gio1saints

Yes I think that’s what happened. But in real life football not with a hundred replays and var that goal looks offside to me as a ref Lino flagged it or not. And I would have chalked it off. Human error I know - wrong reason apparently - but I prefer that to the explanation ultimately given.

On the offside - agree with many on here. As a HantsFA qualified ref I would have given that offside without a seconds hesitation. Lino flagged its offside carry on. That VAR took so long to faff about before ultimately confirming the onfield decision was shitty and pisses everyone off. Russell’s explanation from a pro footballers perspective is exactly what he should say - the goalie was not impeded - But the on-field decision was offside and if it was for Brighton I’d have been aggrieved if it had been not been disallowed. Just annoys me the VAR interpretation on “interfering with play for an offside goal” ends up being just as subjective and liable to human error as if there was no var and it’s back down to the ref and his assistants. No difference really just we lost 4 minutes waiting and all got angry.

Thought the away support was brilliant all match. Yet again. Bad first half epitomised by Archer shinning a chance someone like Vardy (or insert 90% of forwards in this league - ) would score in their sleep. Second half competitive but not dominant. VAR has not been our friend this season but neither have our set pieces or general defending - which is bottom of the league standard rubbish. Noticeably our main goal threat last bunch of games appears to be mostly from fast breaks on the transition - and it’s planned - and seemingly effective - Archers goal v Arsenal, his contentious disallowed goal and the Fernandes goal v Liverpool all last few weeks examples. Kind of disappointing if you are one of the many who like to go on about how boring and slow we are as a team. Kind of ruins the narrative. The team is evolving. The style is evolving. Arguably, progressively in recent matches there’s signs. Probably way too slowly to avoid relegation. None of Liverpool, Arsenal, Brighton or Man City have made us look “out of our depth”. The top four in this league. Decapitate the boss, install a new regime and unsettle this now near 18months in the baking evolving team with some breakout young stars now flourishing and leading it - like TD and MF - at your peril SR! Each match they look better and better. And that’s been versus the best in the league. Credit where it’s due.

I am not. That is not correct. Lots of what you say is legitimate and informed even prescient but that comment is not one of them.

@verlaine1979I respect your POV but the style of football played is not really the key point. My rebelliousness or stupidity if that’s what you see it as is because ultimately, we never win. And I do not see that changing. Unless other big things change. Saints do not win. Whatever style we play and have played in our history - and there’s been MANY variations - we do not end up winning the league winning the cup winning in Europe or even close. Thats the backdrop and our history and, frankly, our future. Whatever manager whatever style. We have had Poch, Koeman, Keegan, Bale and Shearer VVD and Mane - but we still never win. What we do, if we have had a bounty of great players all at same time plus manager, is have maybe a season or two in which we look competitive. Get to a Final perhaps. Then we sell and go back to being what we’ve always been. A feeder club to the clubs you say “ play better football”. Back to struggling Saints. No big revelation here but the main reason those other clubs “ play better football” is because they are able to snatch the best players and the best managers from the other clubs like Saints year after year. Find outliers by all means but for the most part that’s the way it is. And how has that situation arisen and is it now locked in so that teams like Saints can never get to Top Table?? I think the answer is yes. And I resent it. Small aside : I actually thought the Liverpool match was the opposite of navel gazingly boring shit - but we all view matches differently. The ultimate outcome is pre ordained - and most Saints fans would have told you at 2-1 v Liverpool we were still going to lose this. Not in the sense of “ match -fixing” but on a deeper, structural way football is set up level. My 50 years of watching Saints NOT win but supporting them throughout with a smile despite it all tells me that this is the status quo. Get over it I used to say to myself. Enjoy the little victories we are allowed. Enjoy some nice moments on a match day. Smile wryly in that Saints dark humour way when we lose again. I still do all that but here I’m espousing the other side if it as well. I can hold both beliefs simultaneously. And in any case why should Saints fans and the rest of the also ran clubs in this grand money making scheme be too bothered about how we or they play ? Indeed, as long as it’s “ entertaining” what’s wrong? The gladiator contests were also meant to be entertaining. But watching the charade of competitive football matches in this fixed system is sometimes too much even for my mature stomach. And this is the nub of the argument, why not do something counterintuitive like play in this almost freakish style of ours? If playing the game the way we have played it for 50 years with so many variations has delivered the square root of f all why not try this freakish way? Why not? Because we might lose even more? Because it’s humiliating? I think what’s humiliating is the big screen at SMS constantly replaying Bobby Stokes goal from 1976 as the highlight of our existence. Or beating Carlisle. Or those c ants on the TV smugly grinning when they talk about us.

