pap

That's really the scariest thing about it, and something I've often considered when stuck in an accident-related jam on the M6. A couple of minutes earlier, and it could have been me and mine, etc.

There is a very good article on the Guardian at the moment about how when it comes to road deaths, we essentially turn a blind eye and treat it as the cost of doing business. Excerpt:

Which is a bloody shame in my view. If there is one thing that I've learned in my 36 years of existence, it's that no political party is worth my allegiance or unswerving support. I find it amazing that so many people see either Labour or Conservative as the sole prism for addressing their concerns. For hopefully the last time, no political party cares about us. They just care about how they look to us. Not remotely the same thing.

Well, it's not really a party issue, VW. All governments will let loads of undesirables into the country. That's just a consequence of immigration. Even if someone has a clean criminal record, how do you know that said person is not an evil genius who simply hasn't got caught? That said, this latest breach has taken place under the Coalition's watch, so you can't really blame anyone else for this particular incident.

I must admit, was a little shocked to see the dissing of the HND.

Reading between the lines, I am guessing this is what happened:- i) cuts / lack of investment leads to four hour waiting times at Heathrow ii) police etc have to spend time sorting out public order problems at Heathrow because of four hour waiting times iii) someone says "we need to cut these massive waiting times". Many solutions on the table, only one that doesn't involve spending more money. iv) Option cheap is chosen, and security checks are relaxed v) news story breaks vi) Government claims to be fuming over the breach Now, this is what will probably happen.... i) More and more evidence comes out that the decision came from on high ii) Teresa May ends up resigning iii) New minister arrives, faces four hour waiting times at Heathrow.... Welcome to the merry-go-around of British politics....

So was he a little 'c*nt' the moment he was pushed into the world? Did he go to the St. Cuthbert's School for Troubled C*nts? As I said before, this behaviour is not ingrained. It develops over a long period of time and we all have a part to play in that. We have become indifferent to the concerns of others, and collectively, we have produced a society where teenagers do unspeakable things. Wes picked me up earlier on a point earlier on about him knowing the difference between right and wrong. Barring the mentally ill angle, he almost certainly does. However, that didn't stop him from doing it anyway. I know I challenged Alps earlier on his credentials to comment on the state of Britain's youth, but he has a point. Let's not forget that we had riots in our major cities a few months ago. Pretty much the same thing happened back then, some people explained it as simple thuggery when actually, there was a ****load going on. Did the rioters know the difference between right and wrong? Absolutely. Did they do it anyway? Yes they did. I'm not tarring all teenagers with the same brush, but clearly, we have a sizeable fraction who hold society in contempt, else they wouldn't riot, kill each other in the streets or smear war memorials with their own sh*t. That is a dangerous situation to be in.

Fair enough Wes; I can see where you are coming from on that point, and honestly, you've got me bang to rights on that. Again, decent point. If I've conceded the first point, I've got to concede the second. Or, as I said before, those events simply do not have the significance to him that they do to people from previous generations. Or as you say, it could be crass stupidity or mental problems. To be fair to you, you're at least considering the circumstances behind the events - which is a considerable improvement on some of the opinions here. At the end of the day, we need to ask why this kid felt it was okay to do this. Even if we accept the alpine explanation that he's just a 'c*nt', we still have to ask why we've got so many of them in our midst, yet at the same time, retain some perspective about the gravity of the crime. Ultimately, the biggest affront here is to what people believe, whereas what we should really be asking is what damage was actually done to society and why. Compared to a lot of other teenage crime, this is nothing save what we make of it - and as with any youth problem, the responsibility is ultimately on the people who are supposed to be guiding them to become responsible citizens.

No, I'm saying he did an incredibly stupid thing, and I'm saying he probably wasn't equipped to realise how wrong the act was the symbolism of the act. Are you saying that every kid who attends war memorials is going to be rapt in attention? That they'll take everything in and process the information as we would like them to? Who is being naive now? You're assuming that once a kid attends one of these services, they'll be fully clued up about the horrors of war and the sacrifices our ancestors made. I disagree with that assertion. I'd expect a fair proportion of teenagers would not be fully engaged in such events, regardless of the importance their teachers place upon them.

So let me recap. You're dismissing British youth because you moved here for four years, and decided to move back. Can I ask which ghetto in Southampton you moved to? What was so bad about your experience that you felt compelled to flee the country? How did you reach your conclusions? Well, that actually says more about you than it does me. I think we've already established that you know nothing about the city I live in.

Whereas your position, in Southern Austria, is the perfect vantage point to assess the state of British youth.

