pap

I completely agree with your point on tribalism, eurosaint; the British Empire was essentially built on exploiting the tribal culture. My grandfather, who hails from Karachi, has it running through him like letters in seaside rock. Very distrustful of outsiders and a lot of faith in his own people. And by own people, I really mean his paternal family. Blood trumps all other considerations. You're on shakier ground with your claim that their undemocratic nature leads to sectarian violence. You might be okay saying that their lack of democratic tradition means that they're less open to other viewpoints, but it's the dictatorships that have essentially kept sectarian violence under wraps. It was when Saddam and pals power base was removed that the sectarian sh!t really hit the fan.

I'd have thought that you'd have been well unhappy about people we've supported for centuries essentially saying "f*ck you, UK. This money is ours". I sit corrected.

How am I wrong, exactly? I'm claiming that the Falklanders have been happy to be British when that mean task forces zooming over the Atlantic in the early 1980s to bail them out. Decidedly less British when selling oil rights. Which part of your post addresses that double standard?

I'm not calling you a lapdog or a liar. Blair was both, and for a time, was in charge of this country. Political malfeasance is nothing new; as you point out - I'd have a hard time finding a country where this doesn't happen. However, we normally punish it when we find it. By leaving Blair untouched, we give tacit approval to his actions. He is a war criminal and he should be tried.

Again, you're making a point for me. British when they want protection. Falklanders when selling oil rights.

Well you've made my big point for me. I don't know any Falklanders either, yet I've met countless people from these islands, and spent a good deal of my life living in different parts of the union. As a consequence, I've seen much that makes individual or regional lifestyles that makes us different, but on the flipside, much that makes us very similar. The funny thing is, on the subject of oil exploration, the Falklanders feel decidedly less British. They are looking forward to that cash themselves. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10147350 Windfalls going into a sovereign fund Not the UK. Fancy that!

That's what it really boils down to. We can pretend its about self-determination as much as we like, and the Argies can go on about their so-called sovereignty. As usual, it's all about the lucre. There is simply no other reason that UK PLC would spend 75M per annum on keeping 3K people and 300K sheep protected from military threats.

I'll not deny that I'm looking to stir it up. I'll leave precise definitions up to the interpretation.

I think the Bush administration would have loved to have a go at Iran. They put them on the Axis of Evil ( FFS, it sounds like the villains from an 80s kids cartoon ) quick smart. At the time, and with a relatively new Supreme Leader, the Iranians made overtures to the US on a number of issues. Their price? Just wanted to be taken of the "Axis of Evil" thing. I don't personally think we have anything to fear from Iran. Say whatever you like about that regime; it has never acted as an aggressor ( despite what Dubai Phil might tell you about the Tunb Islands that were occupied pre-revolution ). I think their intent is to get the bomb and say "don't f**k with us". If I were in their shoes, with US forces on either side of me, I'd probably be thinking about doing the same.

You're right to point out that in a sense, we all live in our own Little Britains. Hell, even my Liverpool is different to someone else's Liverpool. However, all of the people you mention are tied into the country in ways that the Falklands is not, relative vicinity chief amongst them. We travel the same roads, we visit the same places, we go to sleep at around the same time, drink in the same bars. Pretty much anywhere in the UK is easily accessible for any citizen ( rural citizens more bother ), as is Europe or the rest of the world. We have a choice of where we educate our kids, where we get to live, what we have to eat. The Falklanders have one commercial air service off the islands, can't have much of a city culture, can't do trade with their nearest neighbours. Must be a total inconvenient pain in the arse, but doesn't really sound much like life in Britain.

Thinking about it Tokes, the only people I know who didn't fall into the Forces were the cadet types and people with a family history.

Citizen, like many words in the English language, has multiple meanings. The only one that applies to Falkland Islanders is that they have the protection of the mother state. How many Falklanders do you know, Charlie?

You could say the same about any issue in politics. The general public is notoriously apathetic. Perhaps you are happy to be a citizen of a country of liars and lapdogs. I'm not.

