
By what twisted logic do you get from a warning being given to a warning not being given?
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For years & years & years - radical muslim extremists (like Abu Hamza & a dozens of others like him) stood on the streets of London & other cities spouting hatred & abuse against Britain & British foreign policy. No-one - least of all this gutless excuse of a Government - did anything about it. Many mosques around the UK had/have extremist nutters doing their utmost to radicalise young asians into blowing-up the tubes & London buses - and no-one did feck all about it - least of all this clueless inept Government & let alone other decent-living asians listening to these so-called preachers. Soldiers returning from Afghanistan are greeted to a tirade of abuse & obscene placards from a group of nutters on the streets in Luton. No-one - least of all this pathetic Government did anything about it. The police just stood there looking totally stupid - completely overwhelmed - and ended up arresting one person - a white 18-year old local lad who had the guts to shout obsceneties back at the demonstrators - and rightfully so.
Now the way I see it - many ordinary everyday folk have had enough. The Government don't appear to want to pass laws on the matter & simply turn a blind eye. It's no wonder then that the EDL are growing fast & political parties such as the BNP are winning votes left, right & centre. Many, many good ordinary everyday folk have had enough.
So what's the answer Verbal? Dialogue? New laws? A change of Government foreign policy? You appear to have all the answers. What's the solution?
Way to go, Mr dot, with missing the point I was making!
To reiterate, are people really so pea-brained as to commit a mirror image of the offence caused by the Luton Loonies? That is, to stigmatise, victimise, intimidate and assault people in a fit of irrational rage.
Do you really think that the Asians who found themselves in the midst of an assault aimed at them were suicide bombers? do you really think they - by the colour of the skin or their religious beliefs - were somehow complicit?
No. Which gets to the heart of this. People on here complain long and loud when they think they're getting tarnished with the 'racist' label. But the reality is they're aligning themselves - or even like bigtoe, actively seeking recruits - with an organisation that revels in a desire to intimidate Asians.
That is racist. Period.
And let's be clear about what the EDL are NOT doing. If you or they or anyone else is so incensed by the actions of the Luton loonies, then take your protests to them directly. They and their organisation has been well publicised. They are not in hiding.
But the EDL won't. Because they're not only racist thugs. They are cowards. It's so much easier to intimidate middle-aged Asian women visiting their mosque or out shopping.
And it serves the EDL's purpose better. They are racist agent provocateurs who want to create their own rivers of blood as a recruiting sergeant for the BNP and other cretins even further to the right.
This is not about a small, peaceful but objectionable demo months and months ago. It's about fooling people like you into signing up, at least in principle, to a sustained campaign of intimidation and violence against innocent people.
As to your comment about the government unwilling to pass laws - are your freaking SERIOUS? Britain has one of the most draconian anti-terror laws in the western world. These laws are so extensive, and so extensively misused that there's a backlog of cases at the European Court - and not from the 'usual suspects'.
If you followed the recent court cases against the plane bombers, you'd have noticed that juries have repeatedly failed to convict on what seem like open-and-shut cases against the idiots. Why? Because the anti-terror laws are not extensive enough? Because the juries are packed with Asian sympathisers? Hardly.
No, the simple answer is that in Britain, uniquely in the Western world, surveillance evidence from the intelligence services is not admissible in court.
It's an utterly absurd situation, and is letting dangerous people back on to the streets. But this ban on wire-tap evidence is not the doing of a Labour government - or any other shade. It's the result of specific pressure from the intelligence services themselves, who want to keep their cloak of secrecy as all-encompassing as possible. It drives everyone crazy - not least the Americans, and other European states, who routinely use wire-tap evidence to secure convictions.
If you want to talk about people actively engaged in warning the authorities about terrorist plots, then you should say a HUGE thank you to those Asian community leaders, family and acquaintances who increasingly are shopping suspcious and dangerous individuals to the authorities. Sometimes, as in 7/7, these covert warnings to the authorities have been completely ignored by the police, but subsequently acknowledged.
So if you're tempted to man the barricades against innocent Asians outside a mosque, or if like bigtoe you're itching to burn it down, might I suggest instead you take a nice box of Ambala sweets, and say thank you. Nicely.
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So are we going shifts then? Rabid racists in the morning, loony lefties at night?
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I find it equally if not more insulting that i have to explain why im so angry with the scum who killed our lads,and have family waiting in our towns to abuse the men that fight to allow them to live here to carryon abusing them!But you carry on supporting them!I couldnt live with that on my conscience.
Damn those Asians!
You know, the funny thing about you, bigtoe, is that you exhibit EXACTLY the same kind of noodleheaded rage as the Luton loonies - so uncontrollable you appear to be ready to top yourself.
For the Luton loonies, all the British carry the collective guilt for the actions of the baby-murdering soldiers. For you and your racist pals, all Asians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis (exterminate as appropriate) carry the collective guilt for the actions of a tiny handful of death-cult idiots.
Do you not see the teeny weeny irony?
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Them? Who's 'them'?
I assume you're talking about the League of Extraordinary Racists.
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Interesting.