I don't think anyone is excusing the behaviour. As I've said before, he'll get punished according to the severity of the crime. No-one was harmed. The people who he disrespected had MUCH worse stuff to deal with than this, involved as they were in some of history's bloodiest conflicts. I understand the indignation, but we need to prosecute people based on what the law says, and not how upset people are about the perceived heinousness of the crime. The law says that this is criminal damage, and he'll be charged on this.

I'm saying that teenagers don't always make good choices. I'm not lumping them all together. As a father of a sixteen year old, I know all too well that there are gradations in the behaviour of kids, hell, even gradations of behaviour with my own kid. If you have a problem, any problem, the best way to solve it for good is to understand why it happened and work out how to prevent it from happening again. You solve nothing by simply assigning a label like 'c*nt' to the problem and presenting that as a solution. What is 'dealing with them properly'? As I said before, not seeking an excuse - seeking an explanation.

To be fair, hypo - it took a comparatively freakish election result for me to find that out. I used to have a lot of time for them, but no more.

So are you saying that grafitti on a monument is worse than robbery, burglary, violent assault or murder? It's a question of perspective, eurosaint - and people have their own take on how important this is. I think it's regrettable that someone has done this, but if you think about who was actually harmed, doesn't actually seem that serious compared to other stuff that goes on.

I think you've made some interesting statements in isolation. The problem is that they are already viewed as "power for its own sake", and have always been about that. They tell people what they want to hear in the full knowledge that they'll never have to deliver. The problem for them is that this time, their bluffs have been well and truly called. They are ineffective, and have demonstrably abandoned their principles to stay in power with the Conservatives. Either way, they are finished for a generation. At least by quitting on principle, they can pretend they still have some.

Completely agree. He's been nicked, he'll be found guilty and he'll be punished accordingly.

That is your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but you're starting from a point of truth that doesn't exist, namely that the concept of personal responsibility is universal. It isn't. One point on which we possibly are agreed is that it should be. But either way, I disagree with your analysis. People caring about the reasons why things are happening is not the reason our country is so f'ked up. There are innumerable factors at play here. However, I'm happy to be proved wrong and am open to other ideas. How do you think that personal responsibility could be enforced? How do you think we should instill the value that it isn't right to deface war memorials? Let's hear your plan on how you will sort this all out ( I won't hold my breath in anticipation ). The law says he is an adult when he is 18. Good enough for me. No, I just think that he's best left to the justice system, which is actually what is happening. And again, what is Special K doing to address the issue of this youngster?

Whereas I have always been of the opinion that you are trying to demonise and sensationalise what he did. There is no denying that what he did was wrong, but really, it's just grafitti, and the men that the monument honours endured a lot worse than that while they were alive. So c'mon. Where's the trivialisation? Is what he did worse than the other crimes I mentioned?

And way back on topic:- Greece may leave euro, leaders admit. Italy will be the next crisis. Their interest rate for borrowing is now 7%. The Greek crisis was triggered when their interest rates hit 7.5%.

I think a point might have been missed here. Whether your candidate is returned or not, even if your preferred candidate has no realistic chance of winning, you are still expressing a true preference as to how you would like the country to be run. Those votes are counted and tallied, and can give an indication of public opinion. What does being realistic entail, and how is it better than expressing your own true opinion?

You're proceeding from one hell of an assumption here, hypochondriac - that everyone at age eighteen was as underdeveloped as you were at that age. I'll leave that conundrum to the huddled masses of SaintsWeb. If they're legally allowed to vote, then they're part of the political process, whether you like it or not.

Well, experience is a progressive realisation of your own ignorance, at least with me. It goes without saying that your perception of life gets more nuanced as you learn more about it, but it's also true that people can become entrenched in their own viewpoints. Sometimes, the young ask the best questions; ones we forget are important.

Being pro-EU or anti-EU isn't a permanent state of affairs - it has got to be weighed up and re-evaluated on a continual basis, especially when the landscape changes. Our relationship with the EU is ever changing, as are the benefits it brings. You only have to look at the stability fund that has been introduced. Each member state needs to contribute a certain amount of funds. States that cannot contribute enough will lose voting rights. To me, that's a dangerous centralisation of power. You could almost argue that Merkel will achieve with economics what Hitler failed to achieve through force of arms. We're also taking a big risk by helping to prop it up. Instead of paying money directly to the stability fund, we'll probably pay the IMF, who will pay the EU. One more middleman - same difference. However, I've been Euro-sceptic for a while, and one of the things that impressed me about the Lib Dems was on their dignified stance for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Fair enough - I'll take you at your word on that. You have to admit though, the U-Turns on the big issues have been tremendously damaging for them. We will see, sir. We will see. The winner will have to start a gloat thread

In the grand scheme of things, what he did even isn't that bad. Take away the historical context and it's just graffiti. Teenagers do worse things every day, robbery, burglary, violent assault and murder.