gecko

Really disappointing result in the end, but at least we saw some positives. I think the manager's tactics have made us more competitive (Brentford aside) in the 5 games he's been here, and that it's taking a little while to erase the garbage tippy-tappy nonsense from the players. It's good to hear comments from the manager afterwards where he's actually noticed what's wrong. The subs gave us nothing, and we need to be much better at game management - thankfully Juric's Torino were well known for tactical fouling, so here's hoping that's the next thing he focusses on with the team; late game capitulation has been an issue for us since Ralph. Trying to stay positive in an overwhelmingly negative season. Now let's go and ruin Forrest's party on Sunday.

I'm not his biggest fan, but to single out a game against the best team in the country as his undoing seems a little unfair (yes yes, i'm aware it wasn't their 1st team playing). My recollection is that he was absolute garbage when asked to play in CD early on in the season, but his DM performances, whilst not as good as Downes, were pretty okay. The other factors in play here are probably more of the reason we're calling him back - Downes is a sick-note, Les might be being recalled himself. Add to that SR probably don't want to dump a load of money on a new CDM in a season we are all but relegated, we may as well try blooding Charles in the prem, and in Juric's system.

Have to say that Fernandes is the one I think I'll be most disappointed to lose if he's gone in the inevitable relegation. The one time the SR scouting has unearthed an actual gem, for a bargain price, he's only 20, and we look likely to have him for a single season - kid's definitely going places, looks a class above the rest of the squad every time I see him play. Fingers crossed SR hold him to his contract, as he'll destroy the Champ

Credit to him. He fully deserved the MotM yesterday. I'll forgive the misses, and ignore the fact that the opposition were pretty dreadful - can only beat what's in front of you, and he was responsible for most of the good attacks we had. I thought he did a great job chasing down the keeper. Half-running then bursting into a sprint just as he got closer. Swans keeper seemed to crap his pants every time, underestimating his actual speed. Tough call. If he plays like that every week, I'd love to keep him. But that's a seriously big IF given what we've seen of him in 2 years. Can always hope.

Obviously not going to win any games if we can't score. But that performance was so much better than the dross we've been treated to this season... And Juric been in charge less than a week. I'm hopeful of seeing results pick up a bit from here onwards, but the finishing today was a big worry.

For teams like us, I think the most important attribute for a manager is their ability to make a team as a whole perform better than the sum of its parts This guy seems to have a solid history of doing this elsewhere. I see no reason to be anything other than optimistic for now. Welcome Ivan.

Not going to argue against the point, felt like there were more long balls last night, and they did (from recollection) generally just end up giving it back to the opposition. However, I never felt quite so on edge last night as I have done in all of Martins games. Like the pressure on our defence was a bit more "normal" as would be expected when any team plays against the Liverpool press, as opposed to our back four slinging it around at the back indefinitely until we've tied ourselves in knots and one of them cocks it up. Maybe it was just me, or that I simply wasn't paying enough attention to the game (also true)

Terrible decision at the end, but I for one am glad that the argument is over a guy and his linesman, who saw it once at full speed and made an incorrect decision. We all know that if VAR was in use, they'd have watched that 18 times and still concluded it wasn't a "clear and obvious error" - and stuck with no foul anyway. We'd still be arguing about getting shafted anyway.

This is one of my biggest concerns, too. On the assumption they are wanting to play the long game here and have factored in the onrushing relegation this season, I could understand why the board aren't jumping the gun. (doesn't mean I agree with it) But 15 games in, and so far he seems to have learnt absolutely nothing at all. So it's a colossal risk to expect that him at the helm - for the rest of this car crash season, and a subsequent year with even lesser players, against lesser opposition - will get us anything other than a repeat of this season were we to get promoted again.

So Everton have lost to two of the worst Southampton sides to ever stink up the Premier League... talk about embarrassing.

agreed. It's easy to say he needs better players for the system. And I fully expect that a team of better players would be doing better in this system. But I also think they'd mutiny soon enough, much like what we saw with Jones, where the better players clocked immediately that he was a total fraudster Better players would simply paper over some of the gargantuan cracks in Martin's playbook. The fact is, we don't have better players, and we still seem insistent on playing this "system" and expecting different results. (I'll caveat that with the latest few games where we have certainly been better going forward, but interspersed with the inevitable cock up at the back)

Couple of James Bree thunderbolts and we're right back in this.

According to SKY, the on-field decision was that Armstrong was interfering (20s in) https://www.skysports.com/football/video/30998/13265286/ref-watch-im-50-50-with-this-was-southamptons-goal-vs-brighton-rightly-ruled-out my opinion, according to the rules, is that Arma was offside for trying to play the ball; therefore offside. But I do agree that there are good arguments for him not actually interfering. My biggest frustration is that we've now been on both sides of the same thing, and been shafted both times. Just like the shirt pulling against Leicester; same thing, different result.

