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I've gone for the PS4 for now. Out of the two, it's easily the most technically capable. It can run games at full HD that only run at 720p on the XBox One. There may be some killer applications out that'll convince me to pick up a One later on, but until then - I've gone for the console I consider the "better" machine. I bought a 360 around launch and loved that, so this isn't really bias. I just think MS might have dropped the ball in splitting the focus of their product, with gamers losing out.

I've indulged a lot of your off-topic enquiries. Thanks for doing the same on this one, a good post, and one that I find a lot of agreement with. You're right about the distillation of performers into icons. Marilyn Monroe is similar to Chaplin, in that everyone knows who she is, even if they haven't seen any of her movies. I'm also willing to buy Sinatra and Presley as the essential components of their respective creative teams. Were they creators? Definitely in terms of creating a performance, and building rapport with the audience, but the songs they sang came from another's head. Neither act has done anything wrong; all the song-writers were credited, but both will creatively play second fiddle to writer-performers, at least in my estimation. I assess bands today the same way. Broadly, I can buy the idea that performers can be creators. Joe Cocker's cover of With A Little Help from My Friends is a cover of a Beatles song, but the difference in performance and arrangement is so pronounced that you could argue that something has been created. No-one is under any illusions that Joe Cocker wrote the song, and it's assessed in context - a great derived work rather than an entirely original creation. We're not banging his doors down asking for Sgt Peppers 2. Are stand-ups who buy gags without attribution in the process of creation, or are they buying in competence? If it's the latter, it's a worry - because comedy by committee can lose the laughs all too quickly. The comics know they're doing wrong by not crediting, or squirreling away their help into vague categories like "program associate". I think at the very least, we can agree that the audience is being intentionally duped by the comic. Authenticity is a big thing for a lot of people. Stewart Lee compares stand-ups who use unattributed writers to athletes that take performance-enhancing drugs. It's a provocative comparison, but it falls into the whole "pretending something you're not" category, like if I decided to wear heel lifts to be less of a shortarse. I very much enjoyed your speculation on the future; can't say I agree with all of it, but equally, I'm really not sure how much technology has changed the landscape.

Both.

So it's Chrimbo +3, and I've had some time to get to know my new console. Games-wise, I'm rocking Resogun, FIFA 14, NBA 2K14, Killzone and Injustice : Gods Among Us. Juvenile Unit #2 and I have played quite a bit of FIFA. Plugged the camera in and had a go on Gamesroom, which is an interesting demo of the tech. Tons of little robots jump out of your pad and run around your living room in one game. It's nothing like as impactful as Wii Sports was back in the day, but I can see some fun applications for smaller kids with it. Unplugged as soon as I'd finished. Nice to be able to do that. I want a PS4, not 1984 If I'm being completely honest, I'm waiting for much bigger games to come out, but this seems to be a much more solid launch than the 360, the last console I picked up at launch. Some decent examples of most genres are available, although I refuse to pay £50 for a fkn LEGO game - it's like running Solitaire on a gaming PC That said, having a lot of fun with FIFA and Resogun specifically.

Good man, Percy. You caught the R Herring.

Ah, jolly good - some recognition that the appeal of performers operates on a sliding window. They'll be forgotten, as will Ant and Dec, as will most performers. The myriad stars of any particular era are condensed into a few exemplary cases. Over the long-term, humanity respects creators. It's why we know who Shakespeare is and yet, most are unaware of the actors that performed his works back in the day. Perhaps that has all changed with the shift to the video age, but I doubt it. While I acknowledge that we've got outstanding actors from each decade, most of the talent that operated around them has faded from view, unregarded. I remember watching shows like Mr Ed and Green Acres when I was a nipper. That stuff isn't on the telly anymore; shows are more likely to be remade for modern audiences than re-run as originally shown, making the sliding window even smaller. I share your view that M&W probably won't be on the box in 2075, but I'd lay decent money on a fair few of our novelists being well known at the same time, just as we celebrate long dead authors from our past. Is that an example of the veneration of the creator I suggest or simply a recognition of the type of documents that survived from those times? Moving forward, it's perfectly conceivable that the sheer volume of video will have the pendulum swinging the other way, but so far, the brief history of video has shown that all but the brightest stars fade from view.

Tell you what. Before I accede to your demands for an answer, how's about you provide a few candid answers to those questions of mine you've avoided? I think I've been pretty comprehensive so far. Do feel free to pull me up if there is something I've missed.

Ah, the poor man's Concorde around the world! How long do you reckon NYE will last from your perspective?