Maybe so. But maybe your response - which to be fair is what most Saints fans reading might think of my outre comment, is an example of Stockholm syndrome, Saints-style. Thats certainly something you might like to call BS on. But are you 100% sure I’m wrong? Are Saints supporters coping with the perpetual failure of our club to ever win anything, to losing all our best players the minute they look like they might be any good , by harbouring positive feelings about our tormentors? Instead of fighting them we love them. Instead of wanting to escape we aspire to be like them. Like poor urchins looking in the windows of a big store at Xmas time we get vicarious pleasure from their success- and our ongoing degradation. Saints will remain mediocre failures in perpetuity as long as we remain grateful to accept the crumbs of our masters. We will never win anything with that attitude. Something radical is required. Well, that’s what I believe. You surely don’t. Most don’t. Most think just a tweek here and a tweek a player or two then, okay, even play a bit more direct and get a nice shiny manager who has a reputation for doing good things and we got ourselves a team. Yeah, a team gonna finish 15th then 11th then get relegated when all our best players get swiped and start again. Im so over that cycle. Seen it over and over and over again for 50plus tears. And I mean tears not years. Any alternative needs be radical. Or otherwise what’s the point? More of the same. And it will look mad. Yeah for sure it will look crazy. But, Look beyond penalty area kamikaze passing around and possession stats and just think Saints are not fucking playing your game your way anymore. We always fucking end up losing. Let me repeat that : WE ALWAYS END UP LOSING . So we going to lose doing it OUR way? Probably. …… OR- maybe we crack the God mode code for football and start beating these mothers for once, keeping our players and winning stuff. Cue Russell Martin. Maybe he is too radical too mad zeromedals f all points to date. But he certainly brings game. Support him.

Anybody know how much profit the average EPL club makes? Don’t worry it’s not a trick question. The average EPL club does NOT make a profit. There are many ways to lose money owning a football club. Buying the club is the first and best way! There are Teams that are much higher up, play much better - or more effective - football and have way more points than us. And they don’t faff around playing kamikaze football in the penalty area either, usually. These Teams also have prestige trophies medals superstars history big stadia and more supporters than us. Many - most - Saints supporters want us to be like them - trying to win in a rigged system, somehow. Not many people come out and call it for what it is - a massive con - a gobsmackingly huge game of bait and switch. The bait is the “ glory” - the bait is “ shirt sales” “image rights” “ transfer fees” “ Premier league money” and most of all “ global prestige/ media love-in and sport-washing. The switch happens when you look see under the bonnet after you bought one of these clubs. I see clubs carrying debt debt debt and shifting it around like some mental Ponzi scheme. And the clubs who are the cleverest at carrying and shifting carrying and shifting lots of debt usually win the medals the trophies have the superstars and supporters the prestige and the sportwashing also. It’s not even an English thing. Most the powerhouse euro clubs are have ridiculous debt. I don’t think SR have much “feeling” for that way of playing the game of football club ownership. Saints fans are right. They don’t know how to do proper football ownership. They haven’t even sacked RM yet when that’s what you are supposed to do. Get a bunch more debt on board like everyone else and get with the programme SR! No, that’s not my personal advice. My personal advice is stick two fingers up at the programme and defy the prevailing paradigm - and make money doing so. Unlike the rest of the clubs. RM is perfect in that context and despite not getting any points to date if god forbid we should actually make money AND win games then there’s going to be a revolution. But I don’t think the system will like that so the quicker they shut RM and this way of doing it down, the better. Too much money at stake to be allowed to prevail.

