Poshie72 Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Ok a bit of a long shot, but thought you guys may know?!??: My boyfriends Gran is 94 and until last yesterday has lived in a house on her own, with family popping in on a daily basis to help her. Yesterday morning it was obvious that she had lost her marbles (so to speak). This was very sudden. Then last night a 2am my bf mum was woken by one of Gran's neighbours saing that they thought something had happened. When she got there Gran had fallen at the top of the stairs. The paramedics have checked her over and doesnt appear to be serious, but is in hospital as a precaution. The upshot being that there it looks like she will probably have to go into a home especialy in light of the dementia. Ok here is the problem: The house she lives in, is in Grans and my bf's aunts name. The mortgage is paid by my bf and his aunt, with my bf named in the will for 50% of the property. Will this have to be sold to fund the care for Granny, and how will it effect his and his aunts share in the property. (effectively they are joint owners with Granny living there and paying a small rent from her pension). Should also mention that she lives up in Scotland and I know the law can vary from english. They are also hoping that she may be able to go into NHS care. He is due to visit them at the end of October and will go and seek advice while he is up there, but it could be too late. If anyone can tell me what could happen, or can point me in a good place to go to on the web I would be very grateful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Poshie, I think ALL care is free in Scotland whereas it's only nursing care in England. If the house deeds have both the grandmother's and aunt's names then I believe no-one can force the sale of the house (although if care is indeed free it shouldn't be an issue anyway). If the social services there do need to charge for her care then, if it's like England, I think they take a charge on the house i.e. they become first in line for payment once the house is sold and then what's left is shared between the beneficiaries in the will. But since Scottish law is often very different from English law, it might be worth your bf talking to a solicitor up there? Poor lady - I hope she's ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouchie's Lawyer Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 I would assign your bf's aunt as a power of attorney to his gran. She would then be wise to swap the deeds of the property into her name and your bf's as if the property does have to be sold (and this is where I become a bit stuck) then without a property, your bf wont get anything (as the will stipulates 50% of the property - not 50% of any money in her account - even if it were from the sale of the property). Also a point to look at would be that if the property is not in granny's name, then she cant be forced to sell it to pay for her care? Thats presuming that if she has to go into NHS care, the care is paid for by selling the property. If it appears granny is only renting the property (and deeds would need to reflect this, so remove granny and replace with your bf) then they cant force her to sell it as its not hers! Hope this helps, however, a solicitor would be the best person to speak with. On a slightly more morbid note, if the property is passed from granny to bf while she is still alive (for example by doing the above) then if she passes within 7 years, your boyfriend will be liable for inheritance tax on the value of what he was given. These are english laws though so not sure if it differs up in scotland. Hope that helps a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouchie's Lawyer Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Poshie, I think ALL care is free in Scotland whereas it's only nursing care in England. If the house deeds have both the grandmother's and aunt's names then I believe no-one can force the sale of the house (although if care is indeed free it shouldn't be an issue anyway). If the social services there do need to charge for her care then, if it's like England, I think they take a charge on the house i.e. they become first in line for payment once the house is sold and then what's left is shared between the beneficiaries in the will. But since Scottish law is often very different from English law, it might be worth your bf talking to a solicitor up there? Poor lady - I hope she's ok Runs in line with what I thought. If care is free then no problems. If they do charge then get granny off the deeds and no charge can be placed against the property! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 I_N_S I think you're slightly misleading on the Inheritance Tax thingy. IHT is due on the value of the property (over £300K or £600K for a widow / widower's property) and not on the share to each beneficiary. So, if the bf and the aunt are named beneficiaries, they are jointly responsible for paying the IHT - if any is due, that is. Again, it might be different in Scotland :smt102 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Runs in line with what I thought. If care is free then no problems. If they do charge then get granny off the deeds and no charge can be placed against the property! Is it that easy though? Surely, by removing granny from the deeds, she is, in effect, gifting her share to the aunt and the bf and she'd still have to survive 7 years before that gift is free of reckoning for IHT. Also, and we went into this when my dad was ill, social services also take the 7 year rule into account, I think and therefore will apply the charge if granny dies before the 7 years is