Repeats are a b!tch, kid. Trust me, I know - but they're all you deserve when you're in re-run mode yourself. I was in the uncomfortable position of having to make your case for you. Forgive me if I did a good job. Perhaps next time, you can articulate your thoughts instead of letting me go first. Of course I accept that M&W are still recognised artists; they pulled 28m viewers in their heyday. This year, they got 2.08m, which is more than decimation in the ratings stakes. My kids know who Vic and Bob are, but they don't know who Morecambe and Wise are. M&W have got fans among the older crowd. I've got an appreciation for what they do, but I don't find them laugh out loud funny. When everyone who has a relevant living memory of M&W being on the telly is gone from this Earth, do you think they'll still be on every Christmas? Can the re-runs sustain public interest? More people know who Ant and Dec are right now. You mention conspiracy because you're grasping; a shaking man grasping for the same cure-all pill that has done f*ck all for you in the past. Your defence of stand-ups using uncredited writers is that "it's not illegal", adultery is another example of something that isn't illegal but some could consider immoral. Let's move on. I'd invite anyone interested to view Lee's views on where writers fit in. You make him sound like Alan Partridge begging for a second series. I see the grasping continues with your red Herring. Your debating position is "sins of the comedy partner" at this point. Believe it or not, some people do give a sh!t about correct creative attribution. It's why the sh!t hit the fan when Milli Vanilli were found not to be singing and why people don't suddenly assume that football manager "autobiographers" that employ ghost writers were dormant literary talents all along, and why no-one thinks Ringo is a master of word and song. FWIW, if Herring had written some of Russell Howard's show, I think he should have had a writing credit. Same thing for Lee on Little Britain - sources would be nice, guv. Their potential hypocrisy doesn't invalidate the issues raised. Writer-performers get the most respect from me in stand-up, and I make no apologies for that. Those who pretend to be such but outsource get the least, and I make no apologies for that either.

Ah, you're thrashing now, akin to a crazed hillbilly being put in a sleeper hold by his burlier and more sensible brother. You thought you had your point when I mentioned Ant and Dec, shot the usual boll*cks from the hip and have done yourself up again. Consequently, the order of the day is a complete lack of humility and attempt to steer the subject somewhere, anywhere else. I've qualified all of my M&W points throughout the thread. Your standard response is to give us nothing, and yet insist I know nothing. The go-to example of something which can be legally okay but morally wrong. Keep up. What's a good example of where it isn't possible? Fair point. Not qualified, but hardly in a position to argue. No mucker. You're bereft of ideas, have given yourself a hiding, and are employing your tired old tactic of mentioning the conspiracy word in an attempt to invalidate any opinion I have elsewhere. You complain of my prejudices but exhibit your own in the very same sentence. Nice. I'll listen to the Adam Bloom podcast, ta. CB Fry. Bankrupt until the end.

This is an object lesson in how the prejudicial bias of the receiver can twist the content of a message. I wasn't sneering. It may have escaped your notice, and they may not be your cup of tea, but Ant and Dec are a popular double act that enjoy near ubiquity on the highest profile shows on ITV. Their appeal lies very much in their banter and on-screen one-up-manship, something that was a hallmark of M&W's chemistry. Besides, I'm not the only person to have made this point. Perhaps you should contact the authors of these respective articles and tell them they know f*ck all about comedy. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9974435/Ant-and-Dec-are-the-new-Morecambe-and-Wise.html http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/tv/3318465/Ant-and-Dec-are-new-Eric-and-Ernie.html http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/fergus-kelly/382040/A-reminder-of-Morecambe-and-Wise-on-Saturday-night-TV Arf. You're quite taken with the "corner" thing, aren't you? It was a failed attempt to arouse some honest debate from you instead of the usual failed character assassination. Please keep spinning it; especially now that you're aware of its provenance. Is this an attempt to open up my eyes to the world of possibility? I think you'll find that's a question I posed in the very first post of this thread. I'm not sure why you're repeating a point in the 34th post that was floated in the 1st. Adultery isn't a crime, but it can cause certain people to get upset. Wouldn't you, as someone who presumably appreciates writer-performers, want to know which comics doing the circuit fell into that category? The issue is about creative credit, not the renumerative kind. Again, more pathetic every time you have to wheel it out. Come back and talk to us about comedy next time, yeah?

I've seen Flying Circus recently. It is dated, and even the Pythons have dismissed a lot of it as unfunny. The movies are timeless though, especially Life Of Brian. I've no problem with M&W's setup because it was transparent. Anyone producing comedy at the time would be aware of Braben's role as originator of the content.

I'm sure it has gone on loads, but it doesn't make it right, whatever medium it happens in. It gladdens the soul to see people like yourself itching to set the record straight. Credit should be attributed correctly. The problem with the gag writing arrangements is that nothing is transparent. We don't know the extent to which others are involved, but if they're directly responsible for something that ends up in the act, they deserve recognition. I'm a freelance computer programmer. When I make a sale, my customers have an expectation, always met, that it'll be me doing the work. A chap I replaced was sub-contracting work to others, spending his own time in the office checking his stock portfolio. He got found out and the business took the view that they would rather hire a single expert than a middleman controlling offshore interests. He feigned competence, basically. Now if he'd have been upfront from the start he may not have gotten the job, but everyone would have understood the situation. Same principle applies for creative credit. As long as the situation is understood and transparent, no-one gives a toss.

