ooh it's a corner

The problem with comparing numbers from our country to another is that you cannot guarantee everyone is testing the same, or behaving the same. For example, if someone dies in a German hopsital because they broke their leg and then got sick, got pneumonia and died, they will not be recorded as a Corona death. In Belgium they almost certainly would, in the UK they might. South Korea (lauded as a complete success) has government documentation that sets their peak at the end of Feb and has been reporting new cases in their teens each day but in 1 week in March, in 1 hospital, they had 457 pneumonia cases, 24 deaths on ZERO corona. The numbers are simply not the same from one place to the next

No. I'm just taking the mick. Too much information/mis-information. The fact our government told us this yesterday and the press didnt go mad, sums up how little we're paying attention to the changes that are afoot.

But was it really Andrew Chesson, or was it Sgt Andrew Chesson, 77th Batallion, Hermitage? Can't trust nuffink anymore

Yes, it is too easy to try to score political points, or sensationalist points (in order to sell your newspaper). The media really do need a kick. They are either failing to ask the difficult questions, of government, of business leaders, of Bill Gates, or they are spouting sensationalist rubbish.

duplicate....

5 million people in a space 10 percent bigger than the UK and certainly not acting as a major transport hub. Add-in the ethnic diversity here (how do you stop an Italian/Indian/Frenchman travelling home to the UK), it was probably a bit easier to control. But, I take the point, there are countries who are nowhere near as badly affected as the UK. But we will only be able to judge performance once everyone has gone through a 12-24 month period.

I've not joined this debate recently coz I can't be done with the pettiness, but I was involved with a very similar debate with some mates yesterday evening (i.e. which country's government looks to be coping the best) and one of my mates has a son in South Korea, and she was lauding the approach there, which involved lots of testing, tracking, heavy handed fines, imprisonment and in some cases deportation. They are claiming to have 10,000 positive tests and about 250 deaths. So, I went for a little explore of the data. Undoubtedly, South Korea reacted very quickly, and they have cited their experience of SARS in 2015 as a dress rehearsal for this main event. In 2015 they lost 38 people to SARS. We probably lose that to cycle accidents in London in a few months.....but nonetheless, this experience has given them some lessons learnt. They were quick to put inbound traveller restrictions in place, so health questionnaires in the first instance, followed by tracking, followed by "thou must self-quarantine", followed by bans from Wuhan, followed by bans from China, then blanket bans for other affected countries. They were also quick to forceably track positive test carriers and inbound travellers/returnees and pass law to imprison (1 year) people who broke the quarantine rules. However, here are a couple of telling points. UK locked down on 19th March. South Korea locked down the entire country on 22nd March (having previously only locked down 1 territory on 20th Feb). They had 2 big spikes in new cases (cases not deaths). 813 on 29th Feb and 851 on 3rd March. On 19th March, their gov daily briefing notes commented; "Also, 457 patients hospitalized in nursing hospitals with pneumonia of unidentified cause had diagnostic tests (Mar. 9~13) for COVID-19 with the risk of infection, and all of the patients tested (277 persons*) were negative. * Those who didn’t undergo test (180 persons): the deceased 24, discharged/ referral 8, treatment completed 38, doctor’s opinion of no need to test (causes identified such as bacterial/aspiration pneumonia, 110 persons)" So, we can conclude that out of 457 patients, of whom 24 had died at the time of going to print, not one them was counted as a corona victim. As you can see, all that was needed is "doctor's opinion". I don't care whether this is right or wrong, but it is clearly a different method than is deployed elsewhere around the globe. It is also entirely logically that some of those 457 patients would be included as corona victims in the UK. Thus also highlighting the testing/recording differences from one region to the next. I think this probably means that person A could be tested negative in South Korea and positive in UK - or at least recorded as being positive in UK (with or without a postive test). Here are some other notes from the South Korean gov from 26th March; "The Central Disaster and Safety Countermeasure Headquarters discussed ways to strengthen infection control for caregivers, known as a blind spot for infection control, in nursing hospitals and to support nursing hospitals to better manage their infection by themselves. In order to address the lack of masks for caregivers, masks were additionally secured in consultation with the Ministry of Food and Drug Safety, and started to be distributed to nursing hospitals through Korean Hospital Association (Mar. 24~ approximately 38,000 masks/day)." From 29th March "In preparation for the prolonged COVID-19 responses, it is necessary to plan ahead so that personal hygiene and social distancing can be continuously practiced at a level consistent with everyday life. "Daily infection prevention" aims to curb the number of COVID-19 patients to a level that our hospitals and medical staff can endure until the COVID-19 pandemic is over with the development of vaccines and cures." From 4th April Extending Intensive "Social Distancing" for Another 2 Weeks - Inevitable to continue an intensive social distancing campaign amid still dire situation From 5th April Also, infection control products such as protective coveralls, N95 masks, goggles are to be stockpiled in consideration of demand* and stably provided by producing them domestically. * To purchase 2 million protective coveralls per month (~ June); and purchase 500,000 to 1 million per month since June From 8th April 4. Stricter inspections on facilities (clubs, etc) with risk of group transmission From this week, the existing inspection will be further strengthened from inspection of sanitation officers to a joint inspection with police officers and consumer food sanitation supervisors involved. Also, the government plans to focus its inspections on nightclubs, entertainment bars, dance clubs between 11 pm and 4 am on Fridays and Saturdays. Reading these daily summaries, they do not tell a tale of a country completely in control, only dealing with the 18 new cases that they reported yesterday - nothing to worry about in South Korea. They read like a stretched health-service, a completely forgotten care system, and a country that is still in lockdown (they are talking about the possibility of opening their schools in early May). The language is as realistic as that used by politicians in the UK. And terrifyingly, it would seem from the last set of statements, that nightclubs and bars are still opening. We should be screaming at them "shut up shop". Have a read yourself, this is the 8th April report. https://www.mohw.go.kr/eng/nw/nw0101vw.jsp?PAR_MENU_ID=1007&MENU_ID=100701&page=1&CONT_SEQ=353989 Bearing in mind South Korea's "peak" was at the end of Feb/beginning of March, the reports do not read like they are expecting to come out soon. The world is in a right royal mess. I don't believe there is a government out there, sitting in an ivory tower, looking down their nose at the rest of civilisation. Yes, our government could have done more. So, could China, so could South Korea, so could the WHO, so could Richard Branson. So what? Of course we have to hold our leaders to account and I am sure they will be, just not today.

