CHAPEL END CHARLIE

I suppose all the rage we see on this thread is kind of understandable, if ultimately misguided I think. It is equally clear that those who surrender to hatred so readily are not about to listen to what calmer voices might try to say to them on here. But perhaps they might at least pause for a moment and listen to someone who has a hell of a lot more cause to feel anger than they do, but nevertheless refuses to surrender himself to hatred. The words of Antoine Leiris - a man as remarkable as he is wise methinks.

I saw, and was quite impressed with, 'Zero Dark Thirty' the other day - a dramatised account of the CIA's decade long manhunt for Al-Qaeda supremo Osama bin Laden. Directed by Kathryn Bigelow, the film revolves around the character 'Maya' (Jessica Chastain), a ferociously dedicated young intelligence analysis who will stop at nothing to get her man. As with many films of this type you do wonder where the dividing line between truth and fiction lays, but 'Zero Dark Thirty' certainly doesn't seek to avoid depicting the thorny moral issue of the CIA's employment of torture methods in order to extract information from captured terrorists. Indeed, we see here that this intelligence proved instrumental in the eventual discovery of Osama's hiding place in Abbottabad, Pakistan. It seems to me that while this film depicts torture it adroitly avoids (sidesteps?) forming any real judgement on this difficult issue - we seem instead to be invited to form our own opinion as to whether we feel that the 'ends justify the means' here. Is that a 'cop out' or a wise choice I wonder. While 'Zero Dark Thirty' may struggle at times to resolve the tension that exists between the need to develop both its charterers and a (rather complex) plot, it is nevertheless a successful effort overall I think. The climatic scenes when US Special Forces finally launch their raid on Osama's secret compound are certainly highly dramatic.

I too value our old British traditions and am also reluctant to doing anything that means we are effectively 'dancing' to a tune played by terror. However, when/if a Paris style spree attack happens over here then the 'first responders' on the scene of the action are highly unlikely be some elite and heavily armed SAS squad, or even one of our few specialist police counter-terrorism teams. No, the first there will most probably be the nearest copper at hand - who let's face it will probably be unarmed and therefore incapable of stopping the attack rapidly. Time is of the essence here. I understand that some constabularies have only a dozen or so 'armed response' officers on duty at any one time. It may take these officers 20 minutes perhaps to get to the scene and when they get there not only may they find themselves outnumbered possibly, they may also be outgunned too because their semi-automatic weapons can't match the firepower of those the terrorists may be armed with. This situation is surely both unwise and untenable. Obviously we're a hell of a long way from the old 'Dixon of Dock Green' style policing here and I dare say we all regret the fact that the world has developed this way. But if you ask someone to do a job, then should you not also give them the right tools they require to do it?

Well said that man!

I saw on the BBC yesterday a 'vox pop' taken on the streets of Guildford in which the interviewer asked locals whether they agreed or not with those calling for our armed police to be equipped with fully automatic weapons in the light of the current situation. At this time our armed police only carry semi-automatic weapons of course, and might therefore find themselves at a significant disadvantage if faced with a gunman armed with a fully automatic weapon. The good people of Guildford seemed to think that this would be a gross overreaction, principally because surely their corner of Surrey is not very likely to become the target of terrorism is it? Well, methinks that not only is it perfectly possible that terror might strike somewhere away from London, the historical fact that at least some of these locals (quite remarkably) seem to have forgotten is that Guildford itself has suffered a terror attack not so very long ago - as anyone who remembers the IRA's notorious 'pub bombings' campaign of 1974 will surely attest. You'd think that even those too young to recall the 70's might know what happened in Warrington as recently as 1993. It seems to me that the time when most of our police could go about their job unarmed is coming to its end I'm sorry to say. It seems however that this nation will have to wait until after a Paris style attack happens here before the British people are shaken out of their cast-iron sense of complacency in this regard.

CB Hypomash? - now there's a scary thought.

Well I did try to explain what happened as simply as I could - perhaps the language employed was to complex for you?

Oh my God you have even resorted to using the same language now! What next I wonder - will you be moving in together?

Are you and CB officially an 'item' now? For your information, I did think this kind of stuff to be in bad taste in the immediate aftermath of Friday's terrible events. I'm told however that to allow terror to alter ones behaviour is - in a sense - allowing 'them' to win. So you can rest assured that normal activities on here are now resumed you sad little man.

You seem so very desperate to have a little 'pop' at me CB the only polite response is to oblige you I suppose. If the game gets too rough for you again ... well then you should play somewhere else old chap.

Now come on my friendly - I've never called you a liar have I. A hypocrite however ...

I see. So you DO now think that Homophobia is a significant problem and 50 odd posts attacking people who said that the other day was some kind of mistake? Praise be!

So in conclusion then. According to you 1 in 7 LGBT people experiencing some form of 'hate crime' incident every year signifies that no very significant homophobia problem exists in society. On the other hand, you do feel that 1 in 10 Muslims expressing an opinion amounts to a ''huge proportion''. Never mind CB - afterall they do say that consistency is a overrated virtue.

You've gone too far now!

Indeed. As anyone who has ever visited the Alhambra Palace will know the Islamic world was once perhaps the most advanced civilisation on Earth, and certainly way ahead of medieval Europe in many ways. Why exactly they not only failed to maintain that historical lead, but have seemingly regressed into the abysmal state so many Arab States are in today is a fascinating question that I would not even pretend to be capable of answering properly.

As it happens I've been reading about the Punic Wars this week. So that earlier Paris Massacre counts as current affairs to me! It's all a matter of perspective you see.

The St Bartholomew's Day Massacre happened as recently as 1572 old boy ...

Further proof, if any were needed, that no ''Christian'' gentlemen would never sink so low as murder innocents on the streets of Paris ...

and Jesus wept ...

But if it says so on your belt buckle then it must be true surely?

It's just a picture you know. There's really no need for your constant grandstanding on here ...

Can't you see man that no one has the 'answer' to the problem of Sunni extremism at this time. The Western world has been attempting militarily for decades now to combat the growing threat of religious extremism, with what can only be described as a singular lack of sustained success. Indeed, all our efforts seem only to have made the situation worse if anything. Even were NATO to invade Syria tomorrow for example, then who on here would be so foolish as to predict that outcome would result in the final destruction of Jihadism? No, what would almost certainly happen is that this organisation would be swiftly defeated in the field by vastly superior Western firepower, but equally swiftly reinvent itself as yet another 'Guerilla Army' type force (akin to the Taliban) that would wage war on our occupying forces from now until we reached the limit of our endurance oncer again - just like Afghanistan or Vietnam in other words. There are no easy solutions on offer here, if there were then we would have taken them. But as neither side are about to go away anytime soon one fine day it will have to end with some kind of accommodation being reached by people of good will or at least those who have grown tired of war. When that will be ... well only God (or Allah) knows.

Thank you, but I did read that the first time you wrote it. In the same spirit, I too will refer you to my previous reply and suggest that this thread is best reserved for those who want to discus the issue at hand. .

Until the blood has been mopped up off the streets of Paris I think I'll have to decline your kind invitation for yet another round of biting lumps out of each other on here. Such an activity would be in exceptionally poor taste today.