One of the questions that SR are most probably analysing is this: Is it better* to ditch RM ( which means pay him off ) and then spend on new players/new manager January, to the limit of FFP, in an all-out bid to avoid relegation or Wait until end of season with RM and current players maybe let him have a forward in Jan and see where we are at? Quite frankly, IF we are going down as seems super likely what’s the point of blowing big borrowed wads -isn’t it more prudent to go down without blowing the budget - to give a bit of a kitty for the Championship recruitment and sales? My rough ready recliner puts the opportunity cost of replacing RM at north of £30m. That’s him and his team gone, cost of recruiting a decent new manager ( and his team) plus the essential at least one or two decent new players the new manager will demand. And that expenditure and club disruption has no guarantee of avoiding the drop. Indeed the most likely scenario is that we do NOT turn into Brighton or Brentford overnight nor manage a “ Great Escape“ nor do most of our first team squad players suddenly turn into EPL standard players even in a different say more pragmatic style of football- see D. Moyes. Aside from TD and MF imo who are predestined stars already. That means relegation either way / but we also spent an extra £30m and turned the club upside down when we maybe didn’t need to. As Farmer Saint has noted, going down and returning along with astute player trading may be a more profitable operating strategy than overspending to try and finish 16th or 13th each year but being constantly broke. I’m not saying I like it or I agree with it- but it’s a credible strategy to make money. Put into that kind of context it does not matter to SR as much as we might imagine if RM takes us down - as long as we can recruit more Tyler Diblings and Mateus Fernandes who want to play this now infamous and instantly recognisable style of football. They are possibly already £50m worth of players and by end of season maybe more. THB now he’s got his cap and that goal is going that way also. Who else wants to join Saints and maybe become the next superstar? I think that if that way of thinking has any traction with SR - and I’ve an inkling it does- I’d be surprised if they gave RM the boot before year end if at all. * “ better = financially better - not necessarily same as better for supporters or better style of football or better hair style of next manager)

I’m in the Northam mate. Here to support Saints in person. 😇COYS.

That does look the approach SR are following. It’s unpopular with fans - but pencilling in a high probability of relegation this season and budgeting spending accordingly is simply good housekeeping. It’s what id do with my own money.

@Tommy Mulgrew Tried to send you this by message but you cannot accept messages so here is my reply: You’ve got a very valid point for sure. I do not disagree with your conclusion ~ that it’s madness, essentially. That we probably got a better chance of staying up changing the style of play ( which means change the manager basically). And you guess right- I’m not so fussed if (when) we do ultimately go down playing this way - as long as we show progress and development that is. My view is that Saints players and Manager are currently not good enough to try what is fairly transparently to copy Man City. We currently get there in some metrics ~ but we also currently fail badly in the most important ones. Hence bottom of the league. I’d like to think we will improve as we learn hard lessons- but only if we stick to the principles. If we go all flip flop it will be worse- imo. Yes it means that “brave” word that everyone hates needs come out. But I guess “ madness” is as good a synonym for what’s going on in its place instead👍 Im glad you understand that I genuinely hope for Saints one day to break through and end this almost non stop struggle we have been in throughout our entire existence just to survive at top table. And that - maybe- madness if that’s how best to describe it- has as good a chance as any to do so. I am probably wrong I am probably too idealistic and I am probably too stubborn for holding onto the belief that it can be done and we are NOT doomed to follow the same just about survive occasionally drop occasionally make a final cycles that Saints have played out over the five Decades plus I’ve been following. If I post stuff like the above on the forum I will inevitably elicit real visceral and personal hatred which is frightening in its intensity sometimes - and so If you are inviting me to my own stoning here I am. Saintly regards, Gio