GDPR is out of the window in the context of a global pandemic. The EU has already dealt with this little obstacle on 20th March. Have a read of https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/health/coronavirus-response/public-health_en#processing-of-personal-data-to-protect-public-health and the Processing of Data document, here https://edpb.europa.eu/sites/edpb/files/files/file1/edpb_statement_2020_processingpersonaldataandcovid-19_en.pdf Essentially the PDF document says, location data must be anonymous, unless consent has been given by the individual. So the pending "coronavirus tracker" will seek your permission and once given, will track you as a named individual, not an anonymous one. Very importantly, the pdf also goes on to say that it is up to individual member state's government, to determine whether they want to pass legislation to remove the anonymity provided by the current legislation. So, I agree, we are not Stasi-state yet. But the lawmakers are opening the door.....

That would depend on whether the objective was to change behaviour (i.e turn law-breakers into law-keepers), or whether you just wanted a pecking order (i.e. put the law-breakers down the queue). Who knows? Certainly not me.

I think they already are collating the data. But before I offer my opinion, I do need to say I am not someone who works for any organisation involved in this, I am someone who understands how data works, but these are my opinions, not necessarily the gospel truth. So the question is how do you spot the difference between somebody moving about lawfully and somebody moving about unlawfully? If you have a phone contract, the phone company knows where you live and has validated that data with a credit reference check, using electoral roll, credit cards etc.. So, my mobile phone, switched on, in my front room, is being recorded as an "at home" device. Assuming I take my phone with me, when I leave, then my device ceases being "at home". Now, the point regarding how could a data expert differentiate between someone doing good in their community and someone flauting the law, is all about being stationary. So visiting your aging family, is likely to involve a stop reaching into a few minutes. Even if you stop for a natter (obviously at a safe distance), maybe 20 minutes. But, having a BBQ with your mates, is likely to run for at least 1 hour, if not several hours. At that point, the patterns will emerge. Within 7000 metres of my home, there are 603 mobile signal masts. Given the ability to triangulate my position, the data is available (not publicly) to identify my phone's position to within 5 metres, probably even 2m. https://www.mastdata.com/37/37_map_mobile_mast.aspx?Table=15&AdTyID=43&ROName=so17%201pq&Z=14 So, think of a wider gathering, like my neighbour's recent BBQs. Ten people turn up and spend several hours in the same place, which is not their registered home address. That would stand-out like a sore thumb, for the data folks. I do agree Whelk, spotting the micro-differences will be hard, but spotting the obvious law-breakers, will be easy. Whether those details are used to determine pecking order for an ICU bed, remains to be seen. But I have no doubt the data is there, being collected. Whether it is being modelled in the way I think it is, is up for debate.

As soon as Google/Apple/Microsoft and co finish their homework, I am certain that any "NHS" scoring tool (as provided by these tech giants) will also include personal movement. So, if you are a fit 25 year old, but have not been following the rules, you might find yourself at the back of the treatment queue.

One of the challenges is staff numbers. If you test everyone and 10% of the staff have it, then they must self isolate for 14 days. Anyone who has come into contact with a positive testee, should also self-isolate. By the Government issued guidelines, testing someone positive in a hospital ward could effectively remove all staff from the ward. I think we are deliberately avoiding that difficulty. Not a satisfactory answer for the staff, and not one that anyone in Government is ever going to admit to, but I think this does provide an answer to the question as to why our testing of front line staff has been inadequate.

My condolences to you and your wife.