up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Can I mention Trusts here? If the law is the same in Scotland (and I really don't know), then this is a prime example of a case for setting up a trust to protect the property. See a Scottish solicitor ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouchie's Lawyer Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 IHT is due on the value of the property (over £300K or £600K for a widow / widower's property) and not on the share to each beneficiary. So, if the bf and the aunt are named beneficiaries, they are jointly responsible for paying the IHT - if any is due, that is. Again, it might be different in Scotland :smt102 My bad, I believe your right, (providing the property is not worth millions!) Then the estate should fall within the IHT brackets so it should be all well and good. Is it that easy though? Surely, by removing granny from the deeds, she is, in effect, gifting her share to the aunt and the bf and she'd still have to survive 7 years before that gift is free of reckoning for IHT. Also, and we went into this when my dad was ill, social services also take the 7 year rule into account, I think and therefore will apply the charge if granny dies before the 7 years is up? Yes i concur with gifting the property to the boyf, however, if granny is forced to sell the property, then it could be argued the will only stated 50% of the property and if the property had been sold, the will could be contested by someone else and the money not end up going to the bf. By changing the deeds over, the property would be protected, but IHT may be due within 7 years if granny doesnt live that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South City Si Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 I'm not sure if they will make you sell the house to pay for the care. Care is free (i.e. funded by Social Services) unless you have over £20,000 worth of savings, I don't know how this is affected from house ownership. But maybe an idea to, as said above, change deeds and hand over money to someone they trust. Of course I'm not encouraging you to trying to rip off Adult Social Serivicews though! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Free Personal and Nursing Care in Scotland Personal care is available without charge for everyone in Scotland aged 65 and over who have been assessed by the local authority as needing it. Free nursing care is available for people of any age. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/care/17655 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poshie72 Posted 1 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 1 October, 2008 You guys are amazing. Many thanks for all your replies which confirmed alot of what we thought. My bf is going to speak to a solicitor when he goes up but unfortuantly that isnt until the end of oct. He is trying to get his aunt to see one as she also has an interest in the property, but they are so laid back up there they never seem to see anything as urgent and short of marching her there ourselves she probably wouldnt go, even if we made the appointment etc. In hindsight this should have all been thought about before hand, especially given her age, but it was always something that could wait until tomorrow as until yesterday she was holding her own. I will pass all of your comments etc on to him. Once again many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 To be fair, it's always been the case that if someone on the Forum doesn't know the answer, then it was probably not worrth knowing in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poshie72 Posted 1 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 1 October, 2008 To be fair, it's always been the case that if someone on the Forum doesn't know the answer, then it was probably not worrth knowing in the first place. How true is that! This place is full of useless (and sometimes useful) information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Can I mention Trusts here? If the law is the same in Scotland (and I really don't know), then this is a prime example of a case for setting up a trust to protect the property. See a Scottish solicitor ASAP. Seeing a solicitor about a trust is key. My nan is in a similar position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Free Personal and Nursing Care in Scotland Personal care is available without charge for everyone in Scotland aged 65 and over who have been assessed by the local authority as needing it. Free nursing care is available for people of any age. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Health/care/17655 Not relevant in this case but its also free on the IOW if over 70. We had the same issue with MIL and now gets free daily visits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Hi Poshie - as you know I'm not medically trained (!) but I am concerned that the 'dementia' came on so suddenly - I would have thought the warning signs would be there already. Normally its a slow build up over months - even years. The fact that she fell so soon after makes me wonder if there is something else. I'm sure the doctors are checking everything but it won't do any harm to ask questions. Hope it all works out OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poshie72 Posted 1 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 1 October, 2008 Hi Poshie - as you know I'm not medically trained (!) but I am concerned that the 'dementia' came on so suddenly - I would have thought the warning signs would be there already. Normally its a slow build up over months - even years. The fact that she fell so soon after makes me wonder if there