No one can disagree with the principles of adaptation . But it may take longer than we think though, especially given the players RM has available. In a hypothetical max adaptation. world - if RM were to “adapt” 180 degrees we’d see goal kicks and goalie drop kicks come back into play. Less or zero passing from the back. All mostly to the head of Tall Paul or into space, Tall Paul will try to control it or knock it on and past last man forSulemana to use his pace and skill to get in and shoot/score. Archer / Tyler is on the other wing for same. Our mf has Lesley in it for beef to win headers/challenges plus Lallana or Mateus for skill, Downes can play the quarterback position aiming to hit long diagonal balls for the forward line from slightly behind the other three mf. Goalie is AM for now so kicking the ball far away suits him for sure! That leaves three best remaining defensive players in THB, KWP and Yuki. They only need three cos they won’t be touching the ball much and just need be tidy and swift when we they have ball - before they kick it long to TP Sule and Tyler. Or if they overlap. The main thing in this new adaptation is bypass the ineffective midfield passes and get into last third way quicker. Other adaptation includes man marking from corners - not zonal, and shooting on sight and vastly accelerated advancement of play. A disruptive game like what Bournemouth do. Instructions should be a demand for at least 15 shots per match or no match fee. There, tried to think of as much the opposite of what we do atm but with the squad and best players we have to use. Would it be better than what we do atm? Could hardly get fewer points - though it’s possible, and maybe get worse beatings but it might also work. Is this what is meant by RM adapting the tactics do you think at its most extreme?

It is that. Of course everybody feels bad - most of the posters are incredibly passionate about Saints. We all want to win not lose. But no need to start off that explanation with a bunch of abuse because another supporter see things differently and especially because they have a different view in how long the change required ( to enable us not just to be a survival specialist but actually, for once, be competitive at the top) will realistically take. Very fair points cannot disagree with that. Picking up on the Lallana part - and hypothetically how it might work : IF (and I think my views on this are well known!😁) RM is relieved and AL is asked to step in as caretaker it would /should probably / almost certainly be with an old hand helping him - or vice versa ( him as right hand man to an older gaffer - funnily enough Roma just doing exactly this …with Ranieri) as this is a relegation battle and hardly anyone decent AND experienced is gonna want to buy a almost guaranteed ticket to the Championship - and heap the iginomy of relegation to their resume. Unless there’s a big wad involved and they are past all that ego stuff of younger managers. Names like RVN are just nonsense imo. And I think Moyes would not take it either even though he’s about the best available out there. Or Southgate eeek! A short term deal basically. Not saying Redknapp age but you know the type I mean. Possibly battlescarred enough to play whatever football is required but no expectation of staying up. This foretells Probably an ugly end to the season with no style of play apparent just changing from match to match on a pragmatic basis according to the opposition. Many here argue we will have an even uglier end to season if we don’t change manager. Thats not my view btw. 😂. Nothing wrong with that pragmatic approach either.Its just not been the pathway of last 16 months There are plenty ways to play football. If and when we go down then the Board can assess whether to make the Lallana appointment permanent - or not. And whether to keep old gaffer- or not. But if you asked me to pick a Manager who knows how to get out the Championship and knows our players inside out and already has their commitment and buy in despite what’s happening at present in EPL - I’d say probably the best ( and most cost effective - that IS important to the biz front forget ) is to keep RM. If he goes second best is Moyes with AL on a short term til end season deal and then review.

QED. Come back at me and say you disagree- but preceding it with this sort of stuff - from you and too many others - is why it’s rare you see a pro RM or optimistic aligned post on here. 👍

Another classic non sequitor for you to look at and sigh…. We did well last three matches last season. If we played same way the 43 before we’d have also done better…..and yet that 3 match style has not set the EPL on fire for us has it? You couldn’t make it up. It ain’t necessarily so as they say ~ but at this stage of the pitchfork wielding party pointing out the inconsistency and illogical nature of some of the posts here gets you nothing but a target on your own back also.

