pap

Yeah, go find that and link it please. My views on immigration have remained pretty consistent.

Like many in our country, I am appalled by the concept of honour killings, arranged marriage and caste systems. I'd also agree that a failure to integrate has been a key facilitator in these things happening in the first place. Closed communities are the very kinds of places where such things can happen under the radar. I knew a couple of girls at school that had their lives almost wrecked by their parents, and in both cases, they were effectively disowned for wanting to join Western society. I'm pleased to say that the pair of them are now married, happy and with kids. Incidentally, they both married white British blokes, which suggests to me that integration over the long term isn't a problem. You are correct though; all of those things are problems, and I agree with you - we need to be better at looking it in the eye. At the same time, we also need to recognise the stuff the Islamic world has done right, or the values that they bring that are worth adopting. Perhaps the biggest immigrant influence in my life is the imperative to look after your whole family and respect your elders. Incidentally, those are values that used to be widely espoused here too.

We've never tried before, but you bring up a good example. Saudi Arabia is a relatively oppressive place to live compared to Western norms. Less oppressive regimes have been the target for regime change, but Saudi are our mates, so we say nothing at the cost of being labelled hypocrites. Moral relativism is nothing new, and doesn't have to be a million miles away either. The Presbyterian community in Northern Ireland used to protest at shops that opened on a Sunday. Transplant these issues into our own society and of course, it's wholly unacceptable. I wonder if we have the moral right to condemn countries for their social policies when we're nowhere near perfect ourselves.

I've been listening to American Ride by Willie Nile. Singer songwriter rocky folky stuff. To be honest, thought it was going to go the way of the Dawes album; nice ear candy for a bit but leaving a bitter taste in them afterwards. I'm still really enjoying it. The songs are very ear-wormy. I like this one in particular. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10eisyIBJA4 Recommended to the older chaps on the forum in particular, but anyone with their music tastes set to eclectic will enjoy it, I reckon. Metacritic the source as always. I'm just not cool enough to get my music from the kids anymore.

Russia is catching up. I watch a load of Russia Today, an alternative source of propaganda from the usual. It's obvious stuff; pretty much every story is attacking Western values and/or policy. They're actively trying to push the Russian worldview as an alternative to Western dominated media. The US hawks were wrong to count Russia out in the superpower stakes. Whatever the rumblings about China, Russia is still in a strong position to dominate.

Yeah, but isn't that fair enough? A Russian homosexual could come here and conduct his or her private affairs without fear of persecution. An English homosexual going to Russia knows that promoting such a lifestyle to kids is a criminal offence. You've got dubai phil and all the other ex-pats in the Arab world having to observe and respect the traditions of their host countries. When in Rome, etc?

The legal distinction is quite different, although I'm not sure we can be particularly condemning. There are many in our own country who would love to see similar laws enacted, although not as many as in Russia. You've also got to consider the resurgence of the Eastern Orthodox church and the strong feelings that come from the general religious heterosexual community. I'm not condoning Russia's actions, but I'd suggest that they have a popular mandate to enact these laws. Our mistake, which we make all too often, is prematurely judging people by our own standards. This'll sort itself out over the long term, but it'll be a process, much like ours, that is driven from within - not because of the condemnation from other nations.

I'm from immigrant stock, holepuncture. My granddad is from Karachi, so I'm probably already qualified under your existing criteria. Good input though.

Is that strictly true? I thought the law related to promoting a homosexual lifestyle when in the company of kids.

Nah, that's fine Tim. I'm happy enough with a bit of detente between us. The other side of the coin is that CB's fact-free conclusions and Verbal's continual efforts to place consipiracy theorists into large, anti-semitic buckets aren't especially impressive either. The difference, I suppose, is that I'm simply going after their post content and making conclusions based on that. Hence, CB Fry probably isn't in a position to talk authoritatively on the subject because he is unaware of the basic facts, and has no appetite for any revisionism based on information that is in the public domain. I think that if one man uses "beheading in Woolwich" as an emotive means to shut down debate, it's perfectly reasonable to question that point. As for foolishness - there was always going to be an element of that. Radical views on a mainstream site will do that to you. It's the cost of doing business. I'm not looking to win converts here, but the thread now has 16K views. I'm happy enough with my input on here, and I say that as someone on the public record. I wonder if Verbal would put his name to any of the stuff he's written. People will make up their own minds, as it should be.

Well, the deal is you'll take the p!ss out of it before being shown up for being someone who hasn't a clue. That beheading in Woolwich is a prime example. Still believe that, btw?

I don't honestly know why you care. The only difference between Verbal and yourself at the moment is that he's got a slightly better vocabulary. Are you the same dude using two different stylebooks?

Expert opinion provided by semi-regular tabloid reader CB Fry.

Get a memory.