Not really a sliding scale thing, Minsk. I can well appreciate that from your position in chosen exile, you personally feel more British than ever. Not hard to feel the tug of your roots when you're far from them. In terms of contemporary life, you have missed almost a decade. I'm also not sure how relevant your service is to your Britishness. It sort of hangs on the idea that everyone signing up is doing so for altruistic and/or patriotic reasons. Are you saying that's the case? Quite a few of the boys I know in the forces basically joined because they were overgrown boys incapable of looking after themselves at the time. Pretty sure a couple of them would have ended up in nick if the Forces hadn't sorted 'em out. I know that everyone signing up is prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice, but let's not pretend they're all there to take a bullet for HRH. It's no coincidence that the most deprived areas of the country have such disproportional representation.

Yeah, long thread. Happens.

Just nipping you in the bud quickly. I don't like your debating style, which is essentially to make a point but try and condescend in the process. You just can't be that outraged, Charlie. If you want to have a discussion on themes of nationality, let's do it. Just drop the "Aghast of Hampshire" act. It's f**king old.

Devil's advocate. How much does it cost the British taxpayer to look after these 2.8K people?

It's actually a very broad view of being British, demanding bugger all except that you live in Britain and experience life here. I'm well aware that the little enclaves do their best to remain British. Nothing like being here though, so let's not pretend that living off the coast of South America with 2.7K other people is anything like being part of a society of 60,000,000 people. You want to get on your nationalist high horse and start underlining things like a w**ker though, don't let me stop you. It's amusing.

Y'see, my plan was to convince Putin to give me a bit of Russia so I could establish a new worker's paradise I think my general point is that these people are bleeding miles away. Being in Britain is a big part of being British. These people know little of the M6. Did the Falklands have a rave scene in the 90s? Was caught up in the civil liberties movements of the 1960s? The industrial action of the 1980s? Are they as rudderless as us now? A big part of nationhood is the shared experience, imo. I just think the experience of a Falklander might be quite different to your mainland Brit.

You do not involve major corporations in clandestine Foreign Office deals unless you know it's happening. We've proven beyond all reasonable doubt that there was a conspiracy to get us into Iraq. The real question is what we do about it. My view is that Blair has to go the Hague. His deception is a massive stain on our national culture, which is supposed to be based on fair play. Instead, we're proven liars on the global stage. Everything we say is suspect, because our PM jumped into bed with old-school fascists and lied to his country to further their agenda. We need to recognise that he lied, acknowledge the grisly consequences, face up to our own part in this mess and pack the f**ker off to the Netherlands. It's not like he'd even be a sacrificial lamb; he's guilty as hell and should not escape punishment just because he happened to run our country.

They had plans for Iraq before 9/11. Interesting read below. http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/new-documents-show-bush-administration-plan Everything about Bush Jr's presidency stank. Stolen election, massively hawkish from the start, wilfully abandoning the Palestinian-Israeli peace process, attacks on civil liberties, the utter indifference shown during Hurricane Katrina or indeed, the response on 9/11. Let's not forget the fact the bloke was a f**king idiot. I do not know many people who are less intelligent than George W Bush appeared to be. He was President because someone wanted him to be President. No true patriot wants a moron for their head of state. You'd only really want a moron in place if he wasn't going to be making many decisions. Even during his campaign, he presented himself as a C student with good advisors. When you look at the correlation between PNAC members, the Bush Administration and the calamity that quickly befell their country as they took office, it's not unreasonable to ask whether it is a coincidence.

I very much enjoyed that. Seem to remember the club doing something similar for one of our lower league games. It's always interesting to see multiple dimensions to a given event; gives one a very complete view and additionally, provides tons of material for armchair over-analysts. There's always going to be an element of "celebrity Heisenberg" about these fly on the wall experiments. Gerrard in particular seemed very aware of the camera. The attitude of the players throughout was interesting; total game face, and almost utterly indifferent in every one of their encounters - but I'm not sure that you can read too much into it. Our Poche is a feisty little bugger too. I've no doubt he gave them a proper boll0cking at half-time. Was very shrewd at the end, refusing to play the hype game over Clyne.

Genius

Fk it. Let's all move there then. That'd really annoy the Argies.

Taking that to its logical conclusion, shouldn't we be annexing the Costa Del Sol? I know we've got the veneer of self-determination here, which is fair enough. On a completely different level, it makes no fkn sense. You wanna be British? That's grand. There's a whole country of us here. Truth is, they don't really want to be British. They wanna remain as Falkland Islanders, and want to keep the UK as a mother country because it's a sh!tload more stable than the situation 300 miles away.