I used to work as the Leader of a public facing organisation. I was the ultimate go to person for complaints. One of the most oft heard tropes of complaining was when the complainer switched the issue from being a personal matter to them to being a matter that “many” are upset about. This was often because the original complainer felt that they needed further numbers to back up the complaint. The more the better and the more likely to get a result . The big clue is when the complainer start to move away from the “I” to the plural “ WE”. The idea being this gives more authority and validity to the complaint or issue. Conversely it also indicated to me the paucity of the original complainers issue- the sooner I heard the “ we” the more I knew the issue was more personal than a class suit for example. In Saints case we have c 30,000 at each home game and countless hundreds of thousands around the world. When using the term “ we” it’s important to note that the original complainer has not got a little mini clubhouse of his own at which they debate proposals such as these but rather that the OPhas made a quantum leap in suggesting that anyone who does not agree with him must be a “ deluded supporter” and “ pathetic” because The WE can mean him and three mates a hundred mates but it certainly does not represent the Saints diaspora. Indeed to even imply one speaks for the diaspora probably qualifies as pathetic and deluded more than the original point. The poster in question may well be correct in his criticism - but to use the “ we” when the last home match the Northam was full behind RM suggests he’s taken rather a leap and got overexcited in his trash talk. And I thought I was the one best known for getting a bit ott at times, this poster seems to spend most or all his time in posts attacking saints in one shape or form. Perhaps he should co side wether he is at the right club it offends him so much?

@manjitotally hear you. When you me Cato and Fab stop posting alternate ways of interpreting our situation this place will become an echo chamber. Yiu are right- you want plenty of likes post RM is a cubt or similar, want to be the next one called that? Argue that nomenclature is not necessarily so and reasonably argue why. Pretty standard though. Most people like to hang out in big groups. It’s safer, even if the big group does not truly represent them. You step out of line you become a target too- as you, I and a few others know to our cost.

Very funny - but I hope Russell Martin and all of us continue to fail~ in a positive way because healthy life is all about trial and error. 😁 The embracing of failure - and the supporting of those who dare - is actually a very powerful way to improve - especially the mental side of things - and it’s nothing new and not invented by Ankersen. For example I spent all last season hoping Sam Edozie would take on his right back -by season end he’d virtually lost his courage in that regard - this season I’d almost given up that we have a forward prepared to take players on until Tyler showed he’s not afraid to fail. Yes to be brave with the ball much as that’s apparently something to roll your eyes about on here. Why should it be any different with a Manager? Do we want him to be afraid to fail? He has to dare because Saints don’t have the best players or the most money - and in being daring ( insert stupid or arrogant for those who dislike him personally) that obviously risks failure. Public catastrophic failure. In that regard I can understand if Ankersen has empathy for RM and whole heartedly wishes him to ultimately succeed - it would be a powerful story for everyone who has ever been doubted vilified and abused - on a massive public stage - yet still turned up and ultimately overcame.

You really have a thing about me don’t you. Please put me on ignore if that what you really think. If it’s not what you really think who is the troll?

Understand your point and it’s what many feel so you are in a big majority. If you really want to understand how I see it - not how many others do let’s take that for granted - then I’d like to add that I don’t find this number of defeats and this number of points from a team of this so-so calibre under a newbie EPL Manager, attempting something different, a surprise. My idea of how long it might take to reverse out of the tailspin we were in season before last and start to break into that football aristocracy ceiling is counted in years not weeks. It is not linear either - that’s the ideal but it’s also totally unrealistic. The likeliest trajectory may be more of a roller coaster. So- I’m not a proponent of “ go out and lose on purpose to fulfil some daft principles” I’m simply supportive of our club which i see trying to do something bigger than just survive in the EPL. It’s not working at present but I admire the sentiment and wish them every success. Sainrs( SR) can employ a standard manager play a standard way and get standard results ~ pretty easily. But we will always be little Southampton as a consequence (imo based on our history) and firmly in our place scrapping for crumbs like we’ve done for over a century. We won’t win the league we might get a cup run and we will eventually be back to battling relegation year on year with the bottom ten clubs in the league. Thats not authentic living or competing ~ thats servitude dressed up as football. Fed up of that. Fed up of the built in unfairness of the Leagues system that favours the bigger clubs.

