pap

James Beattie?

I have been completely oblivious to that tune. Must have blocked it out. As soon I read it the music went off in my head, and for that, I condemn you

Well, they've been musically bankrupt since Kingston Town. Symmetry has been achieved.

The mods should install an add-on to the site, detecting any mention of Lee Holmes/David Connolly, and automatically putting "(when fit)" after each mention

Thank you, Lord D. Excellent post. Those families have been through hell. I watched the entire debate last night. Even the stuff that is out in the open now is some harrowing sh*t, and I think the filth and lies smeared on Liverpool supporters is a big contributor to people's uninformed attitudes on the city and its inhabitants. When the authorities invent stories about supporters urinating and stealing from the dead, how could it not? This could have happened to any team. It is Liverpool's bad luck that it was them. It's a national disgrace that they were not only blamed for it, but accused of committing morally heinous offences in the national press just to save a few coppers'/politicians' careers. What has been particularly unpleasant about the Saints Web debate has been people using their prejudice to try and disprove hard-won truths that are already on the public record.

I think by "impress", he probably meant "weren't lying through their teeth". I look forward to all of these issues being cleared up for good when the Hillsborough Independent Panel publishes the findings based on disclosed materials.

So what evidence did you use in coming up with your observations? Put it this way. I live in Liverpool, and apart from a couple of sojourns down south, have done so since 1994. My missus is a scouser, as are the kids and all the in-laws. I spent three years studying here, six years working alongside scousers and I still live here now. Now, I'm not saying that I have never seen someone play the victim. Happens about as much as it does everywhere else. However, you're generalising to the point where it appears you're ascribing these qualities to the entire city. So I'm telling you that you're wrong based on experience of living in Liverpool for over 15 years. What is the basis of your observations?

Alps, you're starting with the "wallowing in self-pity" thing as if it's a point of truth. It isn't, it's offensive short-cutting and I don't accept it - even if that is Boris Johnson's assessment of the situation. Frankly, living in Manchester doesn't qualify you to speak on Liverpool. It'd be like living in Pompey and expecting to get a balanced view of Southampton from the locals.

Well worth a read.

Or, simply, that any failure of the police is ultimately the failure of the Government. I'll be very interested to see how far up the chain of command it went. Certainly, the contrast.org site paints and interesting picture of the involvement of the West Midlands police in the cross-force review.

Don't think it's that at all. Liverpool has a keen sense of social solidarity, in which the community will take on the cause of individuals. Funny. People go on about not knowing their neighbours, or a lack of community. You've got places like Liverpool that'll stick together when they feel they've been wronged ( and whatever else you might feel about Hillsborough, the fact that the authorities put themselves before the people who suffered is a grievous wrong ). So that's self-pity and arrogance, is it? I call it looking out for your fellow man. It's a crying shame there isn't more of it in the south.

Did a Liverpool boy give you some sort of hiding at some point, or are you just this angry all the time?

I'd have to disagree on this. The Taylor report has cited policing failures as the cause of the disaster. That's not even in question at this point. The problem is that a number of people in official positions deliberately put their own interests before the public, choosing to run smear campaigns to discredit the bereaved and fellow fans instead of admitting their own culpability.

Depends on how large that is presented in the context of all the other evidence. Remember that this disclosure will also cast light on events after the disaster, such as the attempts by South Yorkshire Police to shift the blame onto the fans.

It's not just about that, is it? It's about a concerted effort to shift the blame from the police to the fans and treating the bereaved as criminals. This is something that affected everyone at the stadium. The police failed in their duties entirely, then blamed it on the fans to save their careers, passing lies to the media to turn public opinion by those traumatised in the disaster, eagerly swallowed by the gullible. I personally don't think you know the first thing about scousers, save what you've seen on Bread, Brookie or Harry Enfield.

The disclosed evidence will show that they have been very hard done by. I have a lot of respect for them for toughing it out and not taking no for an answer.

The Hillsborough Independent Panel and families to see all Government documents, full disclosure, no redactions. Version released to the public will be redacted to protect junior officials and specifics about victims. Debate on Beeb now

A few news stories have linked Dave Jones, erstwhile of Southampton and Cardiff, with the vacant Pompey job. Normally I'd be miffed if a former Saints manager went to Pompey, but given the circumstances behind his exit from the club, I wouldn't blame Jones for taking the role. Would add some extra spice to this year's derbies, if that's even possible. Thoughts?

Love it. Brilliant site.

Promotion and relegation are essential for the sport to remain fresh.

I think the families are looking for the truth of what went down that day, no matter what it is. Having lived in the city for nigh on 20 years now, Hillsborough remains a highly sensitive issue, and rightly so. If the disaster had affected Saints fans, and we had lost 96 of our supporters, wouldn't we still be seeking answers? Especially if it appeared that the authorities of the day were partly responsible and tried to lay the vast proportion of the blame at the fans in question? The provenance of the fans doesn't even come into question, and we should take a dim view of anyone that uses their stereotypical view of Liverpudlians as the cause of the problem. We police football matches to ensure public safety. On this particular day, policing utterly failed in this regard.

The first game was truly awesome. Apparently, this is better. Probably a day one for me.

Mate, if that's what it is, I'm all for it. Some of our passing yesterday was magnificent, and teams can't do anything if the opposition is retaining possession. Beautiful team to watch at times and despite the occasional lapses in concentration, just seem to have so many of the basics down. The series of corners at the end that Derby got were nerve-jangling as they were happening, but the team dug in and did their job time after time. So if your contention is that we're so good we make others look crap, I'd have to agree

I've upgraded mine. Was relatively painless. I had to re-download my apps (tbh won't re-download them all) but otherwise, no problems whatsoever. Music and stuff was backed up onto the computer before the install, and put back onto the iPhone. It seems to be quicker. Just general navigation and the like - but that's possibly because the phone has essentially been reformatted (remember how quick your computer used to be?). The new text notifications are pretty slick as well.

Most people in their thirties or over would have seen this, but it's worth a re-watch and definitely worth checking out if you've never seen it. Arsenal 1933 vs Liverpool 1991, from Harry Enfield and Chums. [video=youtube;Nc2To-pKMSg] "It's as if the ball is glued to his feet"