As @saintant has already pointed out, why is there more than one correct outcome? He's either interfering or he's not. If the Arsenal one is adjudged to have been "correct enough" to say he wasn't interfering, then it should also be fair to say that Arma's wasn't also isn't interfering. Irrespective of what thresholds need to be met according the current set of VAR rules, we seem to be in a scenario where we can see two almost identical scenarios and have the laws applied differently. And that, imo, is not the correct result.

This is the point Russell was trying to make. That the on-field decision carries weight... and that because the on field decision was that he was interfering, that the VAR has to consider whether it is a clear and obvious error. When everyone in the world can see that that this was pretty much a carbon copy of the Arsenal one, and many others, that was given the other way. So because of all this "Clear and Obvious" bullcrap, we end up in a situation where two identical issues get opposite results. And all because of the on-field ref's decision. So it stands to reason that, IF the on field decision is more important than simply getting the correct outcome, then we may as well pack all of VAR's subjective powers in, and go back to simply having the ref and linesman officiate the game. A year in the championship has shown me that the game is much better for not having VAR at all, we still argue over the same stupid refereeing decisions, only it takes longer for it to happen, and they still don't get it correct. FWIW, I totally understand why he was given as interfering. I think the arsenal one should have been called off too. However, at the same time, I also think it's reasonable to say that Verbruggen won't have positioned himself any differently had ArmA been onside, or even not there at all. We can't simply assume that if Arma wasn't there, that he will have positioned himself at the far post - no way a prem keeper leaves his near post open to defend a possible shot from the far side. So in that respect, Arma's presence doesn't really impact anything. If we're now saying that the ball passing near anyone who's offside in the box, because he's affecting the keeper, then there should be a lot more stuff being ruled out for this. VAR just needs to get in the bin; or they need to fix it fast. And until then, I'll hope that the Champ don't adopt it.

Enough games to prove his style of football wont work at this level with players of our level - perhaps things would be different if we had City's budget for players. But we obviously don't; so why the board and Russell insist on this suicidal manner of play is beyond me. His comments are even more frustrating. You can't spend all of training, teach people to keep possession all the time by slinging it around at the back, and then bemoan mistakes happening at the back. I'm not going to say outright that this squad would be doing any better with another manager - although it's hard to be doing much worse than bottom tbf - but the frailties of this playing style were obvious to everyone during the Champ season. It's even more so this season - he needs to adapt, and fast, or get out.

Wow, I was only going for a little bit of light hearted sarcasm... but if it helps, I too believe that BBD will get nowhere near the Golden Boot for a lot of reasons, some of which you've called out above.

So what you're saying is that BBD will start scoring next game, and therefore is definitely going to (almost) win the Golden Boot this year. Guess we'll be staying up after all.

If only there were some statistic he could use to aggregate how much of a problem it is... maybe goals conceded? 19 in 9 games PL only, or 25 in 12 if you include the EFL Cup. It's getting beyond ridiculous.

Anyone else keep coming here expecting (maybe even hoping) the title has changed? "Confirmed Gone" The jury's still not 100% in for me. however, It is so frustrating that all the frailties we all complained about last season have not been addressed - I don't know how many times I've read people on here saying something like "if that'd been a Prem team, it would have been punished" - low and behold, fast forward over the summer and we're being punished big time for all the needless passing at the back. A couple more games with no improvement will be enough for me to call for his head.

Couldn't agree more. It's Tuesday night, they have the best part of 5 days to recover. And we all know the 1st team need to sort the results out; this was a free hit to build some confidence Instead, we have Nathan Wood...

The Utd game this Saturday? or the away fixture in Jan? ;-)

Surely this is the perfect opportunity to make use Goztepe. It solves three problems in my mind: 1. It strengthen them massively. He's already proven he's more than capable in the Turkish league 2. It gets him off our wage bill 3. And obviously most importantly, it sticks both fingers up at Trabzonspor for being such smug twats, by not only not giving them the player for cheap, but by actively loaning to a club they'll play against this season.

Not to sound too pedantic, but surely an "understudy" would be someone that is: young, inexperienced etc. Tell me why a 19y/o Shea Charles, who has come from one of the best academies in the world and was already capped internationally, isn't a good fit for a Downes understudy on paper? My issue with him, was him being shoe-horned into CD at the start of the season, making numerous match-losing cock-ups. Once he was actually playing midfield I'd say he was far less concerning - ignoring our horrible results w/o Downes - for a youngster who is likely to get much better with a guy like Downes now in the team.

I'm sure it's already been noted by others, but one of the many things that really grinds my gears about Martin is his (apparent) inability to adapt his game plan for the team we're playing. Every team has a weak point, and ours seems to be exploited with regularity. But it never seems like we know anyone else's - we just continue to knock the ball around a bit, then recycle it. We were terrible last night, and I'd suggest that like many other games, we looked piss-poor because Leicester made us look that way. Their press, and the way they counter, is what did all the damage - it's been clear to everyone that we are a bunch of fluffers when put under some actual pressure near the back. The Liecester coaches, as well as many other teams much worse than them (bristol etc) have taken points from us as a result.