Dear God. Talk about deliberately twisting and misreading my post. Wow. Congratulations.

That’s fair enough Whitey, each to their own. Some find chess exceedingly boring, 5 day test cricket ditto. I’m maybe unusual in my particular appreciating of ( rare) nuances - not the obvious - in those kind of sports and I can see same in the way we play despite the current results. Like you, I’ve watched hundreds if not thousands of Saints matches so I can honestly say I’ve seen the good the bad and the ugly in all different ways with Saints, home and away. Perhaps as I’ve aged and I realise Father Time is catching up with me I’m hoping for something different for Saints than what’s been served the last fifty or so. Because if we do what we always done it’s likely going to end the same way. With tears for Saints fans. Maybe RM is not the answer - but this attitude to bravely stick to your principles surely is. And I respect it more than temporary results.

Nope it’s not happening atm. The strong probability is that SR “ give up”. And my view then is that we will revert to our average of the last fifty years plus that ive been folliwingSaints ie mediocrity. I don’t say it’s the only way really. Miracles happen. But when you’ve watched the best of Southampton fc - and for me that was early mid eighties and it was still not good enough - I do not sense playing on the battlefield of the EPL’s choosing is our best shot anymore. There has to be another way. And it will appear crazy and its advocates will also appear crazy. And it is still incredibly likely to blow up in our fa e as is currently all too apparent. But Saints fans should be proud not angry that we lead the resistance.

We both know the answer is zero. But I hope you understand my point, which is that with FFP and the Premier League the way it is there remains ZERO chance that we can even aspire to becoming one of the aristocratic teams of English ( and world) football. Saints fans can aspire to win promotion to the EPL and then struggle to stay in it - maybe a Cup run, that’s what we have to describe as success. And we have done that quite well over the years. The season we do even mildly well ( say, mid table EPL a Cup Final, we will then sell our best player(s) to the big clubs. Big clubs, who by virtue of ring fencing their monopolistic baked in position via the FFP rules solidify there position further. The results of the matches barely matter anymore as it’s a foregone conclusion. The days when you might see a Huddersfield Leeds or a Derby, a Notts Forest or a Southampton battling for the title are over , finito. So, SR own a business to make money but know that we won’t win the league or anything like that. The cover story is that with this extreme style of play under RM we may be able to make up for all the rest of the barriers to getting up there. The theory goes that if you carry on playing by the big guys rules you will just get the same results we always get - Saints one big cup in a hundred years no league winners trophies…..George Orwell paraphrased fascism as a jackboot smashing into one’s face, forever. Playing the way the others play is the same as agreeing to have that jackboot smashed in our face, forever. It means continuing Being Saintsy like we have been all the time not win anything etc. Playing the way RM asks is 99% going to give the same result - so my view is what’s the loss? I don’t consider relegation as a purely negative setback if that’s what happens. It can be effective negative feedback to improve and refine the system he espouses.Defeat and Losing is often the best form of learning. His way of playing “ Russball” is not even new, just a slightly more exaggerated version of what many clubs already do anyway- but at least he believes if the players master it there is a chance we can win league win cups. My view is we can always return back to mediocrity like we have been practically ALL our history - but I’d rather be outstandingly bad in the cause of being outstandingly good and stay that good than just a forever also ran mediocrity struggling from year to year. I know many will disagree and suggest we will go down multiple leagues and the club will fold etc etc. We’ve been there too btw so I don’t have fear of playing Walsall away in Div2. I have more fear of not trying g to escape the net that we and most the other teams are trapped in. Our freedom and integrity is more important than obsequiousness to the EPL. That under SR and RM we have a set up still prepared to fight the system should be a matter of pride ~ not disgust and fury from supporters.

Classic straw man argument. (a) I agree it has been demoralising for supporters. (b) it has ( often) been fucking dreadful (c) but where the fuck - apart from your insinuation have I said that it’s not? This part of thread is only saying at times bit unlucky. Fuck me, you see my name and make up whatever lying shit you like as a response don’t you?