MLT's book is on sale at Heathrow in T5, so it isn't just a local special. Had a bog display and picture as well, and was on special offer at 12.99
Tough call but afraid Dan Brown won, better cure for jet lag here in Florida, youch 15 hours time difference since Sunday....
On sale in P*mpey too? Impressive.
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Ooh this is great. I think we've got a liberal lefty tree-hugging groove going on here.
Far (right) out!!!!
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Jeff,you are a total ****,i tried not to reply to w**kers like you because i have expressed my opinion once,dont need to repeat it to simpletons that cant be arsed to read my original statement.and go off on one about things that have never been mentioned!If you dont like this topic feck off to something that you do like!
Just to clarify then, the EDL are racist thugs. Glad we got that worked out.
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Why do you assume that it has to be about race? The Shoe Bomber and Exeter Bomber were white, but still extremests.
At Alexandra High School in Tipton there have been full blown race fights, fuelled by comments made to pupils whose brothers/fathers are/have been serving in Afganistan about hoping that they come back in body bags.
http://www.expressandstar.com/2009/09/18/pupils-are-suspended-after-fights-near-school/
Previously Muslim parents had asked the authorities, and the West Mids police to take action against the extremeists who were targeting schoolkids.
I visit one of the local mosques after prayers on Fridays as part of my job and ordinary Muslims are scared, but not of the Far Right Brits, but of the Far Right Muslims. They fear of being tarred with the same brush as the "Taliban" and of speaking out against them.
What I do find ning boggling ist sot some on here seem to think Neo-Fascist Isla thn the streets = free speech but scream like hysterical children when their opponents take to the streets.
I happen to agree that the far right are playing into the hands of the far right Islamists but to dismiss, out out of hand, the concerns of a large swathe of the population of these isles is ignorant and best and suggests a closed mind.
It is about race, regardless of the ethnic identity of particular individuals. The EDL is racist and the Salafists are racists. (Richard Reid, the shoe bomber is not white, by the way).
The EDL are racist agent provocateurs trying to create their own rivers of blood and the Salafists are actually disgustingly contemptuous of whites.
Who are the 'some on here' that you talk about? The usual straw men?
And you're wrong about the far right playing into the hands of Salafists - they both need each other in this particular fight, and they both know it. Both know that violence on the streets is a recruiting sergeant.
The victims are the people caught in the middle of it. Because of the chosen battlegrounds, almost all of them are Asian.
Can you really be happy with that?
Lethal injection,the best way?
in The Lounge
Posted · Edited by Verbal
I've never been able to master the multi-quote thingy, so bear with me, if you don't mind.
First off, Washington DC does not have the death penalty. Having just worked in the South Bronx, let me also tell you that not all of New York City has been Disneyfied - the Bronx is still officially listed as the toughest set of precincts in the US.
New Jersey does not have the death penalty. There are plenty of cities in NJ which fall under the heading of 'no picnic'. New Mexico this year abolished the death penalty. And Massachusetts, which includes some pretty violently gun-ridden cities, does not have the death penalty. Of those that do, two - New Hampshire and Kansas - have not sent anyone to the gas chamber (or whatever delectable method is the choice du jour) since the death penalty was re-allowed by the US Supreme Court in 1976..
So you see your division of milk-and-honey states with no death penalty versus violent-mayhem states with it just doesn't hold up.
In a way, I'm not worried one way or the other whether you agree; I'm just telling you the facts. There is no credible evidence that the death penalty in the US is a deterrent. However much you state your opinion, you haven't offered any statistics that decisively or even remotely support your position. You can and will of course continue to believe what you will.
I don't need to say that I am 100% sure that the prospect of the death penalty has never deterred anyone from killing - I'm saying that when you look at the evidence, the numbers as a whole say that's not the case. The fact that you could find some near-murderer to say he hesitated doesn't alter the fact that the number of families grieving for the loss of their brothers, mothers, sisters or fathers won't be less.
In fact, it seems you are MORE likely to be a murder victim in a state with the death penalty. Isn't that horrifying? And doesn't that make you stop and think - that maybe, just maybe, the death penalty is actually an integral part of the degradation of life in those states like Texas which fry people with such enthusiasm?
So if you apply your own test, shouldn't you revise your opposition to the death penalty? Because the figures tell the story as clear as day that there are more grieving families in states with the death penalty than not. If you want to save one innocent person's life, and the evidence goes against your beliefs, what's worth more: your beliefs or someone's life?
As for BTF's point, I really think you're talking past her. There aren't many POV's, as you call them, in which murder is right. So we're agreed on that. It's virtually impossible to prove beyond ALL doubt, as you say, that the accused committed the crime (even those who've confessed to capital crimes or murders in the past have been innocent for one reason or another). So you're presumably accepting the effective abolition of the death penalty.
What you're left with, after all the arguments you've inadvertently trashed, is a peroration that I'm afraid I don't understand, about how a murderer is really a suicide. I think, on this last point, you may have not left room for the complexity of the human condition. Do you ever go to the movies? It's an almost universal narrative - filmmakers are and always have been deeply fascinated by the incredibly multi-faceted circumstances that lead towards a murder.
Besides, I could think of lots of reasons for not killing someone who let it be known they choose to die. For one thing, I don't want to be accused of murder.