is something else. I'm sure the doctors are checking everything but it won't do any harm to ask questions. Hope it all works out OK. We were quite shocked. She has had mild dementia for some time, the odd thing would be said that bore no relevance, but this has literally changed overnight to her being on a totally different planet. We couldnt believe it when we got the call yesterday morning telling us how bad she was. We think (hope) that she possibly has an infection of some kind which has caused the sudden change and subsequent fall. They are doing tests today and hopefully will know more tonight. I have only known her for 18 months and she is such a lovely lady and so independant as well. If she can no longer manage on her own then it will be a big shock to her (if she really understands what is happening). All I can do is pray that it is nothing serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her. Let us know how she gets on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sotonic Mills Posted 1 October, 2008 Share Posted 1 October, 2008 We were quite shocked. She has had mild dementia for some time, the odd thing would be said that bore no relevance, but this has literally changed overnight to her being on a totally different planet. We couldnt believe it when we got the call yesterday morning telling us how bad she was. We think (hope) that she possibly has an infection of some kind which has caused the sudden change and subsequent fall. They are doing tests today and hopefully will know more tonight. I have only known her for 18 months and she is such a lovely lady and so independant as well. If she can no longer manage on her own then it will be a big shock to her (if she really understands what is happening). All I can do is pray that it is nothing serious. I hope (and trust) that the doctors are looking for signs of CVA, which is a prime cause of sudden-onset dementia. Even without other external symptoms, it should be investigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 3 October, 2008 Share Posted 3 October, 2008 I hope (and trust) that the doctors are looking for signs of CVA, which is a prime cause of sudden-onset dementia. Even without other external symptoms, it should be investigated. Don't know what CVA is, but my step-father often gets urinary infections which cause deleriousness, temporary loss of memory and temporary loss of balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 3 October, 2008 Share Posted 3 October, 2008 CVA = Cardio vascular accident. In simple terms, a stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 3 October, 2008 Share Posted 3 October, 2008 We were quite shocked. She has had mild dementia for some time, the odd thing would be said that bore no relevance, but this has literally changed overnight to her being on a totally different planet. We couldnt believe it when we got the call yesterday morning telling us how bad she was. We think (hope) that she possibly has an infection of some kind which has caused the sudden change and subsequent fall. They are doing tests today and hopefully will know more tonight. I have only known her for 18 months and she is such a lovely lady and so independant as well. If she can no longer manage on her own then it will be a big shock to her (if she really understands what is happening). All I can do is pray that it is nothing serious. As you probably know there are lots of types of dementia but from my experience these are often caused by a meningitis type infection or something similar or a stroke. My advice would be to ask for a proper diagnosis from a consultant. Also ask for a capacity test to be completed by a doctor or social worker. You can get advice from a IMCA( Independant Mental Capacity Advocate) in order to make a best interest decision regarding the future care and residence of your relative. They can give you good advice on what support/options you need to explore to support the person in making an informed decision regarding their future needs as someones mental capacity can change for the better or worse quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poshie72 Posted 4 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 4 October, 2008 Once again thanks to all your replies. To update you all. She is still in hospital and they are still carrying out tests, but so far everything is negative, which is a relief as at least there has no been any stroke. They also havent found any infection, but she is on antibiotics as a precaution. Although, the family are still concerned as to why she went downhill so suddenly, but looks like it will just be put down to her age. We have had her assessed by the psychiatric team. They have concluded that she definately needs full time care, which, being in Scotland is free. This is really good news. The downside is that until they can organise her a place, she will have to go back home, but they will be providing full care while she is there, which again is free. We do not know when she will be coming home, but at least the family know that they have the full support of the care workers. My BF and his family would like me to pass on their thanks for your good wishes and help. They are still going to see a solicitor to be 100% safe on the house, but provided the government are true to their word and they do give her full care then it shouldnt be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 4 October, 2008 Share Posted 4 October, 2008 Generally good news all round then Poshie! Best wishes to Granny and to your BF and his family too x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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