I'm sure that's technically true. I have common ground with many people on different topics, as does everyone. Lord D and I have similar views on the monarchy and the EU, but we're close to being irreconcilable on other issues. You probably have some common ground with Jew-haters, terrorists and extreme right wingers, even if it is something as trivial as the number of sugars you have in your tea, yet no-one would suggest those points of commonality made you precisely the same as them. The only reason that you continue to mention these subjects is because they are emotive taboos, cultivated and in some cases, legislated into being. We'll discuss further on your follow-up point. Personally, I have no interest in questioning the holocaust. However, I recognise the wider scale of death of destruction during WW2. Jews were not the only people targeted for genocide and thirty million Soviet citizens died during this conflict. If our residual outrage and taboo-making was based on a mere numbers game, we'd hear that 30 million figure every week, and presumably be five times as offended. You'd be able to sling it into you posts and presumably, be five times more effective with the term "russian-hater". Irvine was the chap who was locked up for his views, wasn't he? I've not looked into his work. Would you be good enough to spend one or two sentences repeating his central claims about Auschwitz? Hardly, but it's telegraphing the sort of thing you're going for. So in other words, you're unable to pull any of David Ray Griffin's books apart, so you need to smear the man based on his association with someone who questions the holocaust? Jesus, you're a one-trick pony. Shill.

Very rich coming from you, though. What demonstrations of open-mindedness have you displayed? Questioners of atrocities are Neo nazis, anti-Semites or right wing nut jobs to you. You were asked whether you placed any stock in any theory and declined to answer. You ignore evidence of non-nutters when linked and run away from threads when beaten (Madeleine McCann thread still awaiting your attention ). I'm not sure you qualify as open-minded.

For CB Fry, yes.

I haven't got my original copy, but picked another one up in a second-hand shop. You may be unsurprised to learn that it shares permanent shelf space with my original copy of How To Be A Complete Bastard.

Wait long enough, Super Michael - and all your chickens come home to roost. From the Spitting Image book in the 1980s. The Tory Political Map of The World. Life imitating art?

No, lets not take SRL, a proven goalscorer. Forget the fact that age doesn't seem to be a bar for most other nations. I think we're better off just picking young players up from big clubs in the hopes that one day, they'll come good. I just hope they're ready for the World Cup next year

What's wrong with Woolwich? Eyewitness reports versus pictures from the media. "Something out of a horror movie" versus relative pristine state of the prime suspect's jacket in the videos. The notion that Lee Rigby was decapitated, which you're still stating as fact, rests on the (at the time) urban tweets of boyadee, who talked of "bredas", etc. His post-Woolwich Guardian column ditches the sensationalist street language He has elected not to expand upon his fevered tweets with his new-found English skills, "out of respect for the family". http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/28/woolwich-murder-faith-humanity-boya-dee A comment with 148 recommendations:- Put the original tweets and this commentary side by side, and you've got a piece worthy of The Onion. Personally, I think he's reluctant to repeat his tweets in a longer form because they're at odds with so much else on the day. A picture from the top floor of the bus shows a prone figure in the road with a head. There is a video of a woman comforting and stroking the prone figure in the street. Another eyewitness mentions checking a pulse. None of these events are consistent from boyadee then, or your stance now. The coroner did not report decapitation. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/29/lee-rigby-died-cuts-stab-wounds-autopsy_n_3352738.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10090807/Woolwich-murder-Drummer-Lee-Rigby-had-to-be-identified-by-dental-records.html The broadsheets were reluctant to confirm it at the time:- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/he-was-always-smiling-lee-rigby-named-as-woolwich-victim-8628583.html Tabloids were a different story. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-live-lee-rigby-1905653 You don't believe in conspiracies. You wait for the corporations or governments that make up the mainstream media to feed you stories before you consider them "true". What's clear from your repeated claim of decapitation is that you choose your news from the tabloids and you don't trouble yourself with too much follow-up. That all being the case, I'm not quite sure how you get to call anyone gullible.

If you want to see the hell that commercial consideration could send us, try watching a game from the Colombian League. Adverts every 30 seconds, played in screen on screen fashion over the game. Truly awful. I agree with the article. We've little to learn from the US when it comes to sports coverage, particularly football.

Y'know, talk of shills would be in the 10% of stuff I'd immediately dismiss. Fk me, it'd have to be the world's sh!ttest shill assignment if true. "Go onto SaintsWeb and argue with pap". I hope it's true. I'd hate to think they were doing this for fun.

Walk before you run. Read before you write.

Again, a sort of progress. At least you're not calling them nutters, but I disagree with your summarisation of the link I posted. I reckon people who are interested are best off visiting the link themselves rather than rely on your impressively terse abridgement. And do you know what? With 15k views on this thread, there's a fair chance they have. Your point, and Verbal's graphic, but entirely inaccurate characterisation of those with questions, is null and void as soon as they click the link. I praise you on your brevity, but there isn't a great deal that one can say in two sentences, especially when one is a literary arse-lick to a poster that, whatever else he might be, at least puts a shift in on the word count.