Oh dear. We're here again, are we? The issue is very simple. It's about people taking credit for work that is not their own. You're okay with that. I'm not. Everything else, including your beloved Morecambe & Wise, fall outside the scope of the OP. Seeing as you are entirely unwilling to use your vast knowledge to deconstruct Morecambe & Wise, let me fill you in. They were a double act that are most famous for doing variety shows on the TV. A huge part of their fame is down to timing. They operated in a three channel world, and were able to command huge ratings with their Christmas special, but also, they were operating at the end of an era - one of the last such acts of their kind doing a variety show. They're fondly remembered by many who watched them at the time. Vic and Bob directly cite M&W as a big influence, as does Miranda "fall off a chair" Hart. Ant and Dec are seen as modern day successors. I know you're busy explaining electrons to wasps, but do feel free to chip in with your own assessment of their impact whenever you're ready. Your entire strategy on this thread has been to imply that I'm thick as sh!t or pulling my opinions from magazine articles you happen to have read. "Uninformed", "sixth form common room opinions" and the suggestion that I'm a less capable learner than a winged insect - despite the fact you've offered very little in else in the way of argument. You're probably past the point where you recognise that this is insulting.

Yeah, but you're a married man, Kev. Imagine if you were a single spod or just emerging from a breakup. This sh!t would be golden. Perhaps that's their market; the loveless depressed.

So at the denouement of all your bluster, you don't really have strong opinions about it? I think you should get yourself a new hobby. Stalking my posts and banging out insults without actually having any strong convictions can't be edifying.

Your continued contrarianism is extremely funny. Can I ask what you're arguing here? One of your comedy heroes has claimed that other, more successful comedians, are employing writers and not crediting them. Incidentally, I've been a big fan of Lee and Herring myself. I've listened to Herring's podcasts for years, including the one you mention. You can't point to any enduring examples of M&W, apart from the fact that you know who they are despite not seeing them yourself. If you're so interested and knowledgeable in the topic, I have to ask - why on Earth would you cite M&W as a potential influence of Armando Ianucci? For starters, you've never seen their work. Second, it's perfectly apparent that Ianucci is drawing from a different source than light entertainers of the 1970s. Doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about, or at the very least, you're prepared to talk about subjects you know nowt about. I'm not claiming to be a comedy expert, but I'm into all the same things as you claim to be. On Lee and Herring, I'm geeky enough to know about the huge spat they had with Patrick Marber, funnily enough, over a similar theme ( the misattribution of talent to others ). If you're as much of a fan of comedy as you claim to be, how do you defend stand-ups who pretend that someone else's work is their own?

I really don't have an issue with someone else being the comedic vehicle for a writers' talent, as long as the writer is credited. Same thing for music. Not all songwriters are going to be effective singers, so they'll sell their songs to people who can actually sing. No problem there either. I do take issue with people attributing the success of others to themselves. On all of Elvis' big tunes, or indeed in any celebrated sitcom you'd care to mention, the writers are credited. Officially, Whitehall, Boyle and McIntyre all write their own stand-up without help. No-one else is given any credit, despite that not actually being the case.

They competently play music that'll be seen as good by some, forever uncool by others. I listened to their first album, which was alright. Something different, innit? Their parents are head of the Vineyard Church movement in the UK.

They say the emptiest vessels make the most noise. It's clear that you've no real interest in original question posed, and no evidence apart from the fact that people vaguely remember them as to their enduring longevity. As a matter of interest, have you ever heard of The Intelligence Men, The Magnificent Two or That Riviera Touch? What about Life of Brian, Holy Grail or The Meaning Of Life? The first set of films starred Eric Morecambe and Ernie Wise, and were written by others. You don't need me to tell you who did the other three films. There's your endurance and longevity right there. Besides, we're not even comparing like with like. M&W never pretended to write all their own stuff. Whitehall, Boyle and McIntyre do.

I specifically asked what you felt they contributed to comedy. We've learned here that their massive contribution is being remembered by yourself even though you didn't watch them at the time. They were popular double acts that appealed to the masses in variety shows. Have you at least watched them now, or are you genuinely arguing the merits of an act you've never seen? Iannucci considers Woody Allen his comedy hero,btw.

You're assuming the supply of games is going to roll on forever there, Col. Both those platforms will be dropped in the coming year, pitched at the budget end of the crowd. The only question is how much commitment each platform holder has behind their current-gen consoles. The original XBox was dropped like a bad habit as soon as the 360 was released. The PS3 was released a year later, and PS2 stuff was still selling that year. Ultimately the current-gen will be swept away, just as it has every time a new generation comes in. You'll buy a new console in the next two years.

I'm mostly doing the fanboi stuff for the lols, Col. As I've said all along, the minute the XBox One has a killer application I'm interested in, one will be under my TV. On a pure bang for buck basis, the PS4 offers more right now.

So erm, are you actually saying that Morecambe and Wise and The Two Ronnie's were ever stand-up comedians?

What if you want the best graphics on a next generation console, irrespective of manufacturer?