Lallana's Left Peg

It's possible, though I'd like to think Koeman and Reed have been around long enough and have enough ears to the ground to work out things properly. Journo's on twitter saying Saints messed this up. Hard to substantiate but it feels like we dropped the ball here.

So, what on earth was this legal right stuff about then? Did we mess up?

Whether you get animated about it or not, asking the question is because you believe something went wrong and the club could be criticised for it. I'll wait until Spurs announce the deal before I ask what all this 'legal right' ******** was about - as we either messed up believing we were entitled or backed down like a little *****. The alternative of course is that we pursue legal action which would be a good laugh.

The way that both Koeman and Reed talked about injuries to Bertrand AND Mugabi meant that Martina was signed - as though perhaps he can indeed cover at left back. At least that is how I interpreted it.

I'd think the same no matter who he signed for - if the club are going to communicate as they have about him signing then they set expectations - unless we take the default that any communication from the club is rubbish. But I'd prefer not to think that way and think we have a bit more nous as a club. The only exception would be if a club came in for him at the last minute. But I believe that Spurs were said to be interested in him in May, therefore I don't think they were a last minute deal type thing.

The club didn't talk about hopes - they talked fairly black and white about the situation. I don't think this was a cursory 'we'd like to sign Toby', it was very much a 'we believe he wants to join us and we think we're favourites to'. And of course **** happens, and of course we aim to achieve things and we don't. And whether or not Toby signs isn't significant in my life either, but as we all want Saints to do well when the club talk about things we look at the tone of the message and want to understand whether or not its an expectation. There was far too much noise coming out of the club around Toby to make me think the club believed anything other than they were favourites to sign him. So when it goes tits up I think the club are worthy of criticism - or at least a question being asked of: What happened? I don't just blindly think 'ok, whatever' because clearly something went wrong somewhere.

That's not an answer to my question. If the club is to say things publicly and they don't happen, then they will get criticised. As would any club / business etc. But you seem to suggest they shouldn't be for it?

The club cannot control what Toby does. The club can control the messages they give to the fans. They said - as recently as Monday (the day he apparently had the first part of his medical at Spurs) - that they believed he wanted to join. As a fan I of course understand the reasons why he would want to join Spurs. Location, money, better team etc. - all fair and valid reasons. No need to be upset about that. What I don't like is when my club start to give public messages about no player being sold until we have a new Manager and then 48hrs later Rickie Lambert sold when we have no Manager, when they say they are confident that Clyne will sign a new deal and then he doesn't, and when they repeatedly say (and leak to the media) that they are confident Toby will sign and he wants to join and then he signs for Spurs. All that misinformation heightens expectations and definitely increases disappointment when the opposite happens. It would have been far easier to deal with it if we kept our mouths shut.

So when Saints leak to the media they are confident of signing a player, and when Saints themselves through the Manager say the player wants to sign, and then said player joins another club for what appears on the face of it to be a fee and wages we can afford, you just automatically assume that's ok and the club is immune from criticism for it?

The Board / club leaked to their media contacts that they were confident of signing Toby. That starts to set some expectations with fans. Our Manager said the player wanted to join us. That starts to set some expectations with fans. Toby is signing with Spurs. They can be for all of the valid reasons you suggested. But the club sort of set themselves up here for a bit of criticism, don't you think?

Potential stream: http://www.gofeed2all.eu/watch/355283/1/watch-rb-leipzig-vs-southampton.html

If he simply preferred Spurs and was never going to join Saints then that is fair enough, but I wish Koeman had kept his mouth shut about the player wanting to join us and the club leaking information to that effect as well. If he would have happily joined us but Spurs stole a march on us because we thought we were being clever with some legal clause stuff then that is deeply disappointing, moreso given the relatively low fee for a player of his quality. Lessons to be learned one way or another. Lets hope his replacement is anywhere near as good.

If that was the case it would be nice for the club (and club leaks) to stop talking about how he would be happy to join Saints and we're trying to sign him and believe we're entitled to. It makes us look stupid. If he's chosen Spurs then it makes this legal battle a little more fun for me - a chance to screw Atletico and / or Spurs for a bit.

I agree, but conversely, there are also a crowd who cannot abide posters who dare to challenge things the clubs actions, or ponder negative thoughts on something. The two extremes exist.

I think we're doing well so far - got decent looking players for two needs (right-back and striker / attacking midfielder). Goalkeeper on loan who looks like a good transfer given the circumstance too. If we mess up the Toby deal and don't adequately replace, and / or if Morgan leaves and we don't replace him effectively enough then the first team is weaker on paper.

I think Juanmi will play off the main striker, and we have Mane who can do that too. However, I think it would be good to have a creative player who plays a little deeper. We tried Tadic in that role (in the three in midfield) a few times last season and it didn't really work.

Koeman said this in the interview (when talking about Juanmi): "...I think in that position, in the offensive midfield position, the position behind the striker, we need some more players that we can use in that position and that makes more competition to the team..." That's a plural, and not once in that interview did he say Juanmi was the only signing he'd make in that position. Maybe it will be, but that is not what he said.

In his interview last week Koeman said he is looking at other number 10 / attacking midfielders.

Simon Peach (who is reliable, yes?) claims that Osvaldo cost Saints £25m NET of any loan fee / wage contribution we received from his spells elsewhere. If you take into account his ~£13m transfer fee that means we have paid him £12m in wages and to leave the club, during just 6 months playing time at the club. If anything my £8m is conservative, but hey ho. If you believe you have a legal right to own a player for £6.8m then of course you are dumb to bid £11.5m. Though the Daily Echo said we'd be willing to pay more than £6.8m to make the deal happen. But obviously we didn't, for whatever reason. That gave Spurs a chance to do a deal. Time will tell if he it is a deal that can go through. The wildcard in all this is that Toby is clearly willing to join Spurs and isn't waiting for Saints. That, I fear, is our mistake. Hard for him to turn his back on Spurs after a medical there, isn't it?

Us believing our agreement to sign him for £6.8m has led to Spurs agreeing a deal to sign him for £11.5m and now it seems like it would take a remarkable circumstance for him to be a Saint. £5m is not insignificant of course, but when we paid Osvaldo £8m+ to bugger off is £5m to ensure that a top class player (who reportedly wants to sign for us) doesn't go elsewhere too much of an ask? Who knows. But I feel he would be worth it.

Great, not only does he sound ****, he's stupid.

If the 'share of the fee' is the £1.5m we were always owed then it feels like we've got nothing for kicking up a fuss. If it is more I suppose we have something out of it. But then only 24hrs ago Koeman said he felt like Toby wanted to join us. Club / Koeman have had the wool pulled over their eyes if this is true...

I think it's weird how he needs it on both knees - either a hereditary / genetic thing or was he a naughty boy on holiday and did something he shouldn't be doing? Or just a freak accident? But both knees at the same time is strange.

One of the few positives from last summers mauling of our players is that we got very good fees which set some lovely precedents for the prices we sell players for. And also gives us the financial footing to never actually need the money either.

Ogbonna has a touch of the Mangala's about him. West Ham are stocking up on centre backs now - Tomkins, Reid (80k a week!), Collins, potentially Ogbonna - all senior players who will expect to start.