My neighbours had a bbq yesterday. Pretty low key for them, only a couple of mates over. I would estimate at least 30 people have visited my neighbours house in the last 3 weeks. I can't work out if they are sticking two fingers up to the rules or whether they are simply so stupid that they do not understand the risk and the implications for their (collective) behaviour.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't at the moment. I do think the football fraternity would be best served by avoiding social media until after this is all over.

I agree entirely. I would also add, they wouldn't have to spent 50 million on Timo Werner, they could simply continue to pay many tens of staff, north of 100k per week. And for Liverpool, you can also add Newcastle, Spurs, Norwich, Bournemouth and now Southampton by the looks of it. The Government cannot allow tax-payer money to go to a business who is continuing to pay its highest earners at rack-rate.

There's a lot of dismay at the club's response. But I haven't seen anyone suggest that they're done with the whole thing and they will never step foot inside Anfield again.

This has got me thinking. Our club will be going through the financial scenario planning and looking to make decisions. From the sentiment across England, furloughing your lower paid staff is poor form. One way of balancing the books is for the highest earners to take a pay cut, thus allowing the lower earners to maintain 100% income. Not much any of us can do about those decision, but I wonder if the fan base can influence some of the decision making? If the season gets scrapped, the club will have a large liability to refund the ticket holders for games that didn't take place. This will run into several million quid. Would you support waiving your refund, to help the club pay 100% of wages? Equally, would you support buying next year's season ticket today, without knowing if/when it will kick off?

I think this is a really tough one, especially for Liverpool. Obviously they are one of the highest profile clubs in the world. Liverpool is also one of the most socialist-supporting regions in this country. To furlough the average-man-in-the-street staff, whilst the very well paid footballers and the very wealthy owners, fail to contribute, will cause a greater ill-feeling there than I suspect the same action has in Norwich. There are a few posters on these threads on this forum who are saying, enough is enough, I can't be done contributing to this morally bankrupt business anymore. I wonder if the average Liverpool fan thinks the same?

In one of Boris's early addresses, he said the peak was expected end of May / beginning of June. They won't let us out in peak, just a question of how far after peak they let us out. Obviously, this is all based on computer models and the like, which could be wrong, but Lombardy was shut at the end of February and all of Italy on the 9th March. I don't see that situation changing in the next four weeks. Just gotta hunker down and try to keep the brain engaged, whilst remaining aware of others in your household. (I'm the bloke that leaves for work early and comes home late, so my presence at home cramps everyone else's space more than it affects me).

Once this all blows over, I would love to see Professor Whitty sit in front of Sky Sports and tell them what is wrong with VAR, and how the offside rule should be updated. The football world would blow a fuse, telling him to keep his beak out. Why any celebrity thinks they have the authority to comment sensibly on this beggars belief. Offer support, re-iterate the guidelines issued, but anything else is kamakaze.

I think Nicola Sturgeon has just summed it up nicely, If your life feels like normal, perhaps you should give your head a wobble. My neighbours, who are possibly the most inconsiderate tossers on the planet, are having a mothering sunday party. full family gathering - 8-10 adults. kids running in and out, playing with neighbouring kids. It makes you so cross. Rather than advising Doctors to make the horrific decision as to who gets the best treatment and who doesn't, based on their age and fitness, we should allow Doctors to base their decision making on patient intellect. Stupid bastards that think it won't affect them, should be left in the hospital car park.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries The figures are also born out on the worldometer site. But what is more scary, is that Lombardy was shut down at the end of Feb and the whole of Italy on 9th March. If we track 14 days behind them, we should have shutdown London by now and the entire country tomorrow. The Italians did warn us that they thought our reaction was insufficient.

For a good while, I was definitely in the, "what's the big deal, more people will be killed in car accidents today...." (or any other common form of checking-out) But, the thing that has brought this home to me, is the statistical chances of checking out, with this "winter-flu" versus your risk group. If you are in the group of people that are invited, nay advised, to have a winter flu jab, you are in that group. And the thing that brings the message home to roost is how many people I know in that group. I am a bloke in my mid-forties and every single family member north of me, is in that group. Hell, I should be in that group. This isn't about our safety, it is about everyone's. Particularly those who are more vulnerable. My 76 year old Dad is clearly vulnerable, but is fit enough to have been planning a 500 mile walk along the Camino in France and Spain in the summer. He isn't superman, but he is at risk. If the fit and healthy among us do as we please, we will wipe out the generation above us. Let's not do that.

I haven't flown from Manchester to Southampton, but I have done Southampton to Leeds, with my family, for a weekend with friends. Finish work at 4:30pm Friday, leg it home, get a taxi, catch a 6pm flight to leeds, with 1 bag checked in. Arrive at Leeds at 7:15pm, out and in my friends house by 7:30pm (they are close to the airport). Absolutely brilliant for me. You turn a weekend away with friends into 2 full nights and a chunk of Sunday before returning. I know Greta would have us believe it isnt the way to do it, but 10-12 hours driving